Does CircadianBJC Exist?

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Bella
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby Bella » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:20 pm

Hi Brian,
Apologies for the long delay between replies. My intention is to reply at least once/day per the instructions.
Thanks for letting me know :). Good that you intend to come back to once a day. The intensity is needed. I hope you have been looking throughout your absence. If not, let’s try to get the intensity back.
In looking there is not the absence of sensation. There are periods of not being aware of thoughts, sounds, bodily sensations, and the like. However, I have not been able to experience a period without any sensation at all. 
How is it noticed that one was not aware?
How can it be known?

Bella:
Do objects actually exist?
Brian: Yes.
Exercise 1:
Take a cup. Put it in front of you on a table. Look at it for a while. What do you see? Is there a clear border between the cup and its background? How is the cup distinct from its background? Can you see the backside of the cup? How can it be known there is a backside of the cup?
Exercise 2:
Take a cup. Take it in your hands. Close your eyes. Describe what you feel. Is there a clear line between your fingers and the cup? How is it known there is a cup present?

How does the cup come into existance? Describe the proces to me from senseperceptions and thoughts. What is it that knows the cup?
Does the cup 'exist'? (Remember to look only from your actual experience, don't let yourself be fooled by blended sensations, interpretations, labels and thoughtstories).

I assume you are referring to an awareness that is separate from experience? If so, no. There is not an awareness outside of experience. 
Is there another way to look at awareness?
Please correct me here if nothingness can be known and I'm overlooking something fundamental Bella
The way you describe it, it seems to me that you think of nothingness as a state. But what is a state other than interpreted senseperceptions with labels? Do 'states of mind' exist?
If there is nothing there, how/by what can it be known?


Bella

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CircadianBJC
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby CircadianBJC » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:51 am

Hi Bella,
How is it noticed that one was not aware? How can it be known?
It appears to be noticed in retrospect. In thought about what was known and not known, but not in the moment.
Exercise 1:
Take a cup. Put it in front of you on a table. Look at it for a while. What do you see?
I see color, shadows, texture, light.
Is there a clear border between the cup and its background?
No. There is a blending at parts around the edges and the periphery of vision. Not a clear border between cup and background.
How is the cup distinct from its background?
Distinct colors and textures of the cup from my vantage point. However, these distinctions are not inherent in the cup vs. background - just from my view.
Can you see the backside of the cup?
No.
How can it be known there is a backside of the cup?
I can walk around to the other side of the cup and look at it. I can also reach out, turn the cup around, and look at the former backside which is not the frontside.
Exercise 2:
Take a cup. Take it in your hands. Close your eyes. Describe what you feel.


A change in temperature, perceived weight, and a smooth texture.
Is there a clear line between your fingers and the cup?
No. No distinct boundary where fingers end and cup begin.
How is it known there is a cup present?
All that is known is sensation. I can not know that a cup is present based on my present experience. There is a thought/assumption that a cup is present based on a memory of taking a cup in my hands and closing my eyes.
How does the cup come into existance? Describe the proces to me from senseperceptions and thoughts.
Perception of a decrease in temperature, a felt texture without bumps or edges, a thought of "smooth", a memory that an object I refer to as a "cup" was picked up and held in hands, there is a thought of "cup" and a visual image similar to the cup that was picked up. The cup comes into existence with eyes closed through thought/memory.
What is it that knows the cup?
The cup is not known. Sensations associated with a thought/memory of cup are known in awareness.
Does the cup 'exist'? (Remember to look only from your actual experience, don't let yourself be fooled by blended sensations, interpretations, labels and thoughtstories).
No, the cup does not 'exist' in actual experience. This is now clear. Thank you for this pointing Bella.
Brian: I assume you are referring to an awareness that is separate from experience? If so, no. There is not an awareness outside of experience.

Bella: Is there another way to look at awareness?
I don't believe so. I don't believe one can look 'at' awareness at all, but rather only 'from' awareness.
The way you describe it, it seems to me that you think of nothingness as a state. But what is a state other than interpreted senseperceptions with labels?
From recent looking, it seems that my view of nothingness may have only been thoughts about what was previously experienced. Recalling not being aware of a sound before is not nothingness as you point out, but rather a potential combination of sensations blended together without boundaries.
Do 'states of mind' exist?


It does not appear so. There are many perceptions, thoughts, emotions, arising in and out of awareness. No clear states with boundaries are observed.
If there is nothing there, how/by what can it be known?
Nothing cannot be perceived and therefore nothing cannot be known. In my experience, there are thoughts about specific sensations not being known ... but this is a thought, which is not nothing, about prior experience that included other sensations blended together, arising in and out of awareness. I believe this notion of nothing not being able to be known is now clear Bella.

- Brian

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Bella
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby Bella » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:17 pm

Hi Brian,
Bella:
How is it noticed that one was not aware? How can it be known?
Brian: It appears to be noticed in retrospect. In thought about what was known and not known, but not in the moment.
Experience is what one is aware of. (Of course there is no-one there to be aware). So not being aware is impossible. There is no such thing or state as ‘not being aware’. Can you see this?
Bella:
How can it be known there is a backside of the cup?
Brian: I can walk around to the other side of the cup and look at it. I can also reach out, turn the cup around, and look at the former backside which is not the frontside.
This answer is correct from intelligent thinking. But let’s look again from your direct or actual experience (which is always and only in the now). Can the backside of the cup be known?
Perception of a decrease in temperature, a felt texture without bumps or edges, a thought of "smooth", a memory that an object I refer to as a "cup" was picked up and held in hands, there is a thought of "cup" and a visual image similar to the cup that was picked up. The cup comes into existence with eyes closed through thought/memory. 
You have to be more precise in your looking. Temperature is a sensation alright. But ‘texture’, ‘bumps’, ‘edges’ are not. A memory is just a thought, the word ‘cup’ is a label. All the perceived sensations blended together make the ‘cup’ come into existence.
Please answer the question again from your looking at the visual image and from your looking at the feeling of sensations. How does the cup come into existence?
Bella:
What is it that knows the cup?
Brian: The cup is not known. Sensations associated with a thought/memory of cup are known in awareness. 
How does that work? Known in awareness?
The cup as such doesn’t exist all by itself. The cup comes into being through interpretation of blended sensations and thoughts and labelling. In that way it is known there is a cup. Can you see this?
Can there be awareness on the one hand and a cup on the other? Or, can the cup be known apart from awareness (of the cup)? Can there be a cup without awareness?
When the cup is known, by what is it known? Is that what the self?


This is a quote from 2 posts ago.
Following your recent pointings, I cannot experience awareness without something: a sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, or mind object/thought.
If you cannot experience awareness apart from a sense perception, how can there be an (independent) awareness in which something is known? Look at both possibilities and tell me what you observe.

Take your time with each question.

Bella

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CircadianBJC
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby CircadianBJC » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:08 am

Hi Bella,

Thanks for your patience and explanation :)
Experience is what one is aware of. (Of course there is no-one there to be aware). So not being aware is impossible. There is no such thing or state as ‘not being aware’. Can you see this?
Not being caught in intellectualizing questions and responses has been difficult. Your comments are once again a useful reminder to answer only from experience. Yes, I can see that not being aware is not possible.
This answer is correct from intelligent thinking. But let’s look again from your direct or actual experience (which is always and only in the now). Can the backside of the cup be known?
No, the backside of the cup can not be known from my direct experience. Thank you again for the reminder to LOOK (not think) :)
You have to be more precise in your looking. Temperature is a sensation alright. But ‘texture’, ‘bumps’, ‘edges’ are not. A memory is just a thought, the word ‘cup’ is a label. All the perceived sensations blended together make the ‘cup’ come into existence. Please answer the question again from your looking at the visual image and from your looking at the feeling of sensations. How does the cup come into existence?
Visual image: There is shadow, light, color. A cup does not come into existence from vision. Cup arises as a thought about the combination of shadows, light, and color. Thoughts do not exist (batman again). A 'cup' does not exist.

Feeling of sensations with eyes closed: Change in temperature, muscle tension, a thought "metallic" after tapping the object with a fingernail. 'Cup' does not come into existence. With eyes open again, 'cup' again arises as a thought on combining shadow, light, color (e.g., silver and thought of "metal").
How does that work? Known in awareness?
This may be a missing of terms on my end. Awareness is synonymous with knowing for me. A sound arises in awareness = known. A sound is known = is has arisen in awareness. As always, let me know if this doesn't jive with your understanding.
The cup as such doesn’t exist all by itself. The cup comes into being through interpretation of blended sensations and thoughts and labelling. In that way it is known there is a cup. Can you see this?
Yes. The above clarifications were very helpful in getting to this point. Thanks for that Bella.
Can there be awareness on the one hand and a cup on the other? Or, can the cup be known apart from awareness (of the cup)?
The cup can not be known apart from awareness of the cup. Again, my understanding is knowing & awareness = one. Please correct this if I'm missing something.
Can there be a cup without awareness?
No. 'Cup' doesn't exist apart from a combination of sensations that must be known to be combined.
When the cup is known, by what is it known? Is that what the self?
My experience is that it is known. There is no additional 'what' or 'self' observed.
If you cannot experience awareness apart from a sense perception, how can there be an (independent) awareness in which something is known? Look at both possibilities and tell me what you observe.
There cannot be an independent awareness apart from a sense perception. This comes back to the theme of my understanding that awareness = knowing. But, this may be mistaken. Seems critical to hammer this one home for me Bella.

Thanks as always for all of your help!

Brian

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Bella
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby Bella » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:28 pm

Hi Brian,
There cannot be an independent awareness apart from a sense perception. This comes back to the theme of my understanding that awareness = knowing. But, this may be mistaken. Seems critical to hammer this one home for me Bella.
You’re quite right. This one is critical. You very perceptive :).

Awareness is not the same as knowing and they’re both just labels. In this inquiry you must be ready to question all your previous assumptions. The aim is that you see for yourself through looking in actual experience. Actual experience is always and only in the now. It consists of what can be perceived by the 5 physical senses and thought. That’s it.
Be sure that you LOOK, LOOK, LOOK. And keep only LOOKING. Very precise.

Now take a thought. Be aware of the presence of the thought. 
Can a thought be separated from the knowing or awareness of it?
Try your best to separate the two from each other. What happens?

Is there a dividing line between the thought and the knowing or awareness of it?
Can you find the line where the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?

Can you find a thought without the knowing of it?
Can you find knower or awareness without any object (like thought, sensation, sight, sound, taste, smell)?

Repeat this exercise many times during the day. Experiment not just only with thoughts, but also with mental images, sounds, taste, etc. Let me know how it went.


Take your time. There is no need for hurry. Just keep at it.

Bella

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CircadianBJC
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby CircadianBJC » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:29 am

Hi Bella,

As this is critical, I would like to take another day to be thorough with these exercises.

Thanks again for everything and I'll reply soon!

- Brian

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Bella
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby Bella » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:46 am

Thanks for letting me know.
Better to take more time when it’s needed

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CircadianBJC
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby CircadianBJC » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:35 pm

Now take a thought. Be aware of the presence of the thought.
Can a thought be separated from the knowing or awareness of it?
No separation is observed.
Try your best to separate the two from each other. What happens?
No separation happens. There is a variable gap filled by other perceptions until the next thought arises. The arising and the knowing or awareness of the thought are experienced as one. Simultaneous. To add the label 'knowing' or 'awareness' appears unnecessary.
Is there a dividing line between the thought and the knowing or awareness of it?
No dividing line can be observed.
Can you find the line where the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?
No. Thought and knowing are experienced as one. Simultaneous.
Can you find a thought without the knowing of it?
No. To find a thought is to know the thought.
Can you find knower or awareness without any object (like thought, sensation, sight, sound, taste, smell)?
Over the past 1.5 days of looking, looking, looking, no.
Repeat this exercise many times during the day. Experiment not just only with thoughts, but also with mental images, sounds, taste, etc. Let me know how it went.
For all, the presence of a perception is inseparable from its knowing.

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Bella
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby Bella » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:10 pm

Hi Brian,
The arising and the knowing or awareness of the thought are experienced as one. Simultaneous. To add the label 'knowing' or 'awareness' appears unnecessary. 
Good. Now dubbelcheck. Is there something called 'awareness' in which sensations arise?
For all, the presence of a perception is inseparable from its knowing.
Just to make sure that awareness-business is totally clear, here are some comments and questions. Since the seemingly existing stand-alone awareness is one of the basic pillars of the separate self.

As you discovered, aware-ing is going on. But there is nothing separate from the ‘aware-d’ object… The object and the aware-ing of it cannot be separated.

There are no two things there. There is no thought + awareness, somehow glued together.
There is just thoughtknowing. As a one unit. None of them exist without the other.
Actually, there is not even such thing as a thought. 
There is only thoughtknowing. Without the knowing of it there is no thought. There isn’t a standalone thought.
Just as there isn’t a stand-alone awareness. Without the thought (or any objects), there isn’t an aware-ing either.

So the knowing of a thought, which is a one unit, thoughtknowing, or thoughtawareing, creates the illusion of a stand-alone, independently existent awareness. Can you see this clearly?

Awareness is not something that is waiting in the background for an object (like thought or sensation) to appear and then latch onto them with its knowing or aware-ing ability, so the thought or the sensation become known by it. For this to be true, there must be not only a stand-alone awareness, but a stand-alone thought or a stand-alone sensation without the knowing element. But there cannot be a thought or sensation without the knowing of them.
We can fantasize about it, but actually thought or sensation without the knowing element simply doesn’t exist either. Can you see this clearly?

Is it also totally clear that there is no stand-alone, independent awareness waiting in the background for an object to appear and then latch onto it with its knowing or aware-ing ability?

Rather aware-ing is appearing simultaneously with the appearance of the thought or sensation. But this is even not true. Since no two separate ‘things’, an awareness and the thought appearing together, but just one ‘thing’ appearing ‘thoughtawareing’ or ‘sensationawareing’. Can you see this clearly?

And even saying that only ‘thoughtawareing’ is appearing is not completely true, since the word ‘appearing’ already implies something or somewhere in which or where it can appear. But this is the point where language fails use, due to its dualistic nature.

Again. Take your time. Be absolutely sure about your answers.

Bella

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CircadianBJC
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby CircadianBJC » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:21 am

Good. Now dubbelcheck. Is there something called 'awareness' in which sensations arise?
No. The sensation and its knowing/awareness are one.
So the knowing of a thought, which is a one unit, thoughtknowing, or thoughtawareing, creates the illusion of a stand-alone, independently existent awareness. Can you see this clearly?
Yes. Looking over and over, this is very clear :)
We can fantasize about it, but actually thought or sensation without the knowing element simply doesn’t exist either. Can you see this clearly?
Yes. This is also clear.
Is it also totally clear that there is no stand-alone, independent awareness waiting in the background for an object to appear and then latch onto it with its knowing or aware-ing ability?
Yes. This is totally clear :)
Rather aware-ing is appearing simultaneously with the appearance of the thought or sensation. But this is even not true. Since no two separate ‘things’, an awareness and the thought appearing together, but just one ‘thing’ appearing ‘thoughtawareing’ or ‘sensationawareing’. Can you see this clearly?
Yes. The sensation or thought and the awareness/knowing are not separable. The words/labels appear unnecessary as sensation and thought is experienced as one. (As you point out, language sort of breaks down here to describe the experience). This is clear and very apparent in looking over and over.

Thanks so much for this Bella. I'm excited to see where we go next. :)

- Brian

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Bella
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby Bella » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:29 am

Hi Brian,

Well done!

Please do the next excersise many times during the day.
When the I/self (i.e. as I-thought) asserts itself, examine:
1. where in experience is the self?
2. Where did the self come from?
3. How is this self known?
4. Can a self be found?
5. Where is the self located?
6. How does this self show itself?
7. Describe the sensations that seem to be the self.


Bella

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CircadianBJC
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby CircadianBJC » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:04 am

Hi Bella,

Once again, this is an important one and I would like to take an additional day for these exercises to be thorough.

Thanks as always for your help (and patience!)

-Brian

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Bella
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby Bella » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:45 am

Ok, thanks for letting me know.

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CircadianBJC
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby CircadianBJC » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:23 am

Hi Bella,
When the I/self (i.e. as I-thought) asserts itself, examine:
1. where in experience is the self?
I cannot locate a self in experience apart from thought (which doesn't 'exist'). When the I/self asserts itself, it tended to occur during moments of being lost in a thought/memory/daydream. I also found the I/self asserting itself during interpersonal interactions. For example, meeting the gaze of a stranger from across the room resulting in I/self-thoughts = self consciousness (literally).
2. Where did the self come from?
In all experiences of looking, a self comes from thought. Over the past day, these occurred during thoughts about planning for the future (e.g., "I need to do X task tonight and I need to do Y in the morning") and thoughts related to social interactions (e.g., "I hope that my eyes aren't red. They're itchy. I didn't sleep much last night.") When looking in experience apart from thought, no self could be found.
3. How is this self known?
I found that the self is known as an I/self-thought. Depending on the circumstance, this thought may then lead to other sensation-knowings such as increased heart rate, for example, in an anxiety-provoking social situation or maybe more I-thoughts about the past, present, or future until "waking up" to the experience of no self existing in experience apart from thought - which doesn't exist (e.g., batman).
4. Can a self be found?
I cannot find a self.
5. Where is the self located?
I cannot find a location of a self.
6. How does this self show itself?
As a self-thought. Once these thoughts are recognized as thought, no self and no location of a self are found.
7. Describe the sensations that seem to be the self.
Self/I-thoughts until they are recognized as thought.

These exercises were extremely useful Bella! Thanks as always for your help and guidance!

- Brian

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Bella
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Re: Does CircadianBJC Exist?

Postby Bella » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:45 am

Hi Brian,

You’re on the right track with the exercise. And let’s look a bit further/deeper.

Before I comment on your answers, please do the same exercise, each a few times:
1. When the I asserts as decisionmaker;
2. When the I asserts as the looker;
3. When the I asserts as recogniser.


Please answer each question separately.

There are a few more, but for now please concentrate on those. Let me know what you find.

Bella


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