Synelg

[Synelg]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My current understanding is that the self is a construct of the brain, created when we first learnt language. That it's an illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have been reading LU for over 7 weeks now, following several people and their guides. Mainly Vivien and her people, but recently several other guides. I loved Vivien's style, but now also appreciate other guides and their styles, particularly Skygazer (Nic). I chose people with the most pages and tried to do the exercises while I was reading their journey from the beginning. At first I couldn't do many of the exercises because my thoughts were SHOUTING at me that “OF COURSE THERE'S AN 'I' !!!! WHY CAN'T THIS BODY AND THESE SENSATIONS BE AN 'I' !!!. But I kept trying and did the exercises I could do, and now I find most of the exercises easy and it's obvious to me now that there's no 'I'. And now when I ask the questions, there are no thoughts at all saying that there's an 'I'. Each time I ask, attention goes directly to a sensation in the body, but no thoughts say that's an 'I', there's just the sensation.

In the past couple of weeks I've had two 'experiences'. One was where I reached up to scratch my forehead and for just a second, all there was was the sensation – really clear, really clean, and NOTHING ELSE. It lasted only a second, no more than two, but it was just the most amazing experience. I have never wanted a 'peak' experience – they always sounded scary to me, but after this experience, I can see why people chase them. Wow, but it took me days to stop wanting to get that back again.

Then two days ago, I was driving along and asked "Is there an 'I' driving this car?". Nothing, so I asked "Is Synelg driving this car?". And a thought said "Yes". But it was 'Yes' to the BODY of Synelg driving this car, not a self. It was like I was in the third person, like watching this BODY drive the car, automatically steering it, seeing the arms in front me, seeing the scenery. It was the coolest thing and I couldn't stop grinning and laughing. And for the first time, I thought I could say that there was no 'I' and there never was an 'I'. But now I wonder if it was all in my imagination.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I've worked really hard on the exercises, many many hours a day and although it's obvious to me that there's no 'I' here, I feel no different at all. No shift or subtle 'felt' knowing. I didn't expect a big experience, but I thought I'd have some sort of knowing. I've lost confidence and thoughts are saying maybe I just can't make it, but there's a hope that a guide will help.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
About 3 years ago, I did about 200 hours of Mahasi Sayadaw 'noting', then about 200 hours of Culadasa meditation before I stopped meditating for a couple of years. About six months ago, I came across Roger Castillo and his teachings really resonated with me. I spent hundreds of hours listening to his videos and his simple process started working and has continued to work on dealing with emotions and suffering. I haven't felt 'guilt' for over 3 months now, anxiety, feelings of depression, blame and other attitudes have taken a big hit and the process just keeps working. Although I haven't found Roger's teachings conflict with LU at all, I stopped listening to him when I came to LU because that's what was recommended here. The process however, just continues to work automatically. I found LU actually helped the process a lot because for instance, when I let emotions (sensations) come up and feel/welcome them, because of LU, it became obvious that the sensations had nothing to do with the darn labels lololol. I'm very very grateful for LU, for Vivien and all the other guides who do this work.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi Synelg,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. I’m happy to offer to point for you.

This will be YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post at least once a day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

I've worked really hard on the exercises, many many hours a day and although it's obvious to me that there's no 'I' here, I feel no different at all. No shift or subtle 'felt' knowing. I didn't expect a big experience, but I thought I'd have some sort of knowing. I've lost confidence and thoughts are saying maybe I just can't make it, but there's a hope that a guide will help.

How do you imagine this shift? What should happen?
How would your life change if you had that shift?
What is incomplete right now?

Vivien

[Synelg]

Thankyou thankyou thankyou Vivien for agreeing to be my guide. I am soooo grateful :)

Can we agree on these?

Absolutely

How do you imagine this shift? What should happen?

When I first looked at LU and read the disclaimers, I understood completely that there was no 'big shift' or fireworks. So I had no expectations around this at all. In fact, I didn't WANT a big experience because it all sounded a bit scary lol. And at first there was great fear around seeing through the illusion, but I saw you reassure people so many times saying that the only thing that is lost is the belief. So now there is zero fear. However, reading people's experiences when they see through the illusion, it seems clear that they have no doubt. So although it seems obvious to me that there's no 'I', I can't say that I feel any 'subtle shift'. And I still have some trouble with some of the questions. So I'm presuming if I see through the illusion, that I will have no doubt that I've seen through it.

How would your life change if you had that shift?

I can't see that it would change at all. I'm ok with my life at the moment - I'm working through emotional 'stuff' - which can be very very intense, but which seems to be just happening. It would be nice if the shift made that process a little easier, but I'm ok with the way it's happening right now.

What is incomplete right now?

I've looked at this question a lot, seeing what other people say and wondering what I would say. Because I don't feel anything is missing. The question puzzles me.

Perhaps right now, there's been a growing desire in the last few weeks to just have this part 'done', because it's an obsession now - I'm on this site most of the day and 'looking'. I feel like I just want to get it 'done' and start living - I want to start contributing to life again instead of this concentrating on myself 24 hours a day.

[Vivien]

Hi Synelg,

Thankyou thankyou thankyou Vivien for agreeing to be my guide. I am soooo grateful :)

You are very welcome :)

So now there is zero fear.

I’m glad to hear that. If any time fear or resistance come up, please let me know, and we can look at it together.

So I'm presuming if I see through the illusion, that I will have no doubt that I've seen through it.

Yes.

At first I couldn't do many of the exercises because my thoughts were SHOUTING at me that “OF COURSE THERE'S AN 'I' !!!! WHY CAN'T THIS BODY AND THESE SENSATIONS BE AN 'I' !!!. But I kept trying and did the exercises I could do, and now I find most of the exercises easy and it's obvious to me now that there's no 'I'. And now when I ask the questions, there are no thoughts at all saying that there's an 'I'. Each time I ask, attention goes directly to a sensation in the body, but no thoughts say that's an 'I', there's just the sensation.

The question is whether you took on the belief that there is no self anywhere (replacing the old belief that there is), or you REALLY can SEE in EXPERIENCE at a visceral level that the body is empty of a self?

Because it seems to me from what you wrote above that you are relying on thoughts. If thoughts say that there is a me/I then the conclusion is that there is, and if thought say there isn’t, then the conclusion is that there isn’t. So what has changed is the content of thoughts. They no more telling the story of sensation being the ‘I’. Is this so?


If you ignore what thoughts say about the existence or non-existence of a self, do you FEEL at the core that there is a self/I anywhere?

I feel like I just want to get it 'done' and start living - I want to start contributing to life again instead of this concentrating on myself 24 hours a day.

“Concentrating on myself” – Where is this self exactly that the concentration is on? Please point to it with your finger (literally). Where do you point at?

Vivien

[Synelg]

The question is whether you took on the belief that there is no self anywhere (replacing the old belief that there is), or you REALLY can SEE in EXPERIENCE at a visceral level that the body is empty of a self

I cannot find an 'I' anywhere, but saying that the body is empty of a self is momentarily uncomfortable. A sensation in the chest and a label of a little anxiety. I stay with the sensation and ask what the anxiety is. The body jerks and twitches – I have a lot of jerks and twitches whenever I'm looking. I stay with the sensation and it recedes. I ask where is the 'I'. Silence from thoughts. I can't find an 'I'. There is no 'I'. The body is empty of a self.

Because it seems to me from what you wrote above that you are relying on thoughts. If thoughts say that there is a me/I then the conclusion is that there is, and if thought say there isn’t, then the conclusion is that there isn’t. So what has changed is the content of thoughts. They no more telling the story of sensation being the ‘I’. Is this so?

Yes, the contents of thought have definitely changed – they no longer say that sensations are 'I'. But when they did say they WERE an 'I', I didn't conclude that there was an 'I', I just kept looking at the sensation and saying that it was just a sensation, not an 'I'.

Now, when I ask where the 'I' is, or where the self is or is there someone looking or hearing etc, attention goes immediately to a sensation, usually in the chest. But no thoughts, just silence. Then I ask if the sensation is supposed to be an 'I'. There's just silence. I can't find an 'I'.

Am I relying on thoughts? Oh - perhaps I am! Oh - I will keep looking at this.

If you ignore what thoughts say about the existence or non-existence of a self, do you FEEL at the core that there is a self/I anywhere?

This is the first time I've thought this, but Yes, I FEEL like 'I', but I can't find it, can't point to anywhere it is.

“Concentrating on myself” – Where is this self exactly that the concentration is on? Please point to it with your finger (literally). Where do you point at?

There's nowhere to point to. There's a sensation in the chest, but it's just a sensation.

[Vivien]

Hi Synelg,

This is the first time I've thought this, but Yes, I FEEL like 'I', but I can't find it, can't point to anywhere it is.

Please keep the focus on this FEELING of ‘I’. Feel it. Just stay with it, and investigate:

Where is this feeling felt exactly? In the chest? In the head? Behind the eyes? In throat? Where exactly?

And what kind of feeling is this?
Please describe me this ‘feeling of I’ as precisely as you can, without using analogies, theories or speculations.

Vivien

[Synelg]

Where is this feeling felt exactly? In the chest? In the head? Behind the eyes? In throat? Where exactly?

The feelings change - in the chest, in the throat, at the back of the head, occasionally in the forehead. All of these are where attention goes when I ask where 'I' is.

And what kind of feeling is this?
Please describe me this ‘feeling of I’ as precisely as you can, without using analogies, theories or speculations.

The feeling in the chest feel like indigestion – but wait! That's an analogy!
The feeling at the back of the head feels like a slight headache – but wait! That's an analogy!
The feeling at the back of the throat feels like – can't find it at the moment

Oh god – 'I'm' a headache! 'I'm' indigestion! This is ridiculous. I'm stumped. I ask “Who is stumped?” - Attention just goes to a sensation in the chest – an indigestion-like sensation. Each time I question, attention just goes to a sensation that feels like one of the above. Frustration – Who is frustrated? - indigestion-like feeling in chest. Aaaargh.......

[Vivien]

Hi Synelg,

You did a great looking!

Now let’s come back to one of your previous comment:

V: “Concentrating on myself” – Where is this self exactly that the concentration is on? Please point to it with your finger (literally). Where do you point at?

S: There's nowhere to point to. There's a sensation in the chest, but it's just a sensation.

So there is nowhere to point to and yet you say that:

“I feel like I just want to get it 'done' and start living - I want to start contributing to life again instead of this concentrating on myself 24 hours a day.’

So what is the concentration ON EXACTLY when you are concentrating on yourself 24/7?

- I want to start contributing to life again

WHAT is this ‘I’ that wants to start to contributing to life again?
WHERE is this ‘I’ that is currently not contributing to life?

“I feel like I just want to get it 'done' and start living -

WHAT is it that is NOT living right now, since it’s concentrating on itself?

You have to show me this ‘something’ that is not living right now :)

Vivien

[Synelg]

So what is the concentration ON EXACTLY when you are concentrating on yourself 24/7?

I'm concentrating on a feeling of indigestion in the #*% chest lol. I'm soooo sorry – it's so frustratingly ridiculous. The answer I WANT to give is that there is no-one to concentrate. Keep looking.....there's a mental picture of this body sitting here day after day, trying to get this. And attention on a sensation at the back of the throat. And another mental picture of this body sitting here looking, looking.

WHAT is this ‘I’ that wants to start to contributing to life again?

I can't find what this 'I' is that wants to start contributing to life again. This 'I' can't exist (I originally had 'This 'I' DOESN'T exist”, but I found CAN'T more accurate when I read it over). It can't be found. It's not there. It's obvious. Why can't I say it DOESN'T exist?

WHERE is this ‘I’ that is currently not contributing to life?

I can't find this 'I' that is currently not contributing to life. It's not in the body. It's not in the air. It's not in the throat. It's not in the chest. It's not in the head. It's certainly not in the feet.

WHAT is it that is NOT living right now, since it’s concentrating on itself?

There's nothing that can be found that is NOT living right now. This body is living. There's just this body, sitting here day after day, looking.... desperately. And a headache-like sensation.

So much frustration

Vivien, thank you so much for answering so quickly. Very grateful. You have so many others you are helping xxx

[Synelg]

IT DOESN'T EXIST!
Sorry Vivien - not yelling at you. IT DOESN'T EXIST.
I just let the neighbours dogs out (they're away) and yelled it all the way up their drive. I DON'T EXIST. It's obvious. So obvious. But.... no shift. Frustration. Who's frustrated? No-one. It's just frustration. Just a sensation and a label.

[Vivien]

Hi Synelg,

Vivien, thank you so much for answering so quickly. Very grateful. You have so many others you are helping xxx

You are very welcome :) Maybe we are in a same or close time zones? Or it’s night for you but you skipped sleeping for looking? :)

I just let the neighbours dogs out (they're away) and yelled it all the way up their drive. I DON'T EXIST. It's obvious. So obvious

So you say that it’s obvious that there is no self.
And how does it FEEL to see that it’s obvious?

But.... no shift. Frustration.

What kind of shift do you expect exactly?
What should change with the shift?

Previously you wrote:

So I'm presuming if I see through the illusion, that I will have no doubt that I've seen through it.

So, do you doubts? Is there a self/me maybe still hiding somewhere?

Frustration. Who's frustrated? No-one. It's just frustration. Just a sensation and a label.

Look at this frustration. FEEL it.

What experiences this frustration?

Vivien

[Synelg]

I'm in New Zealand Vivien. It's 8pm at night, just going dark. It's Spring and I'm in a rural area, so everything is looking more beautiful every day. Almost as good as a peak experience lolol.

And how does it FEEL to see that it’s obvious?

Absolutely no different to before lol. sigh.....

What kind of shift do you expect exactly?

Just to be able to say what others say, that they feel this subtle felt shift. I have no idea what that might feel like. Not expecting anything really, just that they know beyond a doubt. Yet I DO know beyond a doubt. It's obvious. But when you ask the final questions, I get stuck on one or two – the one where you ask something like 'do you know that there's no self and never has been?' I say yes to the first statement and get puzzled as to why I can't say yes to the 'never has been' statement.

What should change with the shift?

I should be able to answer those questions with confidence and certainty

So, do you doubts? Is there a self/me maybe still hiding somewhere?

Can't see where. I've looked and looked. There's no self anywhere. There IS no self. It's stupid to even think there's a self.

What experiences this frustration?

I did do that. Within a minute or so after I wrote that, there was a remembering to let frustration be felt. Felt it. Can't remember what the sensation was now, but felt the sensation and the separate label. Asked who was feeling it. Silence. The sensation disappeared quickly.

When the silence happens, there is often a remembering to be in the present moment Vivien. So it happens like this. I ask the question, there's silence, then there's an awareness of the fridge humming, then the birds singing, then the trees in the distance looking beautiful outside. And a feeling of excitement, life. Not every time, but very often now.

[Vivien]

Hi Synelg,

I'm in New Zealand Vivien.

I am in Australia.

I ask the question, there's silence, then there's an awareness of the fridge humming, then the birds singing, then the trees in the distance looking beautiful outside. And a feeling of excitement, life. Not every time, but very often now.

OK, the trick maybe lies here.

When you ask the questions, and there is silence, don’t stop there, rather ACTIVELY SEARCH through the body, search for a SENSATION that is seeming to be the ‘me’.

The self is masquerading as a sensation. So you have to find the sensation that is seemingly the ‘me’ who is frustrated at the moment.

Let’s try this out. Please put your attention to the sensations of the hands. Feel the sensations.

1. Then ask: What is feeling this sensation (of the hand)?
2. Search through the body, especially the chest and the head for a FEELER. Especially pay attention to sensations that might be labelled as a feeler.
3. If you found a sensation that is seemingly the one that is feeling the hands, then ask:
Is this sensation the feeler? Or Is this sensation feeling the hands?
4. If it’s clear that this is just a plain sensation, and not a feeler, then start it again, from #2.

Go in circles, again and again for several minutes.

If #3 doesn’t happen, meaning you don’t find a particular sensation that is seemingly the feeler of hands, then search more. After some time, you can go back asking the original question (#2).

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[Synelg]

I went through the exercise 8 times, spending time on each area of sensation. There were all the normal sensations that are always there - the one at the back of my head between the ears, the one at the back of my nose, the one at the back of my throat, the one in my chest and the one in my solar plexus. I also looked at the sensation behind the eyes although though that's not one that every stands out much for me.

I asked each sensation if it were the feeler, if it was the sensation feeling the hand sensations. No sensation stood out as a feeler, they all were normal sensations which went away if I shifted or cleared my throat or swallowed.

[Vivien]

Hi Synelg,

OK. Please continue looking. You can include all parts of experience for looking for the feeler. Look everywhere. Find the feeler.

What is feeling the body?

Vivien