Getting closer ...

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Chris1001
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Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:18 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the thoughts and body sensations we consider to be our 'selves' are not actually selves at all - moreover they are just thoughts and sensations that have over time become habituated into patterns giving the impression of a solid, permanent entity, that thinks and does. A 'doer'.
The guides help us to 'see' this in a real sense.

What are you looking for at LU?
Help with feeling safe around all this. To 'see' clearly but also to feel that I will not be losing anything sacred. That I will still be able to function in a normal way and get the most from life. One of my greatest hopes would be that the contraction I feel in my solar plexus could one day begin to loosen a little, and not be such a burden (I've noticed its at its tightest when I'm very identified and there are lots of 'me' thoughts, or when there is existential fear present).
I would hope that - in time - life could be lived in a way that has more openness without the fear that seems to accompany it. With more natural flow. To be able to experience reality as it is meant to be experienced.
I would love to have a guide to help me with the passing thru' the 'gateless gate' in a way that feels healthy, in a way that feels right - without the 'undercurrent of nihilism' as I think Ilona described it (such as is found in Jed McKenna's work).
I could also really use some help with regard to the chop wood/carry water side of things. I get a little confused around meaning and purpose - in terms of how that looks after passing thru' the gateless gate.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would hope to be helped to 'see' clearly. To have a guide who would be willing to go around (no doubt) the same questions again and again, with the patience to see things through.
I would also really hope to have a guide who can remain in a place of non-judgement, and keep with the honesty approach as things arise in me. My resistances are bound to be stubborn, from what I know of my personality. So a guide who would believe in my genuine desire to enquire, and not give up on me, would be just great.
If I am to really bring some honesty here....I would say that there is a tendency towards fear of abandonment in my personality. The fear that a guide might just give up on me if I don't give the answers they want me to give. If I'm not a grade-A student straight off the bat.
In one sense the stubbornness is a test ("will they stick with me when all my resistances show up?"), and when thoughts pop up such as "How do I know I'm not being brainwashed into all this?". I'd like a guide who understands that I'm not necessarily attached to all these sub-personalities - I'm merely sharing what is arising.
If I can feel reassured, then I would imagine I might relax into the process, and a guided conversation would help to transition the conceptual understanding I already have, into more 'seeing' and experiential understanding.
I would expect it to be a bit messy though - and I welcome that. I don't expect it to be just a simple clicking of the fingers and 'done'.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Around eighteen years or so of meditation practice - on and off. A few retreats and satsangs. The usual books - Eckhart Tolle, Jed McKenna, Daniel Ingram etc. Hundreds of youtube videos watched - Adyashanti, Shinzen Young, Rupert Spira, Jeff Foster, Matt Kahn, Bentinho Massaro etc and lots of interviews on the Buddha at the Gas Pump channel.
A number of years ago I did regular sessions each month with a non-duality coach. I'd had a mental breakdown/anxiety disorder with accompanying long term depression, that I had come to view as a kundalini/dark night/spiritual crisis, and I decided to turn to him for help - as oppose to a conventional therapist. On some level I realised that at the core of all the various crises I'd had in my life was the me/self. It was the one constant throughout all of them. The outside world wasn't going to fix my crisis - and I wasn't willing to just power thru' and 'get better'. I wanted to understand fundamentally what had happened to me - even if it meant staying in depression a while longer. My coach helped me to seriously start working with thought patterns and processes and the habit of identification itself. I had a lot of resistance and constantly looked for a way in which I could master the mind whilst still retaining my 'self'. But I did have progress and my mental health improved gradually.
I kept going with the thought process work and started doing more inquiry (also in shared spaces with others - through Authentic Relating/Circling), and over the last year or so I have released more resistance to the ultimate question of the 'self'.
I now feel more ready, and I would say there is less seeking, and increased 'letting go'.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:55 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post at least once a day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?


Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for?
What do you want to happen?
What is incomplete right now?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 pm

Hi Vivien

Thanks for taking up my thread. Its much appreciated :)
I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post at least once a day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?
Yes, we can agree on this.
Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
I think right now I would say that I am looking for truth - in the hope that knowing truth will lead to more 'flow' in life.
What are you hoping for?
A productive exchange/dialogue, which helps me to see reality more clearly. I am hoping that Life can continue with all the 'good bits' from before, but with less bad bits - less inner critic, less self judgement, less fear.
What do you want to happen?
That I discover more freedom, through having seen things in a crystal clear way.
What is incomplete right now?
I guess what is incomplete is that there's a sense that things could be better in this moment. That I could have more good stuff happening in this moment than I have. More fun. More interesting things happening. More connection with interesting people. More, more, more...

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:05 am

Hi Chris,
Thanks for taking up my thread. Its much appreciated :)
You are welcome :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.


I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?
If I am to really bring some honesty here....I would say that there is a tendency towards fear of abandonment in my personality. The fear that a guide might just give up on me if I don't give the answers they want me to give. If I'm not a grade-A student straight off the bat.
Thank you for your honestly. The risk is not whether I will abandon you, the risk is that you might abandon this inquiry when it gets hard, or if doesn’t bring what you expect it to bring, or if you don’t like what I say :)

Are you prepared to question and let go off your expectations?

What if seeing through the self won’t bring what you expect? Still you would want it?


Because I can assure you it won’t be how you imagine it to be. It’s completely different how it can be imagined. It’s much more sobering. And it cannot be known in advance how it actually will be like. What is sure, is not how you imagine it to be.
I think right now I would say that I am looking for truth - in the hope that knowing truth will lead to more 'flow' in life.
What do you mean by more flow in life? What would more ‘flow in life’ would be like?
I guess what is incomplete is that there's a sense that things could be better in this moment. That I could have more good stuff happening in this moment than I have. More fun. More interesting things happening. More connection with interesting people. More, more, more...
So you want more and better experiences?
What if seeing through the illusion of the self has nothing to do with having more or better experiences?
Would you still want to see through the illusion if it won’t bring more or better experiences?


Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
One of my greatest hopes would be that the contraction I feel in my solar plexus could one day begin to loosen a little, and not be such a burden (I've noticed its at its tightest when I'm very identified and there are lots of 'me' thoughts, or when there is existential fear present).
I hear you. It’s natural to want to feel better. But seeing through the self is not about not having certain feelings, sensations or emotions. Rather it’s about seeing that these sensations/feelings/emotions don’t belong to a ME. That they are just free-floating without affecting anything or anyone - the freedom lies in this.
I am hoping that Life can continue with all the 'good bits' from before, but with less bad bits - less inner critic, less self judgement, less fear.
What you are talking here is result of conditionings and psychological, emotional issues. These things won’t go away in a swoop, since the personality is almost totally stay intact with seeing through the self.

These thigs you listed might lessen, or might not at all. Physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise However, However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

Would you still want to see through the illusion if it won’t necessarily solve your emotional problems and you have to deal with them later?

To 'see' clearly but also to feel that I will not be losing anything sacred. That I will still be able to function in a normal way and get the most from life.
What do you imagine, what sacred things could be lost?

What makes you think that you won’t be able to function normally?
I would also really hope to have a guide who can remain in a place of non-judgement, and keep with the honesty approach as things arise in me.
I will be honest with you all along. That’s why my responses above. Looking at expectations are very important. And the sobering part that comes with it too.
The usual books - Eckhart Tolle, Jed McKenna, Daniel Ingram etc. Hundreds of youtube videos watched - Adyashanti, Shinzen Young, Rupert Spira, Jeff Foster, Matt Kahn, Bentinho Massaro etc and lots of interviews on the Buddha at the Gas Pump channel.
For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?


Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:43 am

Hi Vivien,

Brace yourself...this is a long one :)
For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?
We can agree that I'll stop reading/listening to all these teachers I've mentioned. In fact, anything other than the Liberation Unleashed stuff. You (Liberation Unleashed) instructed me to read Gateless Gatecrashers, so I'm reading it. And you also instructed me to look into the Enlightening Quotes stuff, so I've been doing that too. I'll just stick to those and refer to those.

Its easy to ask me to put aside 'all learned knowledge', but that's easier said than done...
But I will endeavour to look at Direct Experience as best I can.
What do you imagine, what sacred things could be lost?

God.
Beauty.
Love.
Spirit.

Whatever the opposite of nihilism is - that's what I would fear losing.
Meaning.
I would fear losing the sense of meaning in Life...

Already this is getting a bit messy - it has triggered the shit out of me (there you go - plenty of honesty).
So let's see if we can tidy this up a bit:
In Gateless Gatecrashers, Christie's chapter, it says the following:

Christie: Illusion must then be created as everything else is created—
by the One Source. The nature of this “life”. You’re right; it doesn’t
make sense that the ego, which is not real, could create anything. Is
this true?
By “I am the source” I mean that I am not “me”, in this body, this individual, but rather a part of the One Source. Call it God or Life or It.
I read somewhere that sunlight flowing through a red glass appears red,
through green glass, green. It appears through this being as “me”, but I
am still a part of that ‘sun’. If there was no “me”, nothing would change.
I see it as the realisation of the ‘I AM’.
Am I on the right track?
Ilona: Perfectly.
God = life = reality = 1
Self = me = I = zero.

This reality - including a God as described above....that'll do me. That's all I need.
My old non-duality coach used to try and fuck with that, and encouraged me towards the Jed McKenna nihilism stuff, and I hated it. He would say things like: "there's nothing but a boring, meaningless infinite universe stretching on forever, with no point to any of it". He would say that Love itself was an obstacle to waking up.
That stuff...I hated it. It was pushing me back into depression again, so eventually I walked away. I carried on with the thought process work he'd taught me and things improved again.

I wanted to have a guide who would help me feel safe with all this, and you took up my thread. So you must have understood my concerns. I got burned the last time I worked with someone, and I hope this time will be different.
I hope you take the Ilona approach rather than the Jed McKenna approach.
What do you mean by more flow in life? What would more ‘flow in life’ would be like?
In your LU - Enlightening Quotes video Introduction 01, the narrator says:
Without identification emotions pass more quickly, since they're free. Meeting everything that comes up with openness and with no resistance makes the whole experience of life a joyful ride, rather than the hard work it is trying to control What Is.

....seems like 'flow' to me :)
Are you prepared to question and let go off your expectations?
Right now I'm only really expecting the Flow, as described above.
I'm actually already experiencing a lot more of this since I first came across LU a month ago. I imagine the trajectory would keep going in roughly the same direction. Along with the natural ups and downs of life of course.
This is not the same as expecting fireworks. I'm not expecting huge openings that instantly make everything perfect for evermore. I realise that that's a bullshit expectation of awakening. At least for me anyway.
What if seeing through the self won’t bring what you expect? Still you would want it?
But its already bringing me what I was expecting - in line with the previous description of Flow. Nothing more, nothing less. So the question isn't really impacting me very much.
I suppose its always possible the craving could creep back in again...craving the present moment to be something other than what it is, but that doesn't seem to be happening so far.
So you want more and better experiences?
What if seeing through the illusion of the self has nothing to do with having more or better experiences?
Would you still want to see through the illusion if it won’t bring more or better experiences?
That part...about wanting more, more, more. I see that. I do feel that it dissolves gradually, the more its seen. Over months and years, rather than straightaway.

I watched Lisa Kahale's video (another LU resource) and she talked about the thoughts (in my case the 'wanting more' thoughts) being like trains passing thru' a station. She said something like "I'm on the platform and I don't have to get on those trains".

So they pass thru'. And gradually....the present moment just as it is gets accepted more and more.
I hear you. It’s natural to want to feel better. But seeing through the self is not about not having certain feelings, sensations or emotions. Rather it’s about seeing that these sensations/feelings/emotions don’t belong to a ME. That they are just free-floating without affecting anything or anyone - the freedom lies in this.
Yep. I'm cool with this. No resistance here.
Other than to say that so far...it does seem to result in more Flow. And Flow seems to result in nicer feeling sensations.
Or rather...less contracted sensations.
What makes you think that you won’t be able to function normally?
I have been functioning pretty normally recently. In the last month since I first discovered LU, and even just since I first posted on the Forum, there has been increased Flow, less mind chatter and less and less resistance to No-Self.

But I lead quite a lazy existence at the moment, very inactive, and this irks me a bit.

I'm being gentle with myself. With less mind chatter, I keep letting myself off the hook and just letting go of the need to control.

(The fact is I've spent most of this year watching my beloved mother dying from cancer...and i put my life on hold to be at her side and support her during the whole time. She passed away a couple of months ago, and now the work i used to do, together with her - a property business - its all in the hands of the solicitors and the tax office. I can't do any work on the houses i used to work on. Not until its gone through the various channels and they've taken their tax.)

So realistically, what more could I do, but wait...and then become active and working again once its all sorted.
There's nothing I can do except take time-out and relax.
The fear is subtle and not overt, but i guess its the conditioning that makes me feel that my 'self' should be kicking me up the ass and getting busy again, somehow. Start a new business or something.

There's more to this functioning question and I can't find the words to go into it more just now.
Something about chop wood/carry water....something about motivation.
Something about meaning and purpose (but there's resistance to going into this with you if I'm honest - a fear that you might be like my old coach and try and throw meaning and purpose in the dustbin).
What you are talking here is result of conditionings and psychological, emotional issues. These things won’t go away in a swoop, since the personality is almost totally stay intact with seeing through the self.

These thigs you listed might lessen, or might not at all. Physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise However, However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
Yes, agreed.

On the whole I didn't really have that much resistance coming up to your questions, other than the one about what sacred things could be lost. But I've gone into that in some detail here so hopefully you're clearer now.

Thanks for listening!

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:01 am

Hi Chris,
In fact, anything other than the Liberation Unleashed stuff. You (Liberation Unleashed) instructed me to read Gateless Gatecrashers, so I'm reading it. And you also instructed me to look into the Enlightening Quotes stuff, so I've been doing that too. I'll just stick to those and refer to those.
Yes, this is suggested while waiting for a guide. But now, I would like to ask you to stop reading even these. The Enlightening Quotes are good, but they are taken out of context, which are meant for a certain client in a certain stage of the process. I will give you personalized questions for you, and I would like to spend your time investigate those instead, which are meant for specifically for you. Also, if you read others thread or the book, it’s inevitable that you start to compare yourself and your progress with others, and that won’t be neither pleasant nor helpful, actually, it could hindrance your own progress.

Can we agree on this?
My old non-duality coach used to try and fuck with that, and encouraged me towards the Jed McKenna nihilism stuff, and I hated it. He would say things like: "there's nothing but a boring, meaningless infinite universe stretching on forever, with no point to any of it". He would say that Love itself was an obstacle to waking up.
That stuff...I hated it. It was pushing me back into depression again, so eventually I walked away. I carried on with the thought process work he'd taught me and things improved again.
It's very important to mention that I’m not a coach, and I won’t teach you anything. I won’t give you anything to believe in. Rather, I am going to give you questions to investigate the beliefs you already have. This is a big difference.
God.
Beauty.
Love.
Spirit.
Whatever the opposite of nihilism is - that's what I would fear losing.
Meaning.
I would fear losing the sense of meaning in Life...
Nihilism is based on a belief. We are not going to go to the direction of beliefs. You won’t gain new beliefs here, rather you will see through the beliefs you already hold.

The meaning of life is a philosophical question, just as god or spirit. With won’t philosophize here. We won’t speculate. We won’t debate views and belief.

We are just going to look at experience directly to see if your beliefs about yourself are in line with experience.

We won’t make conclusions about god, spirit, or the meaning of life. What conclusions you draw about these topics is up to you.

We will only investigate the illusion of the self and related topic by comparing your beliefs with experience. That’s all.
We won’t even have a normal, everyday conversation :)

Rather, I will bombard you (just kidding or maybe not :) with lots of questions, which are pointers for you where to LOOK.

(And by the way, you definitely won’t lose beauty and love, so don’t worry.)

This investigation will be very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

I will at times ask things repeatedly, or in very simple language. If that happens, trust the process as it's meant to stop the intellectualizing an allow exploration of the experiential.

Let’s start it.

What is your concept regarding the self?
In short, what do you believe yourself to be?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:22 am

Hi Vivien,
Yes, this is suggested while waiting for a guide. But now, I would like to ask you to stop reading even these. The Enlightening Quotes are good, but they are taken out of context, which are meant for a certain client in a certain stage of the process. I will give you personalized questions for you, and I would like to spend your time investigate those instead, which are meant for specifically for you. Also, if you read others thread or the book, it’s inevitable that you start to compare yourself and your progress with others, and that won’t be neither pleasant nor helpful, actually, it could hindrance your own progress.

Can we agree on this?
Well...I'll do my best to try to avoid doing this.
(And by the way, you definitely won’t lose beauty and love, so don’t worry.)
Yes, this kind of reassurance helps me. Thank you very much.
What is your concept regarding the self?
In short, what do you believe yourself to be?
Seeing what arises now....there is some confusion around the question. These thoughts pop up:
Is this a trick question?
She says to avoid conceptualising/beliefs...but this question asks me to form a concept about the self?!"

In direct experience here and now....there is breathing (so something's alive)....some contraction around the chest and face, like nervous energy. Some fear-type energy (which is also contraction type of sensation - but a slightly different flavour).
More thoughts arise:
In this moment this is what I am.
But there is also the story of me/my life (but she doesn't want to hear about that).

That seems to be 'me', right now, using the approach of just seeing, without conceptualising.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:38 am

Hi Chris,
Is this a trick question?
She says to avoid conceptualising/beliefs...but this question asks me to form a concept about the self?!"
No, it’s not a trick questions. At first I wanted to see what you believe yourself to be and then we could investigate those beliefs.
In direct experience here and now....there is breathing (so something's alive)....some contraction around the chest and face, like nervous energy. Some fear-type energy (which is also contraction type of sensation - but a slightly different flavour).
Is this contracted sensation = you?

How does this sensation relate to the self?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:39 am

Hi Vivien,
Is this contracted sensation = you?
Well, I guess no, not really.
I mean, I used to take it for granted that there was a 'me'. Until I started investigating it a little bit deeper.
Then, I saw that there was sense of self in thoughts, and sense of self in feelings/sensations (like the contracted feeling for example). Different senses of self, not just the one sense of self. And I started to question the whole notion of self.
How does this sensation relate to the self?
Well...does it relate to the self? This is the question.
It can be seen that this 'self' could just be a conditioned belief. Consisting of habituated thought patterns and processes, combined with the various body sensations....giving the 'impression' of a self.
But, is an impression proof...? Is it really solid evidence? These questions arise.

This is where I get really interested in Direct Experience. I wonder if you might go thru' some of the exercises with me. Like the one with the apple, for instance?

Do you think it would be a good idea to take me through some of those exercises Vivien?

Thanks for helping me with this ongoing investigation :)

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:55 am

Hi Chris,
This is where I get really interested in Direct Experience. I wonder if you might go thru' some of the exercises with me. Like the one with the apple, for instance?
Do you think it would be a good idea to take me through some of those exercises Vivien?
It seems you want to control the process :)
It can be seen that this 'self' could just be a conditioned belief. Consisting of habituated thought patterns and processes, combined with the various body sensations....giving the 'impression' of a self.
But, is an impression proof...? Is it really solid evidence? These questions arise.
What is an impression in experience?
Color? Sound? Sensation? Taste? Smell? Thought? Imagination? Or else?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:05 pm

Hi Vivien,
Do you think it would be a good idea to take me through some of those exercises Vivien?
It seems you want to control the process :)
Was just asking...
You're the boss :)
What is an impression in experience?
Color? Sound? Sensation? Taste? Smell? Thought? Imagination? Or else?
The first thought that pops us is:
The impression of the 'self' seems primarily to be a combination of thought and body sensation.

But then the thought comes:
Of course all these other senses - taste, smell, visual/colour, sound - also create the impression of 'self' too, don't they!!

The next thought that arises is:
But...why the hell do any of these senses require a 'self' to be able to function?! Its like, it gets bolted on to the end, like a free bonus add-on.
(Laughter arising now....)

(Vivien, its really nice that I'm not finding any of this threatening....it actually feels humorous, lighthearted - fun even. And I didn't expect that. I've read about this stuff so many times over the years, and yet I don't think I've ever experienced a 'seeing' as purely as I did just then. Wow.)

Thank you!

Lets keep going :)

Chris

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Vivien
Posts: 4767
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:14 am

Hi Chris,
its really nice that I'm not finding any of this threatening....it actually feels humorous, lighthearted - fun even. And I didn't expect that.
I’m glad that you don’t find this looking threatening. If any fears come up during our investigation, please let me know, so we can have a look together.
V: What is an impression in experience?
Color? Sound? Sensation? Taste? Smell? Thought? Imagination? Or else?
C: The first thought that pops us is:
The impression of the 'self' seems primarily to be a combination of thought and body sensation.
But then the thought comes:
Of course all these other senses - taste, smell, visual/colour, sound - also create the impression of 'self' too, don't they!!
The next thought that arises is:
But...why the hell do any of these senses require a 'self' to be able to function?! Its like, it gets bolted on to the end, like a free bonus add-on.
Now, I would like to ask you to read my original questions in the quote.

I asked if an impression is a color, sound, sensation, taste, smell, thought, imagination or something else.
And now please read your reply.

In your reply you wrote down the content of your thoughts and you talk about your assumptions of the ‘impression of the self’.

But I didn’t ask you about the ‘impression of the self’, rather I ask a question to investigate what is an impression at all (in general)?

It’s a very easy not to take the questions literally. We are all prone to do that. But this inquiry, it’s essential that you read the questions very thoroughly and take it literally.

So when there is an impression (in general), in what form the impression arise?
As thought? color? Sound? Sensation? Taste? Smell? Imagination?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:04 am

Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:13 am

Hi Vivien,
So when there is an impression (in general), in what form the impression arise?
As thought? color? Sound? Sensation? Taste? Smell? Imagination?
Ok. I see that I was giving you the answer to what is an impression of the self.
When you say an impression in general it gets a bit more tricky because my immediate answer seems to be:
An impression of what?
It seems to require an object - such as a 'self' - in order to be able to 'look'.

Am trying my best with this one...

I could give you the answer that impression takes the form of sensation combined with thought.
But it feels as if I'm giving the answer from a rehearsed place - from the thinking mind. It feels a bit forced..

In all honesty...this one has me a bit stumped.

Could you give me an object to work with?

Chris

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Vivien
Posts: 4767
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:29 am

Hi Chris,
I could give you the answer that impression takes the form of sensation combined with thought.
But it feels as if I'm giving the answer from a rehearsed place - from the thinking mind. It feels a bit forced..
What I was trying to point out is that an impression is nothing else than a thought. Can you see this?

Can you see that everything you wrote about from the ‘impression of self’ is coming in a form a thought?

Can you see that:
Impression = thought ?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:04 am

Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:02 am

Hi Vivien

What I was trying to point out is that an impression is nothing else than a thought. Can you see this?

Can you see that everything you wrote about from the ‘impression of self’ is coming in a form a thought?

Can you see that:
Impression = thought ?
Right now the thought is arising....that getting an 'impression' of something is like getting a 'sense' of something.
A bit like an intuition....it can be felt in the body as well.
In the gut perhaps (if you have the impression that someone is a trustworthy person or not).
Or in the heart (if you get the impression someone is a kind/warm person).

But I prefixed this paragraph with the words "the thought is arising"...
So I was expressing information to you from just thought.

But right now, in realtime, if a stranger walks in and says "what impression do you get about me?"....then I'm gonna check the body for the 'sense' I get about that person.

Do you see what I mean?

So it seems like you're oversimplifying what an impression is. Please can you clarify what objection
you have to impression being thought + body sensation.

(Hmmm....now (after pausing a few moments) I'm pondering if my assertions
about impression being thought + body sensation could just be an 'idea'.... Confused now.)

I might be getting into conceptualising a lot here...but I'm having trouble distinguishing between concept and direct experience.

Chris


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