The Tipping Point

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:42 am

15 people, wow!
Thanks for clarifying the process and I can see it works just fine.
Will sit with your questions and get back with you tomorrow.

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:12 pm

Hi Vivien,

I'm not feeling well today, so haven't been able to do any looking. Hoping to respond tomorrow.

Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:36 pm

All right, Sandra.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:39 pm

Hi Viven,
S; I may have been misinterpreting awareness as the being-ness that is undeniable
V: How is this beingness experienced?
I can not see it, taste it, touch it, taste it or smell it. So it is not experienced through the senses. In trying to describe "the experience" of being, it is known an aliveness, and that aliveness has sensation - vibration, pulsation - maybe then these are just sensations of the body and the energy body and not of being itself. When I say "I am here, I exist" - I used the word I to refer this experience, "my" experience... but I know that an I, me my cannot be found. So, there is just the experience of the subtle sensations of aliveness that I have been labeling as "Being".

So, I move on to examine "awareness" - the perception of being awake and aware. Clearly there is awareness, experience is known via awareness. I can not find a "me" who experiences or the "knower" of awareness.... there is just awareness and knowing. I keep looking.... hearing sounds in the distance - sound is heard - hearing is happening - the experience of hearing is known. The mind wants to attach a personal "me" to the experience of hearing...but it's really not necessary - hearing takes place with or without a me!
“I am here, I exist” - What is this ‘I’ that exists?
The I that I have been thinking exists is really just experience happening - seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and even knowing - are all just happening. "I exist" is a label for the description of what is experienced. There is only experience!!!

So the question comes - what is it that is knowing or having the experience if it is not a personal me or I ? How is experience known? Looking... It just is. But there is still a question mark here -- HOW? Does it matter?

Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:55 pm

Hi Sandra,
When I say "I am here, I exist" - I used the word I to refer this experience, "my" experience... but I know that an I, me my cannot be found. So, there is just the experience of the subtle sensations of aliveness that I have been labeling as "Being".
This is a logical conclusion: I KNOW that an I/me/my cannot be found, THEREFORE there is just the sensation of aliveness.
Can you SEE this EXPERIENTIALLY, right now, in this moment?
The I that I have been thinking exists is really just experience happening - seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and even knowing - are all just happening. "I exist" is a label for the description of what is experienced. There is only experience!!!
Yes, there is only experience :)
So, I move on to examine "awareness" - the perception of being awake and aware. Clearly there is awareness, experience is known via awareness.
HOW do you know that experience is known via awareness?
So the question comes - what is it that is knowing or having the experience if it is not a personal me or I ? How is experience known? Looking... It just is. But there is still a question mark here -- HOW? Does it matter?
Please look very carefully with these questions. Some of these questions I gave you before, but nevertheless, please look very carefully.

Is there a thought + the awareness of it?
Where does the thought end and the awareness of it starts?
Where is the dividing line between the thought and the awareness of it?

Can you find BOTH in experience (thought + awareness)?

Is there an awareness outside of what is happening, looking at it?
Is there an experiencer + the experienced?

To see this, listen to the sounds, is there a hearer here and sound there? Or there is only the sound?
In touching, is there a feeler of touch and the sensation of touch? Or there is only one sensation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:35 am

Hi Viven,

To clarify:
S: When I say "I am here, I exist" - I used the word I to refer this experience, "my" experience... but I know that an I, me my cannot be found. So, there is just the experience of the subtle sensations of aliveness that I have been labeling as "Being".
V: This is a logical conclusion: I KNOW that an I/me/my cannot be found, THEREFORE there is just the sensation of aliveness.
Can you SEE this EXPERIENTIALLY, right now, in this moment?
I used the wrong words. I do not believe this was a logical conclusion. When I said "I KNOW", what I should have said was I can see based on experience that...
THEREFORE was also a wrongly chosen word - it insinuates a logical If- Then statement. This is just my style of writing and does look like I was communicating a logical conclusion. However, it was not.
What I actually experienced was the sensation of liveliness.
S: So, I move on to examine "awareness" - the perception of being awake and aware. Clearly there is awareness, experience is known via awareness.
V: HOW do you know that experience is known via awareness?
I guess I don't actually know. "I" am aware of my experiences .... but looking, there is no "I" to be found, only experience happening. Totally confused now and I feel like I'm back at square one again. Frustrating. So strange because I could see very clearly earlier and now it's all fuzzy again.

I need to spend more time with the other questions and get back to you tomorrow.

Thanks, Vivien

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:20 pm

Hi Vivien,
Is there a thought + the awareness of it?
Where does the thought end and the awareness of it starts?
Where is the dividing line between the thought and the awareness of it?
There is only thought/thinking. It's all one. Thought happens spontaneously and it just is. There is no dividing line between thought and awareness.

Can you find BOTH in experience (thought + awareness)?
Thought is experienced. But here is where I am hung up and need your help, please. I feel like I am going backwards, so need to get clear on this. Doesn't there need to be awareness for thought to be experienced? As I sit here and look, there is awareness of sound, thoughts, emotions, sensations. Without awareness, how could these things be experienced or known?
Is there an awareness outside of what is happening, looking at it?
No, the experiences are arising within the awareness - not that there are not two separate entities, one observing the other. But that thought, sound, sensation, etc arise within the silence and emptiness of awareness.
Is there an experiencer + the experienced?
To see this, listen to the sounds, is there a hearer here and sound there? Or there is only the sound?
In touching, is there a feeler of touch and the sensation of touch? Or there is only one sensation?
Somehow this was all so clear and now I've lost it, like the "me" is doubling down and reclaiming it's position. Really strong feelings of resistance and frustration are present. Hard to look when feeling like this. I'm sucked back into feeling like the observer, hearer, feeler.

Thanks for your patience.

S.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:57 pm

Hi Sandra,
V? Can you find BOTH in experience (thought + awareness)?
S: Thought is experienced. But here is where I am hung up and need your help, please. I feel like I am going backwards, so need to get clear on this. Doesn't there need to be awareness for thought to be experienced? As I sit here and look, there is awareness of sound, thoughts, emotions, sensations. Without awareness, how could these things be experienced or known?
OK, your problem is that you are trying to understand this intellectually, instead of trusting your experience.
Language is dualistic, and thus thinking, meaning that we always assume a subject-object relationship.
You can see in experience that there is only thought, and all is one, but you cannot trust this, since your belief in duality (subject-object relation) is stronger.
As if you were trying to force experience (the seeing that there is only thought, all is one) into a subject-object relationship, and since you have found only the object (thought) now you are trying to figure out with thinking the subject part of it.

But what if there is no subject at all? What if the subject is just assumed but not actually there?
What if it’s true that a thought cannot be separated from the knowing of it?
What if the presence of a thought is ALREADY the knowing of it?
What if there is no two (thought + awareness), but just one?


Please check these out by looking at experience directly.
No, the experiences are arising within the awareness - not that there are not two separate entities, one observing the other. But that thought, sound, sensation, etc arise within the silence and emptiness of awareness.
You see, with this reply you are distorting experience and trying to force into the box of the belief that there must be a subject-object relationship. But duality (subject-object relation) can happen only in in thinking, never in reality (experience).

Can it be ACTUALLY SEEN as thoughts appear IN awareness?

In order to say that thoughts appear in awareness, there has to be two things present:

1. The thought itself
2. An awareness

And these two still not enough, since thoughts have to be SEEN to appear IN awareness.

Just like a cup and tea.
The tea is IN the cup.
The tea and the cup both can be SEEN and experienced.
And also, it can be observed/seen that the tea is INSIDE the cup.

Now do the same with thought and awareness.

The thought is present.

But where is the container, the awareness (like the cup)?

How does this awareness-container look like?
How big it is?
What is it made of?
How is it experienced?


And if you were able to find and locate this awareness, then and only then you can check if thoughts are actually appearing INSIDE this awareness. But can you?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:08 am

Thank you...this is very helpful, Vivien.
Will get back to you tomorrow.
Love,
S.

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:52 pm

Needing more time with this, Vivien. Will write again tomorrow.
Thanks,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:39 pm

All right Sandra, thanks for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:44 pm

As if you were trying to force experience (the seeing that there is only thought, all is one) into a subject-object relationship, and since you have found only the object (thought) now you are trying to figure out with thinking the subject part of it.
But what if there is no subject at all? What if the subject is just assumed but not actually there?
What if it’s true that a thought cannot be separated from the knowing of it?
What if the presence of a thought is ALREADY the knowing of it?
What if there is no two (thought + awareness), but just one?
When I look for the subject - the me who has always been thought to be there - All I find is nothing, emptiness. There's no me or I to be found. Sensations, thoughts, emotions, sounds are all experienced, but an actual experiencer is not there. "I" have always assumed myself to be the experiencer. When I try to identify what this "I" is, there is nothing there.

Observing thoughts arising... without an observer, thinker or a me - thoughts are just known.
Listening to sounds ... without a me, they are just known or experienced.
Can it be ACTUALLY SEEN as thoughts appear IN awareness?
No, it can not be seen as such. Awareness is not identifiable. There are no qualities that can be named or associated with awareness, and so it can not be seen that thoughts appear IN awareness. There is no evidence of that.

Now do the same with thought and awareness.
The thought is present.
But where is the container, the awareness (like the cup)?
How does this awareness-container look like?
How big it is?
What is it made of?
How is it experienced?
And if you were able to find and locate this awareness, then and only then you can check if thoughts are actually appearing INSIDE this awareness. But can you?
There is no container - just empty space. There are no boundaries or sides that create a container called awareness. Thoughts arise within emptiness. Nothing is there except thought.

As a side note... this week I have been dealing with some personal issues that have created an unusual amount of emotional difficulty. Many things in question, decisions to be made, and the need for a lot of self-honesty. I have been applying this inquiry process as best I can, asking "Is there anyone here who is suffering"? Just as above, there is no sufferer to be found, just suffering. Being able to see and experience this a moment here and there has helped to relieve this discomfort of the emotions associated with the situation. Wondering if there is more you could offer on this.

Thank you,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:12 am

Hi Sandra,
There is no container - just empty space. There are no boundaries or sides that create a container called awareness. Thoughts arise within emptiness. Nothing is there except thought.
Do you see that now you replaced the image of awareness being a container IN which thoughts appear to another image of awareness as being a boundariless empty space (emptiness)? Can you see that it’s the same belief just with a different image?

HOW do you know that thoughts arise WITHIN EMPTINESS?

Please describe me this emptiness in detail without any imagination, speculation or analogy.
Awareness is not identifiable. There are no qualities that can be named or associated with awareness, and so it can not be seen that thoughts appear IN awareness. There is no evidence of that.
So if awareness is not identifiable and there is no evidence that thoughts appear IN awareness, then HOW do you know that there is such thing as awareness or anything in the background, even as an emptiness?
Just because a thought suggest so?

Can you observe the emptiness itself (without its contents), just the pure emptiness itself?

As a side note... this week I have been dealing with some personal issues that have created an unusual amount of emotional difficulty. Many things in question, decisions to be made, and the need for a lot of self-honesty. I have been applying this inquiry process as best I can, asking "Is there anyone here who is suffering"? Just as above, there is no sufferer to be found, just suffering. Being able to see and experience this a moment here and there has helped to relieve this discomfort of the emotions associated with the situation. Wondering if there is more you could offer on this.
This would be a different topic than what we are investigating now.

You can look, what emotions are happening TO?
Are they sticking to someone or something?
Is there a cord or a link where emotions anchor anywhere in reality?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:11 am

Do you see that now you replaced the image of awareness being a container IN which thoughts appear to another image of awareness as being a boundariless empty space (emptiness)? Can you see that it’s the same belief just with a different image?
HOW do you know that thoughts arise WITHIN EMPTINESS?
Please describe me this emptiness in detail without any imagination, speculation or analogy.
Thoughts just appear out of nowhere. I equated that nowhere as emptiness. I now see how the mind needs to create an image or label something in order to try to understand it. I can not describe emptiness without any speculation, imagination or analogy. It was an assumption based on something my mind created to make sense of it. Looking again, thoughts don't even arise - I don't watch thoughts arising. They are just spontaneously known.
So if awareness is not identifiable and there is no evidence that thoughts appear IN awareness, then HOW do you know that there is such thing as awareness or anything in the background, even as an emptiness?
Just because a thought suggest so?
Can you observe the emptiness itself (without its contents), just the pure emptiness itself?
Looking again, I can see I was interpreting a silent mind as emptiness. Sitting with eyes closed, looking, no thoughts just looking... and the quiet stillness was referred to as awareness or emptiness. That is why I said thoughts arise within emptiness or awareness. Clearly mistaken.

Thank you for the tips on the emotional stuff. As you pointed out, it is a different investigation and so, if it's OK with you, don't want to get off track. Your feedback tonight is really helpful and I'm beginning to see things a little differently and would like to keep going.

As always, thank you for your time and guidance.
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:15 am

Hi Sandra,
Thoughts just appear out of nowhere. I equated that nowhere as emptiness. I now see how the mind needs to create an image or label something in order to try to understand it. I can not describe emptiness without any speculation, imagination or analogy. It was an assumption based on something my mind created to make sense of it. Looking again, thoughts don't even arise - I don't watch thoughts arising. They are just spontaneously known.
Looking again, I can see I was interpreting a silent mind as emptiness.
OK, please stay with this for a whole day. Look again and again to make sure that it’s utterly clear what is actually happening.

What is awareness, when you don't think about what awareness is?
And what is emptiness when you don’t think about emptiness?


Also, look into the notion of ‘mind’ who are supposedly creating this.

Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from 'a mind'?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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