The Tipping Point

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:00 am

I want you to know that I am wiping the slate clean again and will meet your next set of instructions with a beginners mind.
That's great :) This attitude will help a lot
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:27 am

Thank you. I will take my time with these and send responses tomorrow.
Have a good night, Vivien.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:31 am

It's a morning for me. We must be in a very different time zones. I'm in Australia.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:33 am

I am on the east coast of USA - New York time. It its 7:30pm here.

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:14 pm

Hi Vivien,
Is there a thought + the awareness of it?
Thought arises spontaneously out of nowhere. Spontaneously there is also awareness of it. There are not two separate actions of thinking and awareness of thinking - it is a seamless occurrence and a thought is simply known. By whom? I can not find or point to a knower, therefore there is only knowing.
Where does the thought end and the awareness of it starts?
Where is the dividing line between the thought and the awareness of it?
I can’t differentiate it - they happen simultaneously. Thinking happens and it is known to be happening at the same time. Hearing happens, and sound is known simultaneously. An emotion arises and it is felt or known. It's all one experience, not one preceding or following the other.
Is this awareness/presence you talk about something separate from all the rest?
No, it is all part of the same whole.
Looking happens - how do you know awareness/presence is what is looking?
I don't know. I guess it just made sense that if I was aware of something, then awareness is what is looking. I "feel" aware and present - I am here and I know I am... this sense of being…I exist. I know I exist because I experience being here. This part is confusing for me, Vivien. I really need more help experiencing this is a way that I can see it more clearly.
Does this awareness/presence have a shape, a location, a weight? Can you point to this awareness?
No, I can not find any physical aspects of awareness. It cannot be pointed to. It can only be known by the mere fact that awareness id experienced.
Is awareness/presence something other than, different to, or separate from experience (what is)?
No, there is just awareness of what is happening (experience). Again, there is no dividing line between awareness and what is happening, so the experience is simply known.
Can you find anything at all that is called ‘awareness or presence’, or do you just find experience (what is)?
I have always heard “You are not your thoughts, you are the experiencer of your thoughts.” When I look, I can not find an experiencer, just experience. So, thoughts arise and they are known, and that knowing is experience itself, without an actual experiencer.
Is there a me who is experiencing sensation?


Sensation is present, sensation is experienced, sensation is known - simultaneously. By whom is sensation known or experienced? When I look for an experiencer I can not find one, just experience, the known.
In other words, is there a knower and the known? Or is there only the known?
This is exactly where the last inquiry lead me - there is only the known, or knowing. When I look I can see that. It's really clear. But it’s so frustrating because I still “feel like” I am the knower when I am not looking. How can this be possible? To be honest I'm beginning to feel like this realization just wont happen for me and I'm getting discouraged. I didn't realize how stubborn this illusion of personal me really is!

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:03 am

Hi Sandra,
But it’s so frustrating because I still “feel like” I am the knower when I am not looking. How can this be possible? To be honest I'm beginning to feel like this realization just wont happen for me and I'm getting discouraged. I didn't realize how stubborn this illusion of personal me really is!
Dear Sandra, you are doing very well. You are really looking and not just intellectualizing, which is awesome :)

It doesn’t matter how long does it take to see through the illusion, it takes as long as it takes. But if you continue like this, I have no doubt that you will be able to see through it. I get that you are discourage, but actually there are ‘signs’ of the illusion cracking already :)

You’ve just realized that this illusion is deeper than you imagined. And that’s great! Now you are several steps further compared to when you started.

Actually, awareness is a very popular belief and many people just simply not willing to investigate it just took keep their beliefs intact. But you took the willingness and openness to really look at it. That’s big :)
I have always heard “You are not your thoughts, you are the experiencer of your thoughts.”
This is a common belief, but just because it’s popular, it doesn’t make it true :)
I "feel" aware and present - I am here and I know I am... this sense of being…I exist. I know I exist because I experience being here. This part is confusing for me, Vivien. I really need more help experiencing this is a way that I can see it more clearly.
We will come back to this. At first, let’s look at awareness from a different angle. We are going to go forward step-by-step.
No, I can not find any physical aspects of awareness. It cannot be pointed to. It can only be known by the mere fact that awareness id experienced.
Take a cup or any object into your hands.

And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?

Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?

And now try to experience pure awareness itself. The knower.
Try to see it. Can you?
Can you hear it?
Smell it? Taste it?
Feel it? Touch it?

Can awareness/knower a such be experienced in any way?
Or it can be only thought of?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:29 pm

Dear Vivien,

Thanks so much for the affirmation that I'm making progress. Your encouragement was very helpful!
We had a huge storm here last night and we are without power. I am writing you now from a relatives.
I may not be able to get back to you again until tomorrow.
I'm excited to have 5 Days coming up, Saturday - Wednesday, that I have a lot of time for this practice and intend on doing so. So I'm dedicating myself and hope to have lots to share!

Thank you so much for your ongoing support and patience. I truly appreciate you!

Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:37 pm

Dear Sarah,

I'm glad that my encouragement was helpful :)

I'm looking forward to your replies.

Have a nice evening,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:33 am

Hi Viven,

It's been an out of sorts two days with no power. Just came back on.
I'll be in touch tomorrow.

Love,
Sandra

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:40 am

Hi Again,

I had some time this evening to explore your last post, and here is what I found:
Take a cup or any object into your hands.
And investigate if the cup can be experienced in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?
Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?
Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?
Taste, touch, smell, see, hear. Can anything be experienced other than these senses? Yes, some things can have an intuitive feel - or felt sense, if you will. However, looking closely at the cup, or any object, I see it can just be known. I’m not thinking about whether I see it or feel it, it is simply known. But how is it known? It is experienced. And how is it experienced? Through the senses. So, when looking, I see that to experience an object requires the 5 senses.
And now try to experience pure awareness itself. The knower.
Try to see it. Can you?
Can you hear it?
Smell it? Taste it?
Feel it? Touch it?
Pure awareness can not be known by the 5 senses. But I am aware that I am aware - awareness is not one of the 5 senses.
Can awareness/knower a such be experienced in any way? Or it can be only thought of?
In deep meditation I have experienced what I would call pure, silent awareness. I’m not sure if this is the same as what you are referring to here. But in the waking state, there is no direct experience of the knower, or pure awareness. (However, there is that essence of pure being that you said we would get to at a later time.)

In a previous post I expressed my experience of awareness as a silent backdrop within which thoughts, sensations, emotions, sounds, etc rise and fall. It does not feel personal, like a “knower” per se but rather that which is behind all that is experienced. Just to clarify, are you equating pure awareness with a person "knower"? Asking so that I understand how to look.

Thanks, Vivien.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:53 am

Hi Sandra,
Taste, touch, smell, see, hear. Can anything be experienced other than these senses? Yes, some things can have an intuitive feel - or felt sense, if you will. However, looking closely at the cup, or any object, I see it can just be known. I’m not thinking about whether I see it or feel it, it is simply known. But how is it known? It is experienced. And how is it experienced? Through the senses. So, when looking, I see that to experience an object requires the 5 senses.
Let’s have a closer look on intuition.

You say that it’s a felt sense.

What is a ‘felt sense’ exactly?
Isn’t a ‘felt sense’ a sensation?

Can anything else be FELT other than a sensation?


Isn’t intuition a sensation + thought (which talks about intuition)?

Is there ANY other component of an intuition, other than sensation + thought?


If you make that anything can be experienced outside of the 5 senses, you have to evidentially prove it.
Can ANYthing be experienced other than with the 5 senses?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:49 am

Hi Viven,
What is a ‘felt sense’ exactly?
Isn’t a ‘felt sense’ a sensation?
Can anything else be FELT other than a sensation?
Isn’t intuition a sensation + thought (which talks about intuition)?
Is there ANY other component of an intuition, other than sensation + thought?
Yes, I can see that a felt sense - intuition - is really just subtle sensation coupled with thought.

If you make that anything can be experienced outside of the 5 senses, you have to evidentially prove it.
Can ANYthing be experienced other than with the 5 senses?

No, the 5 senses are how we experience everything.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:17 am

Hi Sandra,
No, the 5 senses are how we experience everything.
Are you 100% sure about is, or you have doubts?

We are going through your previous replies about awareness in small (digestible) steps.
Previously you wrote:
In deep meditation I have experienced what I would call pure, silent awareness. I’m not sure if this is the same as what you are referring to here. But in the waking state, there is no direct experience of the knower, or pure awareness.
Now, please put aside the memory of deep meditation you talked about before.
We can never rely on a memory.
Why?
Because a memory is just a thought in this moment. Not an actual experience.

Can you see that a memory is not an experience?
Can you see that a thought doesn’t contain experience?
Pure awareness can not be known by the 5 senses.
So, if ‘pure awareness’ cannot be known by the 5 senses, then how is it experienced in this moment?
But I am aware that I am aware - awareness is not one of the 5 senses
“I am aware that I am aware” – what is this ‘I’ that is aware?

Please point with your finger (literally) to the ‘I’ that which is aware that it’s aware.
Where do you point at?


Please be very thorough with your looking.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:54 pm

S: No, the 5 senses are how we experience everything.
V: Are you 100% sure about is, or you have doubts?
Direct experience in the moment is known through the 5 senses. The sense organs are the vehicles through which we are able to interpret experience. There was some gray area in the aspect of intuition - but looking at, the felt sense (sensation) and thought - are the result of something that is sensed - thought and sensation are not perceived directly through the eyes, ears, nose, skin or mouth. Thought and sensation arise as a result of experience. Therefore, intuition is not experience.
Can you see that a memory is not an experience?
Can you see that a thought doesn’t contain experience?
Yes, I can see this clearly. When I recall a memory, it comes in the form of a thought and maybe an emotion/sensation will arise as a result. A memory can not be sensed in the present moment, it can only be remembered as thought. It no longer exists and therefore can not be experienced by the senses.
S; Pure awareness can not be known by the 5 senses.
V: So, if ‘pure awareness’ cannot be known by the 5 senses, then how is it experienced in this moment?
If I am to look at it through direct experience, what I find is that pure awareness can not be experienced through the 5 senses. It cannot be seen, touched, heard, tasted or smelled. And since I have already investigated this (above), then I have to conclude that pure awareness can not be experienced in this moment. I think I have a "sense of it", but that is not direct experience. I may have been misinterpreting awareness as the being-ness that is undeniable - that I am here, I exist.
But I am aware that I am aware - awareness is not one of the 5 senses
“I am aware that I am aware” – what is this ‘I’ that is aware?
Please point with your finger (literally) to the ‘I’ that which is aware that it’s aware.
Where do you point at?
What is that that is aware of of all this? I know that I can not find an "I" who is aware, but there is always awareness of experience. There is just awareness of experience, but it's not personal, not an "I". Is that it?! Experience is known through the senses, but there is no "I" doing the experiencing. The word I is used to communicate the experience and give it context, but the "I" is not the experiencer. I can see this when I look at it, but outside of looking, still feeling like the "I". But it's all getting clearer!

I'm wondering if there is a way for us to better coordinate our communication around the time zone difference. Right now it's 8:50am here and 11:50pm there. I'd love to be getting your feedback earlier so that I can work more with it before the end of the day. 5pm here is 8am there, I believe. Just wondering how to make it possible for us to have a couple more exchanges in a day. If not, I am very grateful for what we are able to do!

Thanks, Viven!

Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:08 am

Hi Sandra,
I may have been misinterpreting awareness as the being-ness that is undeniable
How is this beingness experienced?

Please describe it as precisely as you can without using analogies, imagination or speculation.
- that I am here, I exist.
“I am here, I exist” - What is this ‘I’ that exists?

Please point with your finger (literally) to the ‘I’ that exists.
Where do you point at?
I can see this when I look at it, but outside of looking, still feeling like the "I". But it's all getting clearer!
I’m glad that it’s getting clearer :)
I'm wondering if there is a way for us to better coordinate our communication around the time zone difference. Right now it's 8:50am here and 11:50pm there. I'd love to be getting your feedback earlier so that I can work more with it before the end of the day. 5pm here is 8am there, I believe. Just wondering how to make it possible for us to have a couple more exchanges in a day. If not, I am very grateful for what we are able to do!
I have about 15 clients, and I reply to all of you in my free time. So that’s the best I can do.

But, you are not losing anything. Actually, those who tend to reply several times a day, are not advancing faster. Quite the contrary. The questions I give you (even if I give you just one) meant to be looked at for a whole day again and again and again, and a bit more. And even when it’s clear, just look more. Look at the same thing again and again, hundred times a day.

It’s about the constant and repeated looking and looking and more looking that brings about the realization.
If we would converse several time a day, you wouldn’t have the opportunity and time to look the same thing again and again (hundred times a day). So time difference is not an issue.

Faster is not better :)

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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