The Tipping Point

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:49 am

Hi Vivien,
Knowing it without a doubt means that it’s known to be a fiction DESPITE temporarily taking the self to be real, many-many time each day.
Can you see the difference?
Yes, I can see the difference. Thanks for clarifying this point again. I understand.
So the same way, do you believe in the existence of a separate self living inside the body, thinking thoughts, moving the body? Do you believe that there is something inside?
I have seen in DE that a separate self cannot be found. Yet, to be completely honest, I still feel resistance to saying I do not believe there is a separate self inside the body. I need more experience with looking and seeing no self for it to outweigh the times I am more often caught in the illusion, which seems just as real and seeing no self.
S: I'm a little frustrated that I'm still in this place of not fully knowing what's real and what's not, with total conviction.
V: OK, then I ask you how do you know if something is real or not?
How do you know if Batman is real or not?
How do you know if Tooth Fairy is real or not?
HOW?
Please articulate as clearly as you can how you distinguish between fantasy and reality. How do you know if something is just a fantasy/imagination or reality?
Something is a fantasy when it can not be known by direct experience. Otherwise, it is just a concept or idea. The Tooth Fairy could never be known or seen or touched or heard because she does not exist. When something is real it can be experienced with the senses, it can be known in direct experienced.
You experience all of the above things? You experience them? Are you sure?
No, I was trying to say that thoughts, sensations and emotions are experienced, so it has always been assumed that there was a me, a separate self who is the experiencer experiencing those things.
Are you saying that you are literally experiencing a separate self?
There is literally an experience of a self being in control?
There is an experience of a self thinking?
An experience of a self feeling?
An experience of a self moving the body?
All of these are experienced? HOW?
There is the perception that there is a separate self, a me, experiencing these things. It has always "seemed like" there was the experience of a me, the feeling of a me here inside this body. Because there was always the assumption and belief that there is a me here, the experience has been "I feel", "I move", "I think" - but now I can see that feeling, movement and thinking happen spontaneously and the are known via the experience of them.

Thanks,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:43 am

Hi Sandra,
I have seen in DE that a separate self cannot be found. Yet, to be completely honest, I still feel resistance to saying I do not believe there is a separate self inside the body. I need more experience with looking and seeing no self for it to outweigh the times I am more often caught in the illusion, which seems just as real and seeing no self.
OK, then find the EXACT LOCATION of this self.

Where is it exactly?
What is it like?
How big it is?
Does it have a shape or color?
How does this self is experienced exactly?


No theory, no explanation, just the pure facts.
No, I was trying to say that thoughts, sensations and emotions are experienced, so it has always been assumed that there was a me, a separate self who is the experiencer experiencing those things.
Yes, this is what you believed in your whole life. But now, you have to check if it’s true!

So is it? Is there a separate self who is experiencing sensations and emotions?
WHERE exactly?
There is the perception that there is a separate self, a me, experiencing these things.
There is a perception that there is a separate self? Are you sure?
How does this perception of a separate self appear?


Don’t go to explanations, just write about the perception of the me/self experiencing things.
It has always "seemed like" there was the experience of a me, the feeling of a me here inside this body.
Please tell me, how does this ‘seems like there is an experience of me’ is actually appear?

Don’t explain, don’t go to theories, don’t write what you have been believing or assuming, but write only about the pure facts.

And by the way, you didn’t answer my questioned.
Please do NOT bulk reply! Look with every single question I give you.

You didn’t really look, you just wrote an explanation. You have to take my questions literally, and look with each of them one-by-one very thoroughly.

So here are the questions again:

Are you saying that you are literally experiencing a separate self?
There is literally an experience of a self being in control?
There is an experience of a self thinking?
An experience of a self feeling?
An experience of a self moving the body?
All of these are experienced? HOW?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:19 pm

OK, then find the EXACT LOCATION of this self.
Where is it exactly?
A location of the me, as self, cannot be found.
What is it like?
A separate entity called me or I can not be seen, touched, tasted, smelled. It is only perceived as a feeling of Existence/Existing. The word me or I is used to make reference to this body/mind/person/expression of existence - this organism. But an actual self, the experience of being a me, is just that self-referencing thought pointing to the expression of existence that is called Sandra.
How big it is?
It can’t be found and the feeling of existing/existence has no borders or boundaries, no beginning and no end. It just is.
Does it have a shape or color?
No, there is are no physical qualities that can be seen.
How is this self experienced exactly?
The thought “me” comes and then attention is turned toward the body and whatever emotions or sensations or subsequent thoughts arise… and the experience of all these things have been assumed and interpreted as the me/self/I. But it is seen now that these things just happen/arise and are experienced, but they are not a self.
S: No, I was trying to say that thoughts, sensations and emotions are experienced, so it has always been assumed that there was a me, a separate self who is the experiencer experiencing those things.
V: Yes, this is what you believed in your whole life. But now, you have to check if it’s true!
So is it? Is there a separate self who is experiencing sensations and emotions?
These things are just experienced. A separated self who is doing the experiencing cannot be found. There is the urge to relate the experiencing to a me, to make it personal, but all that is seen is in DE is thoughts, sensations, and emotions coming and going - they are experienced, but an experiencer is not seen, there is only the habit of thinking that there is a personal me doing the experiencing. Without being able to see, touch, hear, taste or smell a me/separate self in DE, I can not say that there is one.
WHERE exactly?
A separate me/self entity can not be located. The experience of existing, of being here, is non-specific - it just is. Existence is here, now. Aliveness is here, now. This is undeniable in DE, but there is not an identifiable me/self to attach it to. When a sensation happens in the body, there is a self-referencing thought that it’s happening to “me” - but I know I am not the body - the body is experienced.
S: There is the perception that there is a separate self, a me, experiencing these things.
V: There is a perception that there is a separate self? Are you sure?
No, the word perception means that a separate self can be perceived. This is not accurate. No separate self can be perceived. There is only a non-specific, non-personal aliveness/awareness that is here.
How does this perception of a separate self appear?
It appears as emotions, thoughts, sensations that are assumed to be a me, or experienced by a me. This is the illusion. A separate self actually does not appear. It’s all just an assumption.
S: It has always "seemed like" there was the experience of a me, the feeling of a me here inside this body.
V: Please tell me, how does this ‘seems like there is an experience of me’ is actually appear?
It appears as thoughts, emotions and sensations coupled with the feeling of existing - together, all wrapped up in this body as a me.
Are you saying that you are literally experiencing a separate self?
Before, yes - there was the belief that I was experiencing a separate self. All the thoughts, emotions and sensations in this body have been believed to be happening to a me/separate self. However, now in DE I can not identify a separate self - there is just the experience of these things without a specific experiencer to be found. There are thoughts, emotions and sensations are happening and experienced. A separate self os not experienced.
There is literally an experience of a self being in control?
There is not the experience of a self in control, but rather the experience of life unfolding. It appears that choices are being made, decisions being made - but the self making them cannot be found.
There is an experience of a self thinking?
There is not the experience of a self thinking, rather just the experience of thinking - of thoughts coming and going on their own. Even when I have to answer a question and “think about it” to get an answer - the thinking happens, answers come but the who/self that is thought to be doing it cannot be seen.
An experience of a self feeling?
There is just feeling. Feeling is experienced. An experiencer, a self doing the experiencing, is not found. The feelings feel personal, but if I take an honest look at DE, feelings are just present. A self that is doing the experiencing of feelings can not be seen.
An experience of a self moving the body?
The body just moves. An entity that moves the the body is not found.
All of these are experienced? HOW?
With all this looking, I can see that a self doing any of these things is not experienced.
The self can not be found. Thinking happens, sensations are experienced, feelings arise, anything perceveid through the sense organs is experienced. But an actual separate me, self, I cannot be experienced. The only thing that is experienced as a self is this aliveness/ awareness - “I” exist. I I do not make it personal, “I exist”, then it is just existence. Existence is here. Awareness is here. Aliveness is here.

Is what makes “my” experience personal are the thoughts, feelings, sensations that are arising in this body-mind different from my husband, son, daughter, neighbor, etc. in any given moment? Two people can experience the same moment differently. What accounts for the personal unique experience of the moment?

Thank you, Vivien!

Much love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:10 am

Hi Sandra,

You repeatedly made statements like, the ‘self cannot be found’ or ‘cannot be experienced’. That’s good, however, with this investigation this is not good enough.

Since those statements say only that it cannot be found, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not lurking somewhere.
You have to make sure with your replies. So look until you can say clearly yes or no. This is essential.
But an actual self, the experience of being a me, is just that self-referencing thought pointing to the expression of existence that is called Sandra.
What is the experience of the ‘existence of Sandra’? How is the ‘existence of Sandra’ is experienced?
As a sensation? As a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Or an appearing thought? Imagination?
V: How big it is?
S: It can’t be found and the feeling of existing/existence has no borders or boundaries, no beginning and no end. It just is.
Ohh, so you are saying that the ‘feeling of existing/existence’ = self/me?

Please describe me the ‘feeling of existing/existance’ as precisely as you can.
What kind of FEELING is it?


Put the attention to the sensations of the feet. After a while, put the attention to the ‘feeling of existing’. Then move back and forth between the two.

What is the difference between the sensations of the feet and the ‘feeling of existing’?
The sensations of the feet are in the location of the feet, right? So where is the location of the ‘feeling of existing’?
Is there ANY difference between the two sensations?

A separated self who is doing the experiencing cannot be found. There is the urge to relate the experiencing to a me, to make it personal,
Urge? How does this urge to ‘relate experiencing to a me’ is experienced?
As a sensation? Sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Or maybe it’s just a thought, nothing else?

How does the urge ‘making it personal’ is experienced?
Does this ‘urge’ exist outside of thoughts? If yes, how and where?

And it seems that you believe that there is a separation or distinction between experiencing and experienced. But is this so?

Is experiencing is something different than experience itself?
Are there two things going on: experiencing + the experienced?

The experience of existing, of being here, is non-specific - it just is.
Does this ‘experience of existing’ exist outside of the 5 senses?
Is it something else (or something more) than the mixture of sounds + colors + sensations + tastes + smells + thoughts?

By which senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching) is ‘existing’ is experienced?
There is only a non-specific, non-personal aliveness/awareness that is here.
OK, we are getting to the heart of the problem.

So far you were talking about existing/existence, then it somehow turned into the notion of awareness. And this is the key point here. We looked at this before several times, we also looked into the notion of aliveness/existence, but believes die hard. So you have to look very thoroughly this time.

Your problems are the beliefs of aliveness/awareness, as if there were something outside of experience what was feeling/being alive, and what was aware of what is going on.

We are going to come back to this, but I’ve already asked a lot of questions, so first look at with those VERY-VERY THOROUGHLY AND MANY-MANY TIMES.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:50 pm

Hi Vivien,
S: But an actual self, the experience of being a me, is just that self-referencing thought pointing to the expression of existence that is called Sandra.
V: What is the experience of the ‘existence of Sandra’? How is the ‘existence of Sandra’ is experienced?
As a sensation? As a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Or an appearing thought? Imagination?
It is experienced as all of the expressions of this Body-Mind. There is an existence here that is called Sandra. Thoughts, sensations, emotions, this physical body are all referenced to as an expression of the label Sandra. A word is needed to point to this expression of existence, and it is called Sandra.
S: It can’t be found and the feeling of existing/existence has no borders or boundaries, no beginning and no end. It just is.
V: Ohh, so you are saying that the ‘feeling of existing/existence’ = self/me?
Please describe me the ‘feeling of existing/existance’ as precisely as you can.
What kind of FEELING is it?
I'm saying in lieu of finding a me, all that is found is the feeling of existing, of being .
V: Put the attention to the sensations of the feet. After a while, put the attention to the ‘feeling of existing’. Then move back and forth between the two.
What is the difference between the sensations of the feet and the ‘feeling of existing’?
The sensations in the feet are a physical sensation. The feeling of existing is not a feeling in the way of a physical sensation, but rather a knowing that I am here, I exist - there is no disputing that there is an awareness of existing.
The sensations of the feet are in the location of the feet, right? So where is the location of the ‘feeling of existing’?
Is there ANY difference between the two sensations?
The feeling of existing is not locatable. It has no location or boundaries. It just is.
S:A separated self who is doing the experiencing cannot be found. There is the urge to relate the experiencing to a me, to make it personal,
V: Urge? How does this urge to ‘relate experiencing to a me’ is experienced?
As a sensation? Sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Or maybe it’s just a thought, nothing else?
The urge is the habit of returning back to the me as a thought, of feeling the pull back to the thought of a me.
How does the urge ‘making it personal’ is experienced?
Does this ‘urge’ exist outside of thoughts? If yes, how and where?
The urge is just the thought of a me returning.
And it seems that you believe that there is a separation or distinction between experiencing and experienced. But is this so?
In looking, in the moment there is just experience.
Is experiencing is something different than experience itself?
No, its all the same - just experience.
Are there two things going on: experiencing + the experienced?
No, just experience itself.
S: The experience of existing, of being here, is non-specific - it just is.
V: Does this ‘experience of existing’ exist outside of the 5 senses?
Is it something else (or something more) than the mixture of sounds + colors + sensations + tastes + smells + thoughts?
Being, Awareness, the knowing of Existing without it being a thought - I don't know how to find the words to describe it to you. There is an awakeness, an aliveness that is here. Simultaneous with that is is the experience of the environment, the body, thoughts, sounds, sensations, tastes, smells. They are not separate. This is experience itself, existence itself, and it's all one thing.
By which senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching) is ‘existing’ is experienced?
By all of them -existence is known via experience, experience is known via existence. There is no separation.It's all happening simultaneously.

Thanks, Vivien.
I appreciate you sticking with me. I often feel like giving up.

Love,
Sandra

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:37 pm

Dear Vivien,

I am just remembering now that you are in Australia. I hope that you and your loved ones are safe from this tragedy.
Sending love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:13 am

Hi Sandra,
I am just remembering now that you are in Australia. I hope that you and your loved ones are safe from this tragedy.
Thanks for kindness of thinking of me. Yes, I’m safe, I live in an area where there is less fire.
I appreciate you sticking with me. I often feel like giving up.
Before replying to your comments, we have to look into this. Since the possibility of giving up can be seen from your comments, since most of them are not coming from looking, but rather from thinking, from intellectualization. It seems that you are not looking in the direction that my questions are pointing at. I feel we are going in circles, and something is holding you back to really look. Both your comments and my questions are repetitive. You might not like what I’m saying, but I have to be honest with you. There are some beliefs that you are firmly holding on, even when I point them out repeatedly. So before going on, please contemplate on your commitment to this inquiry.

Do you feel ready to questions your beliefs?
Are you ready to look and see that how you perceive things might not be how they actually are?
Are you willing and ready to put aside literally everything how you think things are, to be clean slate, and take my questions very literally and seriously, word-by-word, and really look where they are point to?
On a scale of 1 to 10, how committed you are?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:59 pm

Dear Vivien,

I appreciate your honesty and you pointing out where I am stuck.

I also have to share that I am honestly looking and not thinking and intellectualizing most of the time. I am sure there are times that I slip back into that habit, but on the whole I am sincerely looking. What may be happening is that I am *expecting* to find something more than what I am seeing and also over intellectualizing my answers. I can see it's much simpler than I've been making it. I am committed to the process and want to continue, if you are willing.
Do you feel ready to questions your beliefs?
Yes, I have always been ready and willing to do this.
Are you ready to look and see that how you perceive things might not be how they actually are?
Yes
Are you willing and ready to put aside literally everything how you think things are, to be clean slate, and take my questions very literally and seriously, word-by-word, and really look where they are point to?
Yes, absolutely.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how committed you are?
10

Let's keep going! Please tell me where to look next and I will do my very best.

Thank you,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:09 am

Hi Sandra,
What may be happening is that I am *expecting* to find something more than what I am seeing and also over intellectualizing my answers. I can see it's much simpler than I've been making it.
Yes, and this is something very important.
V: V: What is the experience of the ‘existence of Sandra’? How is the ‘existence of Sandra’ is experienced?
As a sensation? As a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Or an appearing thought? Imagination?
S: It is experienced as all of the expressions of this Body-Mind. There is an existence here that is called Sandra. Thoughts, sensations, emotions, this physical body are all referenced to as an expression of the label Sandra. A word is needed to point to this expression of existence, and it is called Sandra.
You are making a big intellectual leap here.
You are making a logical conclusion that the body-mind is the experience of a self.
First, it seems that it’s not clear what is experience and what is not.
Second, it’s still believed that there is such thing as mind.
Also, you put together the body and the imagined mind, and label them as ‘existence’.

And you are not seeing that what you are talking about as ‘existence’ is the illusion of the self itself!

So at first, start with looking at what is experience and what is imagination.

What is the difference between experience and imagination?
What is it exactly that we are referring to when we are talking about experience?
What is it exactly that can be experienced?
And what are we referring to when we are talking about imagination/fiction?
And what is the difference between experience and thought?
And what is the difference between thought and imagination?


Please look at these questions very thoroughly, and ALWAYS reply to them ONE-BY-ONE, never bulk-reply.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:48 pm

Hi Vivien,
What is the difference between experience and imagination?
Experience is known vis the 5 senses. Imagination is just a thought.
What is it exactly that we are referring to when we are talking about experience?
Experience is what can be known via taste, touch, sight, smell, or heard. These experiences are "proof" that something is real. If something cannot be experienced via the senses, it is not real.
What is it exactly that can be experienced?
Something that can actually be known through the senses.
And what are we referring to when we are talking about imagination/fiction?
Imagination/Fiction is something that is experienced as a thought or belief (which is just a thought). Imagination is also something that we take to be true or an assumption, even though we have not experienced it directly.

And what is the difference between experience and thought?
Experience is a direct knowing of what is real or true through the senses. Thought just comes and goes, is not directly known through the senses.
And what is the difference between thought and imagination?
There is no difference. Imagination is a thought. If you were to ask me to imagine something, it would occur as a thought.

Thank you,
Sandra

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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:47 am

Hi Sandra,
Imagination/Fiction is something that is experienced as a thought or belief (which is just a thought).
Imagination is NEVER experienced as a thought, since thought content never contains experience. Is this clear?

Can the thought of ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought of ‘hot’ be felt?


Previously you wrote:
The feeling of existing is not locatable. It has no location or boundaries. It just is.
So how does the ‘feeling of existing’ is experienced? By which of the 5 senses?

Look very closely.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:07 am

Hi Vivien,
S: Imagination/Fiction is something that is experienced as a thought or belief (which is just a thought).
V: Imagination is NEVER experienced as a thought, since thought content never contains experience. Is this clear?
If you ask me to imagine riding an unicorn, it appears as an image/thought.Imagination is thought. I guess you didn't want me to use the words "experienced as thought". I get that experience is only known through the senses, so I shouldnt have used the word experience. When I describe a thought, do you prefer I say " when a thought arises".
Can the thought of ‘sweet’ be tasted?
No it can not.
Can the thought of ‘hot’ be felt?
No it can not.
S: The feeling of existing is not locatable. It has no location or boundaries. It just is.
V: So how does the ‘feeling of existing’ is experienced? By which of the 5 senses?
The feeling of existing I was referring to (when I close my eyes and just be and notice the aliveness that is here) I used to refer to that as awareness or being. If I am now to use only the 5 senses to identify/label awareness/being, I can not. If I only describe what is seen through DE, the "feeling of existing" is not experienced at all. There is just experience. Feeling sensations in the body, hearing sounds, seeing things... they are just forms of experience, not feelings of existing.

However, I am confused still because it is indisputable that "I" am here, "I" exist.... but is it not an "I" that exists, but rather just existence that exists? And is existence just experience without an experiencer?

Thank you,
Sandra
"

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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:06 am

Hi Sandra,
If you ask me to imagine riding an unicorn, it appears as an image/thought.Imagination is thought. I guess you didn't want me to use the words "experienced as thought". I get that experience is only known through the senses, so I shouldnt have used the word experience. When I describe a thought, do you prefer I say " when a thought arises".
It's not about the words we use. It’s SOLELY about what YOU CAN SEE EXPERIENTIALLY. It doesn’t matter what words you use as long as there is CLARITY of seeing.

Don’t try to use certain words because you think I would prefer those better. Please never do that. Since that would be totally misleading. Always write about what you can ACTUALLY SEE EXPERIENTIALLY.
However, I am confused still because it is indisputable that "I" am here, "I" exist.... but is it not an "I" that exists, but rather just existence that exists? And is existence just experience without an experiencer?
This is exactly what we are investigating.

Find the experiencer. Where is it exactly?

How does the experiencer look like, feel like, how does the experiencer itself appears?

I am confused still because it is indisputable that "I" am here, "I" exist....-
This is a HUGE belief.

HOW would be the “I am here” or “I exist” be an indisputable experience?

If it’s so indisputable, then describe to me this ‘I’ that is here, that is exist.
And you CANNOT USE the words ‘aliveness’ or ‘awareness’, since those are just words, just concepts.
You have to describe this ‘I’ which is supposedly here with facts. With evidential facts. As if you were on a court, and you would have to prove that this ‘I’, which is supposedly here’ exist. So prove it! But only with evidential facts.
The feeling of existing I was referring to (when I close my eyes and just be and notice the aliveness that is here) I used to refer to that as awareness or being. If I am now to use only the 5 senses to identify/label awareness/being, I can not.
You are BELIEVING that there is a ‘something’ what you LABEL aliveness and awareness, and you believe that this imaginary ‘thing’ is the ‘I’, the self, which is the experiencer of experience.

You are even making the claim that it’s indisputable.

But on what bases do you make the claim that it’s indisputable, if it’s LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to experience?

Or do you believe that it’s possible to experience anything other than with the 5 senses?
If yes, how exactly?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:04 pm

Hi Vivien,
S: However, I am confused still because it is indisputable that "I" am here, "I" exist.... but is it not an "I" that exists, but rather just existence that exists? And is existence just experience without an experiencer?
This is exactly what we are investigating.

V:Find the experiencer. Where is it exactly?
There is no experiencer. I cannot find one. There is only experience.

V: How does the experiencer look like, feel like, how does the experiencer itself appears?
It does not appear. There is no experiencer. There is only experience.
S: I am confused still because it is indisputable that "I" am here, "I" exist....-
V: HOW would be the “I am here” or “I exist” be an indisputable experience?
I put the word I in quotation marks, which did not clearly communicate what I was trying to say. The quotes were referring to the thought of I, the false sense of a self. SOMETHING is here, and I was calling it "I" as a way to refer to it. That was wrong. I see that it is not a thing at all, I just don't know how to accurately communicate it. I will continue to try to be more accurate with my words.
If it’s so indisputable, then describe to me this ‘I’ that is here, that is exist.
And you CANNOT USE the words ‘aliveness’ or ‘awareness’, since those are just words, just concepts.
You have to describe this ‘I’ which is supposedly here with facts. With evidential facts. As if you were on a court, and you would have to prove that this ‘I’, which is supposedly here’ exist. So prove it! But only with evidential facts.
There is absolutely nothing here and no way to prove that the I/Me exists. It can not be known through the 5 senses. Thinking happens, looking happens, hearing happens, feeling happens. I look for the me who I've thought to be the experiencer, and it is not there. All there is experience. The direct experience of life happening, as experience itself. What is seen is experience only, nothing else.
S: The feeling of existing I was referring to (when I close my eyes and just be and notice the aliveness that is here) I used to refer to that as awareness or being. If I am now to use only the 5 senses to identify/label awareness/being, I can not.

V: You are BELIEVING that there is a ‘something’ what you LABEL aliveness and awareness, and you believe that this imaginary ‘thing’ is the ‘I’, the self, which is the experiencer of experience.

You are even making the claim that it’s indisputable.

But on what bases do you make the claim that it’s indisputable, if it’s LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to experience?
I can not make the claim that an I or a me is indisputably here. Existence is here. Experience is here. The belief has been that THAT is me. It is not. A me is not here and can not be experienced. All there is is experience.

Or do you believe that it’s possible to experience anything other than with the 5 senses?
If yes, how exactly?
No, there is not other way to experience than with the 5 senses.

Thank you,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:37 am

Hi Sandra,
There is no experiencer. I cannot find one. There is only experience.
So then what about the aliveness or awareness you said that it’s indisputably there?
Is there an awareness or aliveness that knows or aware of experience?
The quotes were referring to the thought of I, the false sense of a self. SOMETHING is here, and I was calling it "I" as a way to refer to it.
So what is this something?
Describe this something as precisely as you can without using any analogies, theories or assumptions.

Is this something different to, or something else than experience itself?

Are there two things, this ‘something’ + experience?

If yes, describe it what is this exactly.
If not, why is there a distinction between this ‘something’ and experience?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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