The Tipping Point

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:15 am

Hi Sandra,
V: Please look, who/what would let go of Sandra?
S: There isn't anyone that would let go of Sandra.
Would you call this false self (Sandra) "ego"?
It doesn’t matter how it’s called.

Have you actually checked in experience if there is ANYTHING who/what would perform the act of letting go of Sandra? Or you just thought about it?
V: Is there another you/self who would let go of the other self, Sandra?
S: What is it that sees/recognizes the false self? Whatever that is, wouldn't it let go of the concept of Sandra once it is seen through?
Sandra, you didn’t look at experience, rather you just intellectually contemplated the question, and wrote back with more questions as the result of your contemplation.

My questions are not philosophical ones to contemplate them. Every question I give you is a pointer for you where to LOOK.

If there is something you have to let go of, then it’s trying to think through this. You have to get out of the realm of the intellect, and you have to observe what is here right now. To SEE what can be known WITHOUT THOUGHTS.

So I’m giving you the same questions again. This time, please DON’T THINK about the answers. Rather stop, and LOOK FOR a self that could let go of Sandra. ACTIVELY SEARCH FOR it.

Where is the one that could let go of Sandra? Where? Find its exact physical location.

Who/what would let go of Sandra?

Is there another you/self who would let go of the other self, Sandra?

Where is this another self who tried to take good care of Sandra?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:44 am

Thank you for your feedback, Vivian.

This did not feel like it was an intellectual contemplation to me.

When I look, I can not find anything that would let go of Sandra.

I will look at it all again tomorrow and get back to you on these questions.

I appreciate your help.
Good night.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:59 am

Intellectualization is often unconscious habit :)
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:26 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for sticking with me on this.
Have you actually checked in experience if there is ANYTHING who/what would perform the act of letting go of Sandra? Or you just thought about it?
To clarify from yesterday, I did actually check in with experience and did not approach it by thinking about it. When I looked, I could not find an entity who would perform the act of letting go.

I will address your questions again, as you requested:
Where is the one that could let go of Sandra? Where? Find its exact physical location.
There is no one to be found and no physical location.
Who/what would let go of Sandra?
Again, I can't see any who or what would do the letting go.
V: Is there another you/self who would let go of the other self, Sandra?
S: What is it that sees/recognizes the false self? Whatever that is, wouldn't it let go of the concept of Sandra once it is seen through?
What I was trying to communicate here last night was, when I was looking, I inquired about who was doing the looking, and is it possible that the one who is doing the looking is the one who would do the letting go? But what I see now is that there is no one doing the looking, looking is just happening. With the intention to look, looking happens.
Where is this another self who tried to take good care of Sandra?
There was no other self - Sandra was taking care of Sandra. The sense of a separate me, as a doer, was the one who has thought that she was taking care of herself. If Sandra is an illusion, then who was deciding what to do and what not to do? How to be or how not to be? Don't we have choices? Who decides?

Thank you in advance for helping me understand this.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:28 pm

Hi Sandra,

Thank you for your clarifications.
But what I see now is that there is no one doing the looking, looking is just happening. With the intention to look, looking happens.
Yes, exactly. Nice looking.
If Sandra is an illusion, then who was deciding what to do and what not to do? How to be or how not to be? Don't we have choices? Who decides?
These are very good questions.

Look here now. There are colours, sounds, thoughts, sensations, emotion.

What are you in control of right now?

Can you stop colours, sounds, sensations from showing up?
Can you let them to show up?

Is there a self/I in charge of what colours, sounds, sensations are present?
Do they all appear on their own, or a self/I is making them to appear?

Is there a control over ANYTHING?

What do you notice?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:59 pm

What are you in control of right now?
Can you stop colours, sounds, sensations from showing up?
Can you let them to show up?
Is there a self/I in charge of what colours, sounds, sensations are present?
Do they all appear on their own, or a self/I is making them to appear?
Is there a control over ANYTHING?
What do you notice?
Everything - all of that - just appears on it's own. I don't make any of it happen nor can I stop any of it from happening.
Involuntary thoughts, sensations, emotions, sights, sounds - everything just appears and disappears without any involvement from "me". I don't control any of it - I can see this very clearly.

Where I get hung up is with the thoughts that seem intentional as opposed to the ones that just appear out of nowhere. When I want or need to think about something or focus on something or come up with an answer, it appears that I have control over where I direct those thoughts. Like writing this reply - what is determining the right words to use to accurately communicate this question to you?

Thanks, Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:10 am

Hi Sandra,
Where I get hung up is with the thoughts that seem intentional as opposed to the ones that just appear out of nowhere. When I want or need to think about something or focus on something or come up with an answer, it appears that I have control over where I direct those thoughts.
Please try to ‘intentionally’ think of a 2-digit number. After, investigate:

Why did you choose that number?

Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know?
If not, why don’t you know?


If you are the thinker of thoughts, then you must know EXACTLY how you create them.
So how did you create the thought of the number you choose?

Repeat the experiment at least 10 times (or more) before replying.
Like writing this reply - what is determining the right words to use to accurately communicate this question to you?
We will come back to this soon.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:28 am

Why did you choose that number?
Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know?
If not, why don’t you know?
Very interesting! I have no idea why I chose those numbers. I don't know because they just popped into my head - they just appeared out of nowhere - just like other thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc. Apparently I did not choose or actually "think" of them.
If you are the thinker of thoughts, then you must know EXACTLY how you create them.
So how did you create the thought of the number you choose?
I have absolutely no idea - they just appeared. So, they are coming from someplace other than "me". When I look, I can't find the source.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:32 am

Hi Sandra,
Very interesting! I have no idea why I chose those numbers. I don't know because they just popped into my head - they just appeared out of nowhere - just like other thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc. Apparently I did not choose or actually "think" of them.
Nice :)

So is there such thing as ‘intentional thinking’?
Can you think anything 'intentionally'?


Let’s go back to your previous comment:
Like writing this reply - what is determining the right words to use to accurately communicate this question to you?
Please look for yourself as you write the next reply back to me.

Do you find an entity or a ‘me’ creating or choosing with words to use?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:49 am

Hi Vivien,
So is there such thing as ‘intentional thinking’?
Can you think anything 'intentionally'?
What I'm seeing (and I admit it's hard is believe) is that everything just appears spontaneously?! What has always seemed like a choice or a decision was just exactly what was needed without any influence by a "me"?
Do you find an entity or a ‘me’ creating or choosing with words to use?
No! Words just appear. I have always thought that "I" was the one "choosing" the right words to express my thoughts. But now I am seeing that thoughts just appear, words just appear, and there is no thinker or entity creating them.

Even though I can see this, I still wonder.... for example, If i want to have a serious talk with my husband about something and I "think" about what I want to communicate and consider the different ways of expressing the sentiment and then decide/choose which words to use... please help me see what's going on here.

Thank you so much, Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:10 am

Hi Sandra,
Even though I can see this, I still wonder.... for example, If i want to have a serious talk with my husband about something and I "think" about what I want to communicate and consider the different ways of expressing the sentiment and then decide/choose which words to use... please help me see what's going on here.
Let’s try this out.

Choose a topic that you want to talk about with your husband or anyone else.
Observer every single step.

What is making the choice what topic to talk about and to whom?

Then make an internal rehearsal what would you say and how would you say it.
Watch like a hawk!

Do you use words to make up the thoughts?
Where do you get those words from? Is there a storage place where you go in and grab the word you need?
Do you use grammar? How do you apply grammar on those words?
And what does the thought look like when it is half formed, before you have finished creating it?
Or is there an infinite number of words somewhere stored hidden from sight, and you go there and pick and choose the words and the grammar structures to create a thought?
Or do you create the words themselves, letter by letter?
Where do you get the letters from?

And when you have the words, how do you decide which words to use?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:13 am

Great, Vivien...I will look at this when I am fresh tomorrow and get back to you.

I really appreciate your time and willingness to help me with this.

Love,
Sandra

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:05 pm

Good Morning, Vivien,
What is making the choice what topic to talk about and to whom?
I don't know! It feels like "I" am thinking about the options of topics to discuss, but when I look, the ideas just arise out of nowhere. I've always associated this arising of ideas to be "me" thinking and creating them. I still experience resistance letting go of this concept, even though my experience shows that the thoughts just appear. But how do they just appear? Where do they come from? So... WHAT is making the choice about that topic to discuss? It just comes through as direct knowledge - there is no thinking, the words just flow and appear out of nowhere. Even as I type this I can see that the words are just coming and fingers are typing and "I" am really not thinking about it - it just happens. I have to resist the desire to want to understand what's happening intellectually and trust my experience.
Do you use words to make up the thoughts?
Where do you get those words from? Is there a storage place where you go in and grab the word you need?
No, thoughts just come in the form of words. I don't pick and choose the words, they just appear. The words that are needed to express the sentiment just appear. It seems like I "choose" the right word out of several that appear to be accurate with what I want to express..it appears that the words are linked to an emotion or sensation and the one that feels most accurate is "chosen" based on that. But who then would be doing the choosing? If there is no one thinking up the words and words are just appearing, then there can't be someone choosing either. So is every expression just exactly as it should be, without someone choosing or deciding? And if that's true, then the concept of making a mistake is also false. How can there be any mistakes if no one is deciding?
Do you use grammar? How do you apply grammar on those words?
Applying grammar happens automatically. The question arises: If someone didn't have an education and learn proper grammar, wouldn't different words appear for them? This may be irrelevant, but if words just appear, why don't the same words appear for everyone? Sorry... this is my analytical mind wanting answers.
And what does the thought look like when it is half formed, before you have finished creating it?
Between the words of half of a completed thought there is emptiness, space. Then more words/thoughts arise within that space.

And when you have the words, how do you decide which words to use?
It seems like words are "decided or chosen" based on an affirming feeling...that the words illicit the feeling after they appear, then a choice is made based on that. This is really hard to distinguish! It's the choosing part that has me hung up. When multiple, conflicting ideas/thoughts/choices arise and can be considered, how then is one decided upon if there is no chooser or thinker?

Looking again, perhaps I'm not deciding but the right words are just ultimately communicated without anyone choosing. I have to admit, I feel resistance around this because it feels like "I" am thinking and choosing! But even as I watch myself write these words, they just come. What is needed to get over the hump here, Vivien?!

When I look, words just come out of nowhere and are expressed. The resistance I feel comes from a belief that I am the thinker and the chooser. Even though I can see how everything spontaneously appears in and disappears into nothing, I am still identified as the doer. Please help!

Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:09 am

Hi Sandra,
I have to admit, I feel resistance around this because it feels like "I" am thinking and choosing!
Please focus on this FEELING that “I am thinking and choosing”.
FEEL this feeling, and describe me this feeling as precisely as you can, but without theories, speculation or analogies.
Even though I can see how everything spontaneously appears in and disappears into nothing, I am still identified as the doer.
“I am still identified as a doer” – Please point with your finger (literally) to the identifier itself.
Where are you pointing at?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:14 am

Please focus on this FEELING that “I am thinking and choosing”.
FEEL this feeling, and describe me this feeling as precisely as you can, but without theories, speculation or analogies.
It's hard to actually come up with or describe a feeling, even though I said it "feels like: I'm thinking or choosing. Maybe it's not a feeling at all. Maybe it just appears or seems like I am thinking or choosing - which could be seen as an illusion. If it appears or seems to be, doesn't mean that it is.

The feeling of thinking is really just the awareness of thoughts arising.

The feeling of choice/choosing is trickier - it's being aware of the different thoughts that have arisen and then putting attention in one direction or another. Like the thought "either I can go for a walk or take a drive", then one is chosen and that choice is executed. It feels like a choice is being made. What does this choosing feel like? The feeling is an impulse to move in a specific direction. But then, who is choosing? I can't find a chooser, but it still appears as if "I" am choosing.

Could if be the feeling is just the awareness of the thought or choice arising. Oh.... and this arising "just appears", just like all other thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds, etc.So, I have been associating the awareness of thoughts arising as a me who is thinking them.
“I am still identified as a doer” – Please point with your finger (literally) to the identifier itself.
Where are you pointing at?
"I" am the identifier, and I point at myself. But I know I am not the body. So there must be an "I" inside the body. When I look, there is noone or nothing there. The I is just a sense, a feeling that there is a me located within the body. What does it feel like? a presence.

I'm sorry, Vivien... I feel like I'm going in circles. Really trying here. I look and it's hard to find words and the me is so illusive that it's hard to actually find but the feeling sense is still there, which is hard to describe other than presence.

Love,
Sandra


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