The Tipping Point

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:08 am

Hi Sandra,
It is an imaginary, conditioned perception that does not exist. It cannot be found in DE. Its a label given to describe the process of the thoughts that constantly arise that I previously thought "I" was responsible for doing.
Yes.
So is it totally clear that there is no ‘mind’ outside of words that speak of one?
That there is no mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come for a ‘mind’?


Let’s dig a bit deeper with thoughts. Seeing thoughts clearly are the key for seeing through the self illusion. So please look very thoroughly with ever questions. There might be repetitions, but that’s the aim. To repeatedly look the same things again and again.

We were talking about unpleasant/negative thoughts. Do you chose them?
Why do you have them if you have control over thoughts?
If thoughts can be thought or created, why not make it so that only pleasant thoughts are thought?
If you had any control over thoughts, why don’t you just stop choosing unhappy or negative thoughts?
If you were the thinker of thoughts, wouldn’t it be the easiest thing to think whatever you like, and not think what you don’t like?


Please set a timer for 5 minutes. The task is to think EXCLUSIVELY pleasant thoughts for the whole duration. Not a single negative thought, and not even a neutral one. But 100% positive. If you are the thinker/creator of thoughts, this should be the easiest thing to do :)

Let me how it goes.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:13 pm

Hi Vivien,
So is it totally clear that there is no ‘mind’ outside of words that speak of one?
That there is no mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come for a ‘mind’?
I cannot find a mind in DE that is responsible for creating thoughts. Thoughts just appear. This is clear. I notice that the belief/thought/story that there is a mind still creeps in, but each time I look I continue to see that no mind exists outside of the words that speak of one.

We were talking about unpleasant/negative thoughts. Do you chose them?
I have absolutely no control over the unpleasant/negative thoughts that appear. I wish they wouldn't appear and they do anyway! They just pop in out of nowhere and "I" am not choosing them. Crystal clear.
Why do you have them if you have control over thoughts?
I have no idea why. Every answer/justification I can come up with is pure speculation and is not seen with DE. I'm seeing thoughts like a runaway train - they're just out of control and doing their own thing. No one at the helm. Perhaps there is a purpose to them, like a subconscious attempt at protecting oneself, but then I ask... who are they really protecting? Just another set of thoughts/beliefs/preferences. So, in DE I see that I have no control over them and have no idea why they arise, they just do.
If thoughts can be thought or created, why not make it so that only pleasant thoughts are thought?
My first inclination is to say it's not human nature to be positive all the time. There is a place for both the positive and the negative in life. Life, at times, is a struggle, painful and challenging - so it seems normal that there would be negative thoughts. So maybe negative thoughts arise under negative circumstances, but no one is actually thinking them or choosing them.
If you had any control over thoughts, why don’t you just stop choosing unhappy or negative thoughts?
I want to stop choosing/thinking negative thoughts and I cannot. They just keep showing up and at times it feels like torture because I'm so sick of hearing them and want to be more positive - but I can't. What I'm seeing is that I cannot choose the negative thoughts that arise, they just appear whether I want them to or not. However, It does "seem like" I have the choice whether to follow those thoughts - It's "as if" I become aware of the thought and then choose to drop it and not engage in them. BUT - I catch myself as I say this and see that thoughts come AND GO without my doing. So how could I be choosing not to follow the thoughts if I'm not the chooser of anything at all?! I can't be. So, it leave me wondering what's happening here. Am I choosing to drop negative thoughts when they are experienced? NO. If I rely purely on DE, It is just seen that thoughts come and go and it's not predictable how long thought streams last or when they end and fall away, only to be replaced by another. I look for the "I" that could be "choosing" to drop the negative thought - and as usual, no I can be found. Thoughts are just arising and disappearing back to where they came from more quickly.
If you were the thinker of thoughts, wouldn’t it be the easiest thing to think whatever you like, and not think what you don’t like?
I would certainly think so! But this is not the case. So when people talk about "the power of positive thinking" and "change your thoughts, change your life" - there is no validity to that??!! In DE, I see that it is not easy nor possible to control or choose the thoughts that appear.
Please set a timer for 5 minutes. The task is to think EXCLUSIVELY pleasant thoughts for the whole duration. Not a single negative thought, and not even a neutral one. But 100% positive. If you are the thinker/creator of thoughts, this should be the easiest thing to do :)
I set the timer for 5 minutes and was sincerely able to think 100% positive thoughts the whole time - thoughts about everything I am grateful for and the people, places and things I love and have experienced. I'm sure at some point I would have run out, but ideas/concepts of positivity just kept popping in. I don't know how that happened, just like I don't know how negative thoughts just pop in. The concepts I label as positive were readily available and it was much more uplifting to experience than the negative ones.

I look forward to continuing, Vivien. I want this more than anything and am 100% committed.
Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:02 am

Hi Sandra,
I want this more than anything and am 100% committed.
Excellent! Your commitment will help you along the way :)
I have absolutely no control over the unpleasant/negative thoughts that appear. I wish they wouldn't appear and they do anyway!
And do you make the thought “I wish they wouldn’t appear” to appear? The appearance of this thought is your doing? If yes, how do you instigate this thought?
I want to stop choosing/thinking negative thoughts and I cannot. They just keep showing up and at times it feels like torture because I'm so sick of hearing them and want to be more positive - but I can't.
Do you choose the thought “I want to stop choosing/thinking negative thoughts”, or this thought also just appeared on its own?
I'm so sick of hearing them and want to be more positive
Who is it that is so sick of hearing them? Who hears the thoughts? Sandra, the character?
Or is the thought “I am so sick of hearing negative thoughts” is part of the story about the character Sandra?
If I rely purely on DE, It is just seen that thoughts come and go and it's not predictable how long thought streams last or when they end and fall away, only to be replaced by another. I look for the "I" that could be "choosing" to drop the negative thought - and as usual, no I can be found. Thoughts are just arising and disappearing back to where they came from more quickly.
Yes, nice observation.
So when people talk about "the power of positive thinking" and "change your thoughts, change your life" - there is no validity to that??!! In DE, I see that it is not easy nor possible to control or choose the thoughts that appear.
Exactly! There has to be real self, a real entity, in order to be able to think positive thoughts. There has to be a self, an agency, which has power over thoughts, and it can think anything it wants. So ‘the power of positive thinking’ is a based on the belief that there is a self/I, which thinks and is in control.
I set the timer for 5 minutes and was sincerely able to think 100% positive thoughts the whole time - thoughts about everything I am grateful for and the people, places and things I love and have experienced.
I would like to ask you to repeat the exercise again. And this time pay particular attention to HOW you control to have only positive thoughts.

How do instigate positive thoughts to appear?
How do you keep away negative thoughts, exactly?
And how do you keep away the neutral thoughts?
How do you control to have only positive thoughts?
What do you do (literally what do you do) to have only positive thoughts?
How do you make it happen that only positive thoughts appear during the 5 minutes?
And how do you select the positive thoughts you would like to think?
Is there a storage place for thoughts somewhere hidden, and you go there and pick and choose only the positive thoughts and then you intentionally think those?


Please reply to the above questions one-by-one.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:03 pm

Hi Vivien,
And do you make the thought “I wish they wouldn’t appear” to appear? The appearance of this thought is your doing? If yes, how do you instigate this thought?
This thought is the same as any other. It just appears. It is a thought about a thought.
Do you choose the thought “I want to stop choosing/thinking negative thoughts”, or this thought also just appeared on its own?
Just as I don't make the thoughts, I don't choose what kind if thoughts appear. Thoughts come and go on their own and the content is not of "my" doing. Regardless of what the thought is about, it comes without any choice.
Who is it that is so sick of hearing them? Who hears the thoughts? Sandra, the character?
Or is the thought “I am so sick of hearing negative thoughts” is part of the story about the character Sandra?
"I'm so sick of hearing them" is just another thought coupled with an emotion/feeling/sensation. The character Sandra can not be sick of hearing those thoughts because she is a compilation of thoughts herself. Thoughts can not think. in DE, it looks like the negative thought gives rise to an unpleasant sensation/emotion and then it is assumed that an "I" feels this way or that way. When I ask if there is someone who is experiencing these thoughts and feelings, I can not find anyone or anything. There is nothing but the experience of sensations in the body.
I would like to ask you to repeat the exercise again. And this time pay particular attention to HOW you control to have only positive thoughts.
How do instigate positive thoughts to appear?
Intention, focus and concentration/effort and the words that describe "what seems to be" happening. If we can't choose thoughts, then how is it that it "seems like" I actually can choose positive thoughts for 5 minutes straight? Something different is happening here than just sitting and noticing how random thoughts come and go. Now, relying on DE - what is seen is that positive thoughts jump one to another without knowing which one will appear next - just like when I'm not trying to have them. "I" don't actually choose the next positive thought, it just pops in just like all other thoughts. It "feels like" the mind is searching for the next positive memory or preference to recall and name, but then upon further examination in DE I can't find a mind nor can I actually know any mind process that appears to be happening. I can not explain how it is possible to have 5 minutes of positive thoughts if I am not instigating them, but when I look I see that somehow they just appear.
How do you keep away negative thoughts, exactly?
Well, the first words that come are by focusing solely on the positive. But I have just determined that in DE I don't choose the thoughts, they just appear. It still feels like attention is being put on the positive somehow, but I can't explain what it is or how.
And how do you keep away the neutral thoughts?
In DE, I am not doing it. Somehow, positive thoughts only are appearing but I can not identify how this happens or why.
How do you control to have only positive thoughts?
OK - I'm just going to free form talk this through here... You ask me to think only positive thoughts for 5 minutes straight. somehow "I" intend to do that and it "seems like" my mind focuses on searching for positive memories and preferences to name. However, this does not align with all the previous looking I have done and does not resonate as true. So I look again... and first determine that I can not find a "me", so there cannot be anyone in control. All that is here is thoughts, emotions and sensations and they cannot control anything. The positive thoughts arise one after the other but I have no idea how they are determined or why. They just appear. But because they are vaild/true, it "seems like" "I" must have chosen them. If I rely solely on DE, what is seen is that positive thoughts come one after the other and there is no way of knowing what is coming next, it just comes.
What do you do (literally what do you do) to have only positive thoughts?
How do "I think" only positive thoughts? To be honest, when I look at what I do, it "seems like" I concentrate and focus attention on finding the positive thoughts. When I look closer, I can see there is no I and that thoughts just come, which means I don't do anything. Is there an "I" that controls thoughts? The I itself is a thought, and thoughts do no think or control anything. But how is it that when you ask me to focus on only positive thoughts it is possible to have only them? This is confusing!
How do you make it happen that only positive thoughts appear during the 5 minutes?
I really have no idea. It just happens! I can't identify what the mechanism is or how that happens. It just does.
And how do you select the positive thoughts you would like to think?
There is no moment in time I can identify selection taking place. It is instantaneous. There aren't choices to select from, thoughts just appear, one after the other and there is no selection process. One after the other after the other the thoughts just pop in, jumping to the next one without any actual choice happening. I don't know how this is possible, but it what I see.
Is there a storage place for thoughts somewhere hidden, and you go there and pick and choose only the positive thoughts and then you intentionally think those?
Definitely not. It's clear thoughts appear randomly out of nowhere and there is no picking and choosing and no way to know what's coming next.

Thanks, Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:30 pm

Hi Sandra,
It still feels like attention is being put on the positive somehow, but I can't explain what it is or how.it "seems like" I concentrate and focus attention on finding the positive thoughts.
Let’s take a look at the idea of focusing attention.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?


Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:25 pm

Hi Vivien,
Focus on focusing, attention itself. Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?
I cannot find anything that moves attention. But it's perplexing because you ask me to focus attention and there is something that does that. In DE, it is undeniable that attention can be placed on whatever is suggested and held there momentarily (albeit not indefinitely). As I sit here, attention can focus on and move from the dog snoring to the sound of the furnace to the cars outside. So the question comes, am "I" actually choosing which sounds to focus attention on, or does attention just move from sound to sound on its own. A sound is picked up on and then attention goes there. A sensation in the body is felt and attention goes there. Toast cooking in the other room is smelled and attention goes there. What I'm seeing now is attention automatically goes to and follows what is picked up by the sense organs, without anyone deciding on it or doing it. I have been assuming that attention is "me", and when attention latches on to something that "I" am"paying attention" to it. But now I can see that attention just jumps around to different stimuli. Now... looking again at focus. When you ask me to focus on something, there is a prolonged "looking", more than what would normally happen without the intention to focus. But even with the intention to focus, attention eventually "looses interest" and moves on to something else. There is something different initially when asked to focus, but focus can only be "held" for so long. But how is attention held? I can't find a focuser, only focusing.
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?
You ask me to focus on my breath - there is something that can follow your direction and put attention there and keep it longer than if I did not follow your request. SOMETHING is able to do that - maybe it's not a "me", but just the mere fact that I can do as you ask me to do means that attention can be directed, doesn't it? How is it possible for "me" to perform this exercise?
However, I can clearly see that attention has a mind of its own, as described above. Eventually attention jumps around from sounds to thoughts to sensations to smells and there is no one deciding in advance where it will land. It's like whatever it finds more interesting it will jump to next. "I" am not directing attention. Like just now - attention briefly went to the sound of the thermostat making a clicking sound and then the furnace kicking on - "I" didn't choose to pay attention to it, it just happened. Then there was the recognition of what those sounds referred to (labeling). It's really clear to me that attention is random and not intentionally directed at anything (unless you ask me to focus on something specific, in which case it can me done, but not maintained).

Thanks, Vivien.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:06 am

Hi Sandra,
You ask me to focus on my breath - there is something that can follow your direction and put attention there and keep it longer than if I did not follow your request. SOMETHING is able to do that - maybe it's not a "me", but just the mere fact that I can do as you ask me to do means that attention can be directed, doesn't it? How is it possible for "me" to perform this exercise?
Does a focuser (or something as doer) is needed in order to focus happen?

How do you know that there is something that is following direction and putting attention there? Just because you assume so?

Can you observer this something in the very moment when direction is followed?

Does this something actually exist, or it’s just assumed?


Does wind need a blower to wind?
Does rain need a rainer to rain?
Or all of these happen on their own?

Does attention need a focuser or doer? Or following direction just happens on its own without anyone or anything doing it?
How is it possible for "me" to perform this exercise?
Who performs this exercise?
Where is the performer?
Is there anything performing the exercise?
However, I can clearly see that attention has a mind of its own, as described above.
You are talking as if attention would be a some kind of agency with has its own mind.

But is attention an agency which has its own mind?

And what mind?
Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?

And is there another mind which imagined to belong to this agency called attention?

Is there any mind at all?


I’ve given you lots of questions, so please be thorough with them.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:27 am

Does a focuser (or something as doer) is needed in order to focus happen?
There does not have to be a focuser or a doer, because neither of them can be found. In DE only directing attention and focusing can be found. Attention jumps from thoughts to hearing the sound of the dog breathing. Nothing made that happen, it just happened without thinking about it or trying. Attention jumps to sensations in the body without doing it, it just happens. Focusing is no different - attention lingers longer but focuser cannot be found. There is just the act of focusing.
How do you know that there is something that is following direction and putting attention there? Just because you assume so?
It's the only thing that makes sense based on old assumed beliefs, I guess. You ask me to do something and then there is something that is able to follow your direction. If there is nothing here, no one here, no doer or focuser then how does it happen? Maybe it's not necessary to understand or comprehend. If I just take it at face value according to DE, I do not find a focuser and see only focusing.

Can you observe this something in the very moment when direction is followed?
No. I read your instruction and then focusing just happens. A something, someone, focuser or doer can not be found or observed.
Does this something actually exist, or it’s just assumed?
It is the perspective I have always taken as far back as I can remember. I don't recall ever making the assumption or deciding I would see myself as the focuser or doer, but clearly I have. However, now by looking I can see that this "something" doesn't exist. Everything is just happening on it's own without something doing it.
Does wind need a blower to wind?
Does rain need a rainer to rain?
Or all of these happen on their own?
They all just happen on their own when the right conditions are present. But there is not a blower of wind or rainer of rain. Nature unfolds moment to moment based on whatever the conditions are and natural law. There is not a someone or something doing it - it all just happens.
Does attention need a focuser or doer? Or following direction just happens on its own without anyone or anything doing it?
Just as wind blows without a blower and rain rains without a rainer, focus happens without a focuser and following happens without a follower. The belief about being the focuser or doer is very sticky - it wants to keep asserting itself and maintain the old assumption - like there's someone here who wants to take credit for doing everything and doesn't like this belief being challenged. I don't mean this literally but these are the only words I can come up with to try to describe the resistance of fully letting go to what is undisputably seen.
S: However, I can clearly see that attention has a mind of its own, as described above.
V: You are talking as if attention would be a some kind of agency with has its own mind.
But is attention an agency which has its own mind?
I'm sorry. I didn't mean this literally. It's just an expression I used to describe the uncontrollable nature of attention. I will be more selective with my words going forward.
And what mind?
Something that has been assumed responsible for thoughts, emotions, actions, etc.
Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
In DE, a mind cannot be found.
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?
There is not a mind independent of thoughts - only thoughts are experienced, mind is not experienced.
And is there another mind which imagined to belong to this agency called attention?
No there is not.
Is there any mind at all?
Looking, I cannot find a mind. All I see is that which is happening - thinking, focusing hearing, etc - All of these experiences are known but there is not a mind that can be found that is responsible for them. Everything is just somehow happening.

Thanks, Vivien!
Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:33 am

Hi Sandra,
Looking, I cannot find a mind. All I see is that which is happening - thinking, focusing hearing, etc - All of these experiences are known but there is not a mind that can be found that is responsible for them. Everything is just somehow happening.
Yes, nice looking.
It's the only thing that makes sense based on old assumed beliefs, I guess. You ask me to do something and then there is something that is able to follow your direction. If there is nothing here, no one here, no doer or focuser then how does it happen?
Is this an IF? That IF no one is there?
Or is it clearly seen that there is no one there focusing attention?
Maybe it's not necessary to understand or comprehend.
Comprehending is intellectual. Which is thinking, which is in opposite direction as seeing something in experience (reality).
If I just take it at face value according to DE, I do not find a focuser and see only focusing.
Haven’t you taken the thoughts about being a focuser as face value?
You have been believing something in your whole life without actually checking the validity of those thoughts in reality (experience).
try to describe the resistance of fully letting go to what is undisputably seen.
Let’s investigate this resistance.

What would happen if it turned out that indeed there is, and has never been such thing as a focuser?
Is there a fear?



What other proofs do you need than seeing what is there and what is not in reality?
The belief about being the focuser or doer is very sticky - it wants to keep asserting itself and maintain the old assumption - like there's someone here who wants to take credit for doing everything and doesn't like this belief being challenged. I don't mean this literally but these are the only words I can come up with to try to describe the resistance of fully letting go to what is undisputably seen.
Than you have to look at this more and SEE it in experience that the focuser is just inferred, and it’s not there in reality.

So please repeat the attention focusing exercise many times, until there is no doubt is felt, whether there is a focuser or not. Please let me know how it goes.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:58 am

Hi Vivien,
Is this an IF? That IF no one is there?
Or is it clearly seen that there is no one there focusing attention?
When I look I can clearly see that that no one can be found, no focuser, and everything just happens.
What would happen if it turned out that indeed there is, and has never been such thing as a focuser?
Is there a fear?
I do not experience fear at all. Just confusion, as everything I ever perceived as being real is turning out to be not real. So it's hard to embrace that what I'm seeing is real and what I have thought and felt is not real. I just need to keep looking and looking until that reality overrides the old way of seeing things.

What other proofs do you need than seeing what is there and what is not in reality?
Good question! I can't imagine there is any other proof that is needed. Just repetition. I have seen time and time again through looking and DE that there is no thinker.Thoughts come and go unpredictably and there is no way of controlling them - they just come and go and the content isn't chosen. This is clear. It's the feeling or sense that something (not somebody) is here that clouds the picture. This awakeness, awareness, aliveness - the feeling that "I" exist, "I" am here. I cannot find the "I" that is here, but in DE, there is this indisputable experience of awareness and aliveness. Perhaps I have been labeling this as "me", when in fact it's just an impersonal awareness. Or maybe there is another word that I should be using instead of awareness? What is the word for what is here?
So please repeat the attention focusing exercise many times, until there is no doubt is felt, whether there is a focuser or not. Please let me know how it goes.
I am going to spend the day with this tomorrow and get back to you. I want to devote more time to it.

Thank you,
Sandra

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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:25 am

Hi Sandra,

I will comment when you replied to the last question.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:23 am

Continued from yesterday's responses:
So please repeat the attention focusing exercise many times, until there is no doubt is felt, whether there is a focuser or not. Please let me know how it goes.
Here is what I find: There is no doubt that focusing happens, but I can not find a focuser. There is the experience of focusing, but I have no explanation how it happens, it just does. This is the same as thinking, hearing, walking, drinking, typing, looking, driving, etc. Everything just happens.

Thank you so much for your ongoing guidance and support, Vivien.

Love,
Sandra

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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:23 am

Hi Sandra,
I do not experience fear at all. Just confusion, as everything I ever perceived as being real is turning out to be not real. So it's hard to embrace that what I'm seeing is real and what I have thought and felt is not real. I just need to keep looking and looking until that reality overrides the old way of seeing things.
If it needs embracement, then it’s not fully seen. So just look again and again, relentlessly, until it becomes an experiential conviction.
This awakeness, awareness, aliveness - the feeling that "I" exist, "I" am here. I cannot find the "I" that is here, but in DE, there is this indisputable experience of awareness and aliveness.
Yes, there is something here, what can be labelled as aliveness, beingness, experience, life, what IS, existence, etc.

But just because there is experience / aliveness/ life / existence, does this mean that it is the ‘I’?
What make experience /aliveness / beingness / existence into a ME?
Perhaps I have been labeling this as "me", when in fact it's just an impersonal awareness.
Is there an impersonal awareness outside of experience, looking in and being aware of what is happening in experience?
Or maybe there is another word that I should be using instead of awareness? What is the word for what is here?
I personally don’t like the word ‘awareness’, since this concept is so heavily loaded with spiritual ideas.
And thus brings a belief into the picture of an independent awareness being and waiting in the background for things to appear and to be aware of.

But is this so? Is there an independent awareness in the background waiting things to appear and to be aware of?
Thank you so much for your ongoing guidance and support, Vivien.
You are most welcome :)

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:44 pm

Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:40 am

Hi Vivien,
But just because there is experience / aliveness/ life / existence, does this mean that it is the ‘I’?
What make experience /aliveness / beingness / existence into a ME?
No! definitely not. Experience/aliveness/life/existence does not indicate an "I". In DE, it is seen over and over that there is no "I" driving the ship, yet the aliveness is in fact here. The only thing that would make it into a "me" would be the assumption/thought/conditioning that that is what it is. But by looking, we see that aliveness/beingness is here even when a me cannot be found. Crystal clear.
Is there an impersonal awareness outside of experience, looking in and being aware of what is happening in experience?
No. That would just be a different kind of "me". I was using the word impersonal to indicate an awareness without a me.
I personally don’t like the word ‘awareness’, since this concept is so heavily loaded with spiritual ideas.
And thus brings a belief into the picture of an independent awareness being and waiting in the background for things to appear and to be aware of.
But is this so? Is there an independent awareness in the background waiting things to appear and to be aware of?
No. This would again personalize awareness as a me of some kind. When I do the looking , a me or a doer cannot be found, yet this liveliness remains.
S; I do not experience fear at all. Just confusion, as everything I ever perceived as being real is turning out to be not real. So it's hard to embrace that what I'm seeing is real and what I have thought and felt is not real. I just need to keep looking and looking until that reality overrides the old way of seeing things.
V: If it needs embracement, then it’s not fully seen. So just look again and again, relentlessly, until it becomes an experiential conviction.
Yes, I see what you mean about embracement. Just since yesterday I feel a difference and embracing doesn't even seem necessary or valid anymore. It feels more like a joyful exploration and unfoldment. I don't know exactly what changed in a just day. There's an ease and openness to what is seen that wasn't there before. Always hard to find the right words, but the resistance to what is seen is somehow gone.

Love,
Sandra

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Vivien
Posts: 4680
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:32 am

Hi Sandra,
Yes, I see what you mean about embracement. Just since yesterday I feel a difference and embracing doesn't even seem necessary or valid anymore. It feels more like a joyful exploration and unfoldment. I don't know exactly what changed in a just day. There's an ease and openness to what is seen that wasn't there before. Always hard to find the right words, but the resistance to what is seen is somehow gone.
Wonderful :)

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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