The Tipping Point

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SKD108
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The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:46 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is no personal Self. That the me or the I I am identified with is an illusion, nothing more than a belief or thought. When I practice self-inquiry I can not find a me, yet I remain identified as a separate self. I yearn for awakening.

What are you looking for at LU?

Where is this me hiding? Why won't it let go? What is it going to take to fully see beyond the veil of illusion. It's as if I can intuitively sense that there is no me, but the shift never happens. The spiritual impulse and longing to Awaken is relentless and I need assistance getting over the tipping point. I feel a powerful sense of urgency to make progress. The time is now and I would be deeply grateful to any assistance in coming to know my true nature.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would appreciate a very direct and honest interaction that can meet my sense of urgency and longing with whatever is needed to awaken. I have the time to dedicate and give this process my full attention and will be fully engaged in the process.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Daily Meditation - 8 years
Self-inquiry - 1 year
Spiritual seeker - 17 years
Contemplation

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:29 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post at least once a day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?


Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for?
What do you want to happen?
What is incomplete right now?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:51 am

Dear Vivien,

Thank you for your reply.
Yes, we can agree to those things.

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What I am really looking for is to know Truth. I want to know what is real for myself and not just depend on blind faith on what I read in a book or what someone tells me. I want to know my true nature and satisfy this relentless longing so I can be at peace. I want to be free. My life won't change by knowing what's true, but my experience of it will by seeing through the illusions of the mind.

What are you hoping for?
I am hoping to know the truth of what I really am (or am not). A lot of the old "me" has changed or fallen away (preferences, beliefs, desires), but I am still identified as a separate me. In releasing this identification, I am hoping for a greater sense of ease and alignment with life.

What do you want to happen?
I want to wake up and know what is real.

What is incomplete right now?
This relentless longing leaves me always wanting something that never comes. At times I can feel frustrated, empty, dissatisfied, alone. I try to let it go, but it won't let me go. After years of meditation, countless books, retreats, practitioners, etc. and day after day it doesn't happen, that feels incomplete.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:18 am

Hi,

How would you like me to call you? What name would you prefer?

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video again how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I want to know what is real for myself and not just depend on blind faith on what I read in a book or what someone tells me.
Great. This is exactly what we are going to do :)
I want to know my true nature and satisfy this relentless longing so I can be at peace
What if there is no such thing as ‘my true nature’? What if this is just a popular spiritual concept only?

Seeing through the illusion of the self is never how one imagines it to be. It cannot be known in advance how it will be.
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.
After years of meditation, countless books, retreats, practitioners, etc.
For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?
but I am still identified as a separate me.
All right, let’s start looking :)

I would like to ask you to point with your finger (literally) to the separate me.
Where do you point to?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:47 am

Hi Vivien,
How would you like me to call you? What name would you prefer?
Please call me Sandra.
Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
Seeing through the illusion of the self is never how one imagines it to be. It cannot be known in advance how it will be.
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.
I coincidentally had this insight today - that I have been obstructing my own realization by preconceived notions about what to expect or what the awakening experience will be like. I know that the mind can not know this, and I am ready to let go of the ideas I have held around this. This is a habit that needs to be broken.
For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?
Yes, I agree
I would like to ask you to point with your finger (literally) to the separate me.
Where do you point to?
Starting from a clean slate:
I point the finger directly toward my body, at "me".
I dont want to make assumptions and jump ahead, so I will wait for your further direction.

Thank you.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:56 am

Hi,
I coincidentally had this insight today - that I have been obstructing my own realization by preconceived notions about what to expect or what the awakening experience will be like. I know that the mind can not know this, and I am ready to let go of the ideas I have held around this.
It’s very good that you realized this. But still, watch out for expectations and comparisons. Habits die hard :)
Starting from a clean slate:
I point the finger directly toward my body, at "me".
Is the body = me?
or
I have a body. It’s mine. MY body.

Which one?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:01 am

Is the body = me?
or
I have a body. It’s mine. MY body.

Which one?

I have a body. It’s mine. MY body.

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:05 am

When I say I have a body, it's mine...I can not point a finger at that "me".
The me exists as a sense of "I", but it can not be found.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:08 am

Hi,
When I say I have a body, it's mine...I can not point a finger at that "me".
The me exists as a sense of "I", but it can not be found.
Please observe the "sense of I" for a while. What kind of sense is it?
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:16 am

Please observe the "sense of I" for a while. What kind of sense is it?
It feels like it gives me a sense of location.

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Vivien
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:35 am

It feels like it gives me a sense of location.
Be careful with thoughts of “it feels LIKE”. It’s just a thought analogy, it’s not actual feeling.

“it gives ME” – WHERE is this ME (where is its physical location) which gets a sense of location from the sense of self?

Don’t just think about the answer, but really LOOK.

It’s important that you don’t just write what thought-answers arrives, but you actually look for, search for a me.

Find this ME! Search through the whole body from head to toe.

Don't rush.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
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Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:44 pm

Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:43 pm

Hi Vivien,
“it gives ME” – WHERE is this ME (where is its physical location) which gets a sense of location from the sense of self?
Find this ME! Search through the whole body from head to toe.
There is no physical location of the Me. When I look I do not find a me anywhere. There is just emptiness, space, awareness. Thoughts and emotions arise within this awareness and fall away from this space.

There is still a sense that I am here, that I exist, but is that just awareness- awareness of being in this body, in this place at this time?

Thank you.

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SKD108
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Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:04 pm

Hi Vivien,

I have been continuing to look. I read in the LU book to find what the fear is that keeps the false me in tact.
I did not think I had a fea, as when I think about letting the Me go I feel relieved and wish for it to happen.

Unexpectedly, when I asked about the fear, I got that I am afraid to let Sandra go because I really like her. She is a good person, a good mother, works hard, takes care of others, she's smart and capable and likable. (I can see these are all labels).

Then what came even more unexpectedly was - I've tried so hard to take good care of her and protect her and keep her safe - how can I let her go?

Then deep crying came, what felt like grieving, and tears streamed down my face. As I write this, more tears come.

I can see where I have been unknowingly attached to "who I am", who I've been, what I've accomplished and the roles I play.

I know it's time to let all that go.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: The Tipping Point

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:13 am

Hi Sandra,
Unexpectedly, when I asked about the fear, I got that I am afraid to let Sandra go because I really like her. She is a good person, a good mother, works hard, takes care of others, she's smart and capable and likable. (I can see these are all labels).
Then what came even more unexpectedly was - I've tried so hard to take good care of her and protect her and keep her safe - how can I let her go?
Then deep crying came, what felt like grieving, and tears streamed down my face. As I write this, more tears come.
I can see where I have been unknowingly attached to "who I am", who I've been, what I've accomplished and the roles I play.
I know it's time to let all that go.
Thank you for sharing this with me. Fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self. And the fear tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences.

And the story is what you wrote above. That you have to let go of Sandra. As if Sandra were leaving forever and you were never going to see her again. So it’s almost as if she was going to die by this process.

But this is just a story and it’s not how it will be.
You don’t have to let go of Sandra.
Because you = Sandra.
Sandra won’t leave, and won’t die either.
Nothing will happen to her. She just will be RECOGNIZED for what it is, just an illusion, just a fictional character.
So you don’t have to let go of Sandra. She won’t go anywhere.

Please look, who/what would let go of Sandra?

Is there another you/self who would let go of the other self, Sandra?

Where is this another self who tried to take good care of Sandra?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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SKD108
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:44 pm

Re: The Tipping Point

Postby SKD108 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:54 am

But this is just a story and it’s not how it will be.
You don’t have to let go of Sandra.
Because you = Sandra.
Sandra won’t leave, and won’t die either.
Nothing will happen to her. She just will be RECOGNIZED for what it is, just an illusion, just a fictional character.
So you don’t have to let go of Sandra. She won’t go anywhere.
I'm honestly not conscious of any worry or concern of this. It' just what unexpectedly came up when I asked, so I figured it was relevant and important to bring up. Particularly because it evoked crying.

Please look, who/what would let go of Sandra?
There isn't anyone that would let go of Sandra.
Would you call this false self (Sandra) "ego"?
Is there another you/self who would let go of the other self, Sandra?
What is it that sees/recognizes the false self? Whatever that is, wouldn't it let go of the concept of Sandra once it is seen through?

Where is this another self who tried to take good care of Sandra
There isn't one.
It appears as though Sandra tried to take good care of Sandra. The Me that has always been identified as Sandra made choices that were in Sandra's best interest. However, if Sandra is a false self, she wasn't making any choices.
This is beginning to feel a little crazy making for the mind!

Now I am back to where I was last night:
There is no physical location of the Me. When I look I do not find a me anywhere. There is just emptiness, space, awareness. Thoughts and emotions arise within this awareness and fall away from this space.
There is still a sense that I am here, that I exist, but is that just awareness- awareness of being in this body, in this place at this time?

Thanks for trying to help me see through this.


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