friday night!

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Vivien
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Re: friday night!

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:52 pm

Hi nass,

All right. So thoughts are almost constantly talking on behalf of ‘me’.

So WHERE is this me thoughts are referring TO?
Where is the physical location of this me?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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nass
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Re: friday night!

Postby nass » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:11 am

Hi Vivien,
So WHERE is this me thoughts are referring TO?
Where is the physical location of this me?
It's nowhere, thoughts point to imaginary location. Hm, but I can't find any location that wouldn't be imaginary. Let's say that objects are real... then the thoughts refer to the body as a whole. "I've hurt my knee." "When I was young."

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Vivien
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Re: friday night!

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:18 am

Hi nass,
then the thoughts refer to the body as a whole. "I've hurt my knee." "When I was young."
Yes, but thoughts also say: MY body, MY hurt, MY knee, MY pain, MY leg, MY memory of being young.

So where is the ONE that owns the body? The one that the word ‘my’ refer to?

Please look again very carefully. Always look with every questions I give you, and never rely on the memory of a previous looking. It’s very easy to skip looking with every single questions. It happens to almost everybody.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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nass
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Re: friday night!

Postby nass » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:48 am

Hi Vivien,

I didn't do much looking for the previous reply, nor for this one - if only I knew how not to rely on memory! :)
After not being able to find "me" in a particular place, I - my thoughts - find solace in referring to the whole body, and saying MY body and MY leg doesn't change anything. I know the point is to look, and that this mental operation should be a dead end, and it may sound stupid, but I honestly see: this is what my thoughts refer to now. They say: this body owns this body, owns this knee, owns my memories. I'm very tired, maybe I'm overlooking something very easy to see that would show me how I'm not this body (and I used to be sure about that, dear memory), but right now...

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Vivien
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Re: friday night!

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:50 am

Hi nass,
I didn't do much looking for the previous reply, nor for this one - if only I knew how not to rely on memory! :)
With looking, you ALWAYS have to look afresh and never rely on memory of previous looking. Why? Because if you rely on the memory of a previous looking in a form of a thought: “I know there is no self” without actually looking afresh for a self, then in that moment the no-self is just a belief. So every time it seems like or feels like as if there were a self, but you just remind yourself with the thought “there is no self”, then you just covering up one belief (the seemingly perceived self) with another belief (there is no self).

It’s the looking and looking and looking and more looking that brings about the realization.

So every time I ask a question, you always have to look afresh, to see it again and again what is being pointed it. Can we agree on this?

After not being able to find "me" in a particular place, I - my thoughts - find solace in referring to the whole body, and saying MY body and MY leg doesn't change anything.
You see, this is the result of not looking further.
this is what my thoughts refer to now. They say: this body owns this body, owns this knee, owns my memories.
But just because thoughts refer to the body as a ‘me/I’ does this referring making the body into an actual self?

Can you see that you are taking thoughts for granted without investigating if they in line with reality (experience) at all?

Is it clear that this whole looking is about comparing thoughts (imagination) with reality (experience)?

I'm very tired, maybe I'm overlooking something very easy to see that would show me how I'm not this body
Yes, you are overlooking something.
Do you actually expect to find a real ‘I’? Do you expect that by this investigation you will find out what “I really am”?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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nass
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Re: friday night!

Postby nass » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:26 pm

Hi Vivien,

the problem isn't that I'm not willing to look, it's that I can't answer your question when it doesn't make sense to me.
I can agree that it might be the result of not looking further (and what isn't, on this forum), but that's simply where I'm at. Since this illusion is not acceptable, not far enough (maybe I've even taken a few steps back), I'm ok with doing more looking by myself and will get back to you when my perception changes back to the good-enough illusion of me located somewhere in the body, from which you can guide me further.

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Vivien
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Re: friday night!

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:00 am

Hi nass,
Since this illusion is not acceptable, not far enough (maybe I've even taken a few steps back), I'm ok with doing more looking by myself and will get back to you when my perception changes back to the good-enough illusion of me located somewhere in the body, from which you can guide me further.
What do you mean that ‘since this illusion is not acceptable’?

Dear nass, you might not see it, but you have a resistance to look. You dismissed my previous questions completely (which is not about being located in the body) saying that it’s not about that you are not willing to look.

But my questions were about something completely different.
But you didn’t care to look, let alone to answer them.

This is your inquiry.
Only you can do this.
But with dismissing the questions you cannot get anywhere.

But maybe you don’t want to get anywhere…..???

I can help you only, if you are willing to look at EACH questions I give you, and never dismiss any.
Otherwise we are wasting each other’s time.

So please come back to me when you feel 100% committed to do the inquiry.
When you feel that you are ready to look at each questions I give you, regardless whether you judge them useful or not.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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nass
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Re: friday night!

Postby nass » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:30 am

The "I" still points to the whole body, and to the thoughts around. It is a hollow concept, useful in communication, and empty. The thoughts keep referring to the "I", as if it was a real center, but they don't support each other with such certainty as before, it's like they are describing the emperor's new clothes. There's often a feeling of relaxation around the eyes, like they are wide open.

That's what's happening in these days. Maybe if you actually tried to understand what I was saying, before going into your imagination about how I'm unwilling to look, the process would have been faster, but it's fine as it is. Don't bother wasting your time, I'll contact you if something's unclear.

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Vivien
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Re: friday night!

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:55 am

Hi nass,
That's what's happening in these days. Maybe if you actually tried to understand what I was saying, before going into your imagination about how I'm unwilling to look, the process would have been faster, but it's fine as it is. Don't bother wasting your time, I'll contact you if something's unclear.
If you are so unhappy with both of your guides (Stacy and me) then why do you bother to write at all?

This inquiry is not mandatory. You don’t have to do it if you don’t want to.

My questions are neutral. There is nothing personal in them.
However, you are taking them personally, get offended and react defensively.

What you are missing here, is that we are volunteers. We are helping here in our spare times, freely.
It’s all right if you don’t agree with our comments. No problem. You can abort this conversation at any point.
But this kind of resentful response is not what we are here for.

We are not objects that you can use when you can get something useful out for yourself, and then threw us away when we don’t meet your expectations.

If you have such negative feelings and thoughts toward us, then it will hinder you and prevents honest looking.

So think about what you really want. Do you want to see through the illusion? Or do you want to hold onto your grudges and negative feelings?

It’s up to you. But if you want to continue with LU, you have to manage your emotions and reactions and be respectful.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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nass
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Re: friday night!

Postby nass » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:47 pm

There's no point in arguing. I was grateful when your guiding was helpful and resentful when you started to talk about what I was doing, taking your imagination for the truth - and you're doing it again, like in "you're missing that we're volunteers". I imagine you mean well and that it works more often than not, but it doesn't work here. I see projections and conditional acceptance, take it or leave it. You don't have to take it personally either, but feel free to; and I'm not expecting you to guide me if you don't want to.

I think describing what's happening can be helpful to others going through similar process, and I was serious when I said you don't have to waste your time by replying. Not that I enjoyed reading it, but thank you for your reply.

It's nice to see that the reactions go on even when there's noone reacting. Not that there ever was. This knowing is spreading like a friendly cancer through all thoughts.

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nass
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Re: friday night!

Postby nass » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:08 pm

There was about a month long break in the inquiry, followed by another dive in, doing a lot of exercises from other threads and so on. I'd say it's clearly established that there is not and never was an ego, but still this understanding doesn't pervade everything, it's like there are areas where things are as they used to be, thought clusters that are holding on together around an "I"... Now I'm (pardon my french) thinking that what is seen while looking (such as no boundaries) is not seen often enough, that I rely too much on what was seen several times as on the memory, instead of seeing it again, and again, and again. On the other hand, there was so much insight into things like now vs time, here and there, what thoughts are, how they relate to the body...

There weren't any more of those strange states, where everything leaps into an intense no-I-feeling and then gradually returns back. Often it's about just a dialogue of thoughts, where one says "I think that..." and another says "Oh really? YOU think?" And even re-reading these two paragraphs here, there are thoughts "there's nothing true about this anyway, it's just conditioning of the mind" / "the mind only exists in the mind, therefore it doesn't". And all this is infused by a feeling that it's perfect - because it can't be otherwise. Yum.

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nass
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Re: friday night!

Postby nass » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:35 pm

It's been five days since it clicked. The most interesting thing about it being how ordinary it is, indeed.

Now what? Chop wood, carry water, right...

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nass
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Re: friday night!

Postby nass » Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:45 pm

So, Vivien, what do I do now? I'm interested in seeing what's going on with others at the gate and so on; here, most of the time, there are thoughts about "I" just like before and also there's the expectation of them falling away, and then there's not, and then again...

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Vivien
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Re: friday night!

Postby Vivien » Mon May 18, 2020 2:06 am

Hi nass,

Could you please tell a bit about how the self shows up in your everyday life?


What thinks?
What feels sensations?
What moves the body?
What sees?
What hears?
What decides?
What is in charge of what is happening?
What is it that doesn’t happen automatically?
How do you see free will and responsibility?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
nass
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Re: friday night!

Postby nass » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:39 am

Hi Vivien,
Could you please tell a bit about how the self shows up in your everyday life?
It doesn't. There's only a lot of thoughts about a self, about a person and its life-story, about someone believing in the content of those thoughts etc.
What thinks?
Thoughts are. They just happen. No plural, actually. There's thought or thinking, and there's noone doing it.
What feels sensations?
Nothing. There's just the sensation.
What moves the body?
It moves by itself, together with the rest of everything.
What sees?
Nothing! It's all one package, the seeing and the seen.
What hears?
There's sound and that's it.
What decides?
There's noone who decides and there are no decisions.
What is in charge of what is happening?
In DE there's nothing known of that sort. "Being in charge" or "not being in charge" doesn't make sense. Making sense doesn't make or not make sense either. I mean that saying "what is is in charge of what is" is just an unnecessarily complicated way of saying "what is, is".
What is it that doesn’t happen automatically?
Nothing.
How do you see free will and responsibility?
There is no free will and no responsibility. How do "I" see it... as a game perhaps; as in - the belief in free will and responsibility makes you play along, pretending you're other than the game. The game could be called This.


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