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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:22 pm

Hi again.

What is it that experiences it?
I don't know. It hasn't happened.

Are you supposing that you are not a separate self, but you are
something that is not separate?
All I know is that as it is now, my experience is that I am seprate from everything and everyone else. That I'm inside this body here and everything else is outside of it.
At the same time I believe those countless people who say it is just an illusion, that it's not true, and I think experiencing it is what I have been searching for all those years.


J.

Bananafish
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Re: ja

Postby Bananafish » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:37 pm

Hi Jaro. :)


my experience is that I am seprate from everything and everyone else. That I'm inside this body here and everything else is outside of it.


Please face directly forward. Don't move your head.
How do you perceive the boundary between inside and outside?


and I think experiencing it is what I have been searching for all those years.


What if there is none of what you are searching for?
What if what you've searched for was an illusion?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Website: https://en.modernkoanproject.com

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:35 pm


How do you perceive the boundary between inside and outside?

I've done this countless times. Today was no different. Even when I stop noticing the tip of my nose etc, I still have a very strong sensation of "me here, things there". But the boundary... I don't know. It's for sure more than just thoughts, the sensation doesn't disappear when no thoughts are present.

What if there is none of what you are searching for?
What if what you've searched for was an illusion?

I've read and heard too many people saying basically the same things about liberation. Sages of the past, present teachers, people on this forum... I have to believe them. I am assuming what I have searched for is at least partially a fantasy, because imagined things are not the real things. It will be what it will be.



J.

Bananafish
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Re: ja

Postby Bananafish » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:51 pm

Hi Jaro. :)


I still have a very strong sensation of "me here, things there".


Could you elaborate? What is a very strong sensation of "me here, things there"
What kind of sensation are they? How different they are?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Website: https://en.modernkoanproject.com

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:10 am

Hi :)

Could you elaborate? What is a very strong sensation of "me here, things there"
What kind of sensation are they? How different they are?

I'm sorry, sometimes I forget to choose my words more carefully. There is no sensation of separation, it is an experience of separation. By "very strong" I mean that there is not even a slightest experience of non-separation. It's the snandard thing, what I've been experiencing for as long as I can remember. A separate being inside the body, experiencing the world that's outside the body.

J.

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Re: ja

Postby Bananafish » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:19 am

Thanks for the perseverance! :)


There is no sensation of separation, it is an experience of separation.


What is the difference between sensation of separation and experience of separation?


By "very strong" I mean that there is not even a slightest experience of non-separation.
[/quote]



What is your idea of "experience of non-separation?"
What isn't separate from what? Is that a special experience apart from our everyday experience?


Just in case, are you treating the word "separate" as synonymous to
"different"?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Website: https://en.modernkoanproject.com

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domostroy
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:31 am

Hi Bananafish, thank you. No need for perseverance, I trust it's all for a reason :)

Just in case: I'm deep in theory land with all these questions. I probably have been for a few days now :)


What is the difference between sensation of separation and experience of separation?

I'd say sensation is a fleeting thing, open to interpretation, part of experience. Experience is what is happening regardless of interpretation by thoughts. In this case, it must be experience since I don't experience anything out of the ordinary. When people talk about no longer feeling separate, I assume it's their experience, not interpretation of it.


What is your idea of "experience of non-separation?"

No longer experiencing a clear separatedness from the world around. Just to be clear, it's quite fuzzy to me. It's not the reason why I'm here.


What isn't separate from what?

My idea is that since everything happens and is created inside us anyway, there's "true seeing" that it is indeed the case.


Is that a special experience apart from our everyday experience?

I don't know. I assume it must be different from standard human experience since it's such a big deal for many people who experience this.


Just in case, are you treating the word "separate" as synonymous to
"different"?

Well... Yes, even if I didn't think about it like this. There is only one human that is exactly like me, so I'm not only separate from everything and everyone, I'm also different from everything and everyone.

All the best,

J.

Bananafish
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Re: ja

Postby Bananafish » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:13 am

Hi. :)


I'd say sensation is a fleeting thing, open to interpretation, part of experience. Experience is what is happening regardless of interpretation by thoughts. In this case, it must be experience since I don't experience anything out of the ordinary. When people talk about no longer feeling separate, I assume it's their experience, not interpretation of it.


Well, this seems, even logic wise, very very very incomplete and flawed.
(all thoughts are more or less flawed anyway :p). If you stab a pin in your hand, is that pain itself,
that sensation, an interpretation? Would you say that the pain won't happen if you can't think?

Then, what about babies?


Would you, also, say that experience is something out of ordinary?
If you drink water, isn't it an experience of drinking water?


What about "no longer feeling separate"? Isn't it an interpretation also?


It's not the reason why I'm here.


I may be misunderstanding you; so you are not here to realize that there is nothing like
a concrete an lasting entity called "self," separate from everything else?


My idea is that since everything happens and is created inside us anyway,
there's "true seeing" that it is indeed the case.


Sorry, but this didn't make sense at all.
Does it make sense to you?



[quoteThere is only one human that is exactly like me, so I'm not only separate from everything and everyone, I'm also different from everything and everyone.[/quote]



This again sounds very much flawed logic wise.

Do you mean, if you are different from everything else, you are always separate from everything else?
And if you are exactly the same as someone else, you are not separate, always?

Are your feet separate from your hands?


Warm regards,

Bananafish
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Website: https://en.modernkoanproject.com

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domostroy
Posts: 215
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Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:21 pm

Hi again.

Yes, I'm sure it's all more or less flawed. I'm not invested in what I have been writing about separatedness/oneness because I don't really know nor think much about it. Like I wrote, it's very fussy to me. It seems like two different topics. There being no self and the experience of non-separateness, I mean.


If you stab a pin in your hand, is that pain itself,
that sensation, an interpretation?
I answered t

A sensation we call "pain"? All of these are just words. Pin stabbing happens -> pain happens. But pain is just a word. So something happens and causes something else to happen. But even these are also just words.


Would you say that the pain won't happen if you can't think?
Then, what about babies?

Yes, what we call physical pain happens whether we think or not.


Would you, also, say that experience is something out of ordinary?

Generally no, but some experiences seem to be out of the ordinary. Maybe they are, I don't know.


If you drink water, isn't it an experience of drinking water?

Yes. But the experience of drinking water and other experiences can change, depending on our neurology etc. I'm guessing feeling separated from the outside world and not feeling that are variations of the same basic experience. So it's either a question of interpretation, or something inside changes.


I may be misunderstanding you; so you are not here to realize that there is nothing like
a concrete an lasting entity called "self," separate from everything else?

Yes, I am here to realize that self is an illusion. For some reason I didn't think this non-separateness thing is a natural part of that. If it is, I'm here for both :)


Sorry, but this didn't make sense at all.
Does it make sense to you?

Yes, maybe clumsy stated. I meant the difference between knowing about something and seeing that something. You know, theory and experiencing it.

Do you mean, if you are different from everything else, you are always separate from everything else?
And if you are exactly the same as someone else, you are not separate, always?

No, different doesn't mean separate. Just different. I meant separate AND different.

Are your feet separate from your hands?

Well, yes. But they are parts of the same body.



J.

Bananafish
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Re: ja

Postby Bananafish » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:58 pm

I am here to realize that self is an illusion.


Ok, then why bother talking other things? :)

Please tell me what you think self and illusion are, separately.

Next, please tell me how self feels and how illusion feels (you can google some
optical illusion thing afterwards), separately.


Warm wishes,

Bananafish
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Website: https://en.modernkoanproject.com

User avatar
domostroy
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:26 am

Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:27 pm

Hi Bananafish, thank you.


Ok, then why bother talking other things? :)

I've been wondering that for the past few days :)



Please tell me what you think self and illusion are, separately.

Self: a false entity that we humans create out of thoughts, language, sensations.


Illusion: something that seems to be one thing, but in reality is another.


Next, please tell me how self feels and how illusion feels (you can google some
optical illusion thing afterwards), separately.

Self: there is no one special feeling to it. I don't notice anything like that.


Illusions: same here. You could be puzzled or laugh. No particular feeling to them.



All the best,

J.

Bananafish
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Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
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Re: ja

Postby Bananafish » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:31 pm

Hi Jaro. :)


Self: there is no one special feeling to it. I don't notice anything like that.

Illusions: same here. You could be puzzled or laugh. No particular feeling to them.


Haha, you don't notice an "self" nor "illusion" at all, do you?
Do you still feel that there is one?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Website: https://en.modernkoanproject.com

User avatar
domostroy
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:26 am

Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:39 pm

Hi Bananafish, thank you :)



Haha, you don't notice an "self" nor "illusion" at all, do you?

My experience is still that I am inside my body, separate from everything else. Although this has changed in some way since we started, I don't really know exactly how yet.
"Illusion", at the other hand, is an abstract idea. No, I don't notice anything like an "illusion".



Do you still feel that there is one?

The self? Yes.


All the best,

J.

Bananafish
Posts: 3631
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
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Re: ja

Postby Bananafish » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:54 pm

Hi Jaro. :)

That feels very strange to me.


You wrote "Self: there is no one special feeling to it. I don't notice anything like that."
And you say you feel that there is self?


Could you elaborate?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Website: https://en.modernkoanproject.com

User avatar
domostroy
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:26 am

Re: ja

Postby domostroy » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:36 am

Hi :)


You wrote "Self: there is no one special feeling to it. I don't notice anything like that."
And you say you feel that there is self
Could you elaborate?

Well, as I wrote few times before, it's elusive and changing. Nothing steady. So no, no one special feeling to it, but many. I understand that it sounds stupid. I understand that there is no self and how it works. Nevertheless, the self is still intact. It must be, I think I would have noticed a shift, wouldn't I? Am I missing something obvious here?

J.


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