Just another story -- the singing of seeking

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NinetoNone
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:50 am

This is known.

There is no chorus of seraphim bells lining the heavens; there is no Oneness experience of dissolution into the background. There isn't much change at all, honestly...perhaps a slight reduction in neuroticism, when the cards play themselves in precisely the right way. It's just been seen that there's no Doer of Deeds.

There is no inherent self. There is no separate entity; there is a thought, aconcept of a separate entity, but this concept points towards nothing real.

The illusion of the separate self is born from language and concepts and Socratic(?) understanding of logic. A is true, A implies B, therefore B is true. But the implication is, in this case, false.
The self-concept is a useful concept. "I am going to the store; I am getting milk and eggs; I am bleeding and need a bandage." The illusion of I is born from the usefulness of the concept of I. The conceptual I is not a problem, but there is no true I to which the concept points.

There is little change in everyday life. Perhaps a slight reduction of neuroticism with the appreciation that there is no one in control. No one to stop thinking, no one to decide when to get off the meditation couch, no one to resist impulses, no one to realize there is no one.
There is slightly more noticed when stopping to pay attention. Thoughts happen. Sensations happen. Belief happens. Identification happens. There is no control anywhere in the mix.

What pushed me over was understanding the *concept of I* is not problematic. I (the useful conceptual pronoun) had been trying to reject the concept of self rather than the truth of direct experience. There was a misconception -- now clearly Selfless -- that seeing through the illusion could bring the end of pain. The illusion dreamed that seeing through the illusion could end all problems now and forever. The push is in realizing that the patterns go on, that the road stretches onward.

There was a simple experience that brought the change. I was walking through a dark park late at night in the middle of a quarantine. The thought patterns, what I considered to be me, supplied fearful dialogue. "I should turn back; maybe there's someone waiting in the shadows to rob me." For so long the thought patterns have colored the show, and they continue to do so for exactly as long as they do. Identification happens automatically. But this time, "I" didn't let the Thinking define what would happen. And then I realized "I" is not in control.

There is no control. Or at least there's nothing separate from the rest of life to exert control, though habitually the feeling will continue on. The words come to mind that "free will is a paradox that's not."

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Vivien
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:42 am

Hi Isaac,

So can you say with a 100% certainty that there has been a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential one?
Or is there any doubt, even if just a slightest?

If there were a shift, how did the shift itself FELT?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NinetoNone
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Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:31 am

Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:01 pm

So can you say with a 100% certainty that there has been a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential one?
Or is there any doubt, even if just a slightest?
The knowing isn't something that glares in my (the useful conceptual pointer, not any real truth) face, but it seems obvious whenever I stop to look that there is no doer of deeds. Which means there isn't really anyone stopping to look, just an activity being described in the constant flow of experience.

If there is any doubt, it only occurs when trying to compare direct experience to theoretical experience described by others. Concepts and thoughts try to describe what "should be" as opposed to what is, but it's very clear that thoughts don't hold truth about what actually is. "I should be doing this" is just thought activity happening.

Attitude in meditation has had a pretty decent shift because there's less attachment to the outcome. There is no one to stop thinking thoughts, so thoughts aren't really turned into an enemy anymore; they're just one aspect of this whole, magnificent experience.

If there were a shift, how did the shift itself FELT?
Very subtle/small/hard to describe with words. I started really observing the sense of being in control of things, of choice. Like the activity with lifting the hand or raising a finger or something like that. And just realized that there isn't really a choice to anything -- no choice when to start thinking, when to stop thinking, when to get up. Thinking says "I should get up" but that isn't a choice and I didn't choose to think "I should get up".

I'm not sure if there was an actual real shift that could be felt. I guess it happened when I was out on a walk and there is just a stream of Thinking-Seeing-Thinking-NotThinking-oh wait. There were a few "oh wait I didn't choose that" realizations and then it just became obvious. Again, nothing screaming in my face. Honestly more like an "oh." than an "OH!!!"

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Vivien
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:14 am

Hi Isaac,
The knowing isn't something that glares in my (the useful conceptual pointer, not any real truth) face
Since this is a second time that you use the word of ‘knowing’ instead of ‘seeing’, I have to ask you again, if it is seen in EXPERIENCE that there is no self/experiencer/feeler/thinker there, or not?

Or maybe it’s mixed? How much of it is an intellectual understanding and how much of it’s a clear experiential recognition? 50-50? Less? More?

And how does it FEEL to see that the self is imaginary?
Please talk about how it feels, if there is any emotional reaction to the recognition of this fact.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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