Just another story -- the singing of seeking

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NinetoNone
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:48 pm

The perfectionist conditioning wanted to make a good post, but I can't spend eternity so...
What is it exactly that is believing in the I-thought?
In DE, the only belief about the I-thought *is* the I-thought. The I-thought is subtle, sometimes more visual than verbal, and sticky. I can't actually find anything other than the I-thought.

I think some reification happens in meditation because of this consistent experience of sitting down to meditate, then thoughts happen, then at some point there is a sense of "snapping back" to realize that "I got lost in thought". So there's a sense of identity based around that continuity. But the identification is only ever a thought, however subtle. Even "I am the body" is a thought following a sensation.
Where is the exact location of the believer of the I-thought?

Where is the feeler?
Where is the exact location of the feeler?
In DE, I can't find the exact location of the believer. Behind the eyes is just sensation and imagination. The body is separate from the sense of looking out of the eyes and therefore cannot be the exact location. I can't find the exact location. It's frustrating, but
And what does shame is happening TO?
What is that feels the same?
Emotions arise as feelings which are part of what we label as the body. So shame and frustration appear to be happening to the body. It might follow that what's really happening is just a sensation and then a story about that sensation. Thoughts happen, automatically, after everything, which creates a constant stream of analysis. But in DE I can't find anything other than sensations and thoughts; I can't actually find an *I* these sensations are happening to.
Already there is stimulus and response. So seems like only difference would be in whether or not the illusion is believed. Whether or not I believe the thought that "I am Awareness".
Please read your above comment carefully.

Do you see that there is a belief that there are two selves:
- the I who believes the thought (self 1: the I itself that believes)
- that it is awareness (self 2: awareness)

So this I has to be something else than this assumed awareness in order to be able to believe the thought “I am awareness”. Can you see this?

Can you see that it’s even logically fails?
I'm sorry, but would it be possible to spend a little more time on this? Thoughts are stuck on seeing this as 'whether or not Awareness believes it is Awareness'. I know this is wrong but I cannot honestly say it has logically sunk in.


Thank you so much for all you do. Hope you have a blessed and safe day,
Isaac

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Vivien
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby Vivien » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:40 am

Hi Isaac,
The perfectionist conditioning wanted to make a good post, but I can't spend eternity so...
:) You don’t have to make a perfect or even a good post, just an honest post. This is not an exam that you could fail. I’m here to help you when you are stuck. Don't wait too much time with your reply.
But the identification is only ever a thought, however subtle. Even "I am the body" is a thought following a sensation.
Yes, nice looking.
Emotions arise as feelings which are part of what we label as the body. So shame and frustration appear to be happening to the body.
This is coming from logic, and not from looking.
But in DE I can't find anything other than sensations and thoughts; I can't actually find an *I* these sensations are happening to.
This is coming from looking.
I: Already there is stimulus and response. So seems like only difference would be in whether or not the illusion is believed. Whether or not I believe the thought that "I am Awareness".
V: Please read your above comment carefully.

Do you see that there is a belief that there are two selves:
- the I who believes the thought (self 1: the I itself that believes)
- that it is awareness (self 2: awareness)

So this I has to be something else than this assumed awareness in order to be able to believe the thought “I am awareness”. Can you see this?

Can you see that it’s even logically fails?
I: I'm sorry, but would it be possible to spend a little more time on this? Thoughts are stuck on seeing this as 'whether or not Awareness believes it is Awareness'. I know this is wrong but I cannot honestly say it has logically sunk in.
Yes, look at this more. This is important.

But HOW do you know that awareness believes it is awareness?
Where does this information coming from experientially?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NinetoNone
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:52 am

:) You don’t have to make a perfect or even a good post, just an honest post. This is not an exam that you could fail. I’m here to help you when you are stuck. Don't wait too much time with your reply.
Thank you so much.
But HOW do you know that awareness believes it is awareness?
Where does this information coming from experientially?
Oh! This is just a thought! Awareness is a thought. Belief is a thought. Awareness believes it is awareness arises only in thinking, which is unreliable.

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Vivien
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby Vivien » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:59 am

Hi Isaac,
Oh! This is just a thought! Awareness is a thought. Belief is a thought. Awareness believes it is awareness arises only in thinking, which is unreliable.
Can you see this experientially, or rather this is just a logical conclusion?
Awareness believes it is awareness arises only in thinking, which is unreliable.
Are thoughts contain any experience?
Do thoughts know (literally) about experience?
Do thoughts actually know how things are (like there being an awareness)?


Please look very carefully with these comments. Look many times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NinetoNone
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:40 am

Can you see this experientially, or rather this is just a logical conclusion?
Mostly a logical conclusion born from looking only at direct experience of Seeing, Hearing, Tasting, Touching, Thinking. But it seems true too. There's a thought that there should be something under the surface, something other than direct experience, but this is only thinking.

Clearly the content of thought can't always be believed because this is obvious again and again. But it also seems like there's no control whether or not the content of thought IS believed.
Do thoughts know (literally) about experience?
No, thoughts don't know experience. Thoughts follow experience, reflect on experience, and make assumptions or extrapolations from experience. But thoughts don't actually know experience.

But this understanding that the content of thoughts aren't always true is only upheld in meditation or reflection.
Do thoughts actually know how things are (like there being an awareness)?


No. Like you've said before, thoughts are real but their content isn't....but I still act like the content of thoughts are real. Frustrating.

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Vivien
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:37 am

Hi Isaac,
Like you've said before, thoughts are real but their content isn't....but I still act like the content of thoughts are real.
Who or what is this I, who/what acts like the content of thoughts was real? – search for it

You cannot say that it’s a thought, since thoughts cannot act.
You cannot say that it’s the body, since the body has no idea about thoughts, let alone the content of thoughts.

What wants to change whether the contents of thoughts are taken real or not? – search for it

You cannot say that it’s a thought that wants it, since thoughts cannot want!

Where is this I you are talking about? WHERE? – search for it

Where is this I who wants to things be different (not believing the content of thoughts)? – search for it

WHERE is this I (literally where it is) who supposedly believes in the content of thoughts? – search for it

Which sensation FEELS to be the me?
Which bodily sensation feels to be the believer of thoughts?
Which sensations FEELS to be the one that acts as if the contents of thoughts were true?


It’s very important that you don’t reply from thinking or any logical conclusion, but rather literally search through the whole body from head to toe for this I who/what is supposedly believes in thoughts and act as if the contents were true.

Search for this not only during meditation, but in the midst of everyday life. Search for the believer/wanter as often as possible, even if just for 10-30 seconds each).
but I still act like the content of thoughts are real.
Do you expect that ‘acting like the content of thoughts are real’ should change?

Change for who?

Who would benefit from not acting like the content are real?


Search for the one who/what would benefit from it.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NinetoNone
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:35 am

Can't report any progress. I'm sorry; I'm trying as much as I possibly can. Every free moment. Enquiry is consuming my life.  I think I'm going to try to respond every day even if the responses aren't effective -- exactly like you already said -- because I don't seem to be making any headway.
I'm sorry. The frustration is strong right now. I want this to be done. And I try searching for who the frustration is happening to, who wants this to be done...

Going to report exactly what happens when I search for where the I is.
Take any given pointer about search for I. I read the pointer; I try to look directly through the body. I try to pay attention to sensations; thinking gets quiet for a few moments and there's just silence. There's no real change in the body, it feels like I'm just sitting here. Then attention gets diffused after a few seconds; there's this running story that ADHD makes enquiry impossible because something else pops up a few seconds later. There's no control at all in direct experience, which is what leads to the obvious intellectual extrapolation that I don't exist. But that's conceptualizing, which is happening automatically. So I try to just let conceptualizing happen and look for what's aware of the conceptualizing, for who the conceptualizing is happening to. And nothing happens. Just sitting here, and then thought starts up again and before I know it I'm thinking about work or finding a place to live or a fight with my partner or if we'll have enough food to eat.

I can't find myself. I keep looking and it keeps feeling like nothing's happening and I know it's not a state but I keep running into this wall of WHY ISN'T ANYTHING CHANGING and then I try to use that as a pointer (who wants something to change?) And get nowhere.
Which sensation FEELS to be the me?
Which bodily sensation feels to be the believer of thoughts?
Which sensations FEELS to be the one that acts as if the contents of thoughts were true?
There are sticky sensations. A feeling of tension circling like a band around the top of my head. A feeling of tension and deep frustration in my chest. There's a subtle thought that 'this tension shouldn't be here' so I try asking who believes that the tension shouldn't be here and all I find is the tension and the thought.

Thank you so much for all you do and for the willingness to point us. I'm sorry there's so much struggle and frustration. I'm genuinely trying, I just don't know how to break through, how to be done with this.

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Vivien
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:52 am

Hi Isaac,
I'm sorry there's so much struggle and frustration. I'm genuinely trying, I just don't know how to break through, how to be done with this.
I understand your frustration. It’s actually part of the process, and almost everybody experiences it at some point of the injury.
Can't report any progress. I'm sorry; I'm trying as much as I possibly can. Every free moment. Enquiry is consuming my life. I think I'm going to try to respond every day even if the responses aren't effective -- exactly like you already said -- because I don't seem to be making any headway.
It’s much better if you write every day. You don’t have to do this alone. That’s why I’m here. If you write every day, and report what’s going on, I might pick up something you cannot see.
Going to report exactly what happens when I search for where the I is.
Take any given pointer about search for I. I read the pointer; I try to look directly through the body. I try to pay attention to sensations; thinking gets quiet for a few moments and there's just silence. There's no real change in the body, it feels like I'm just sitting here.
OK. Do you expect to have a change in the body?

Do you know why we are scanning through the body?

What do you do exactly when you ‘trying to look directly through the body’?
What does it mean for you ‘looking directly through the body’?
I can't find myself. I keep looking and it keeps feeling like nothing's happening and I know it's not a state but I keep running into this wall of WHY ISN'T ANYTHING CHANGING and then I try to use that as a pointer (who wants something to change?) And get nowhere.
I suggest changing the word ‘who’ to ‘what’ with every looking question.
And also, don’t just ask ‘what’, but also ‘where’.

Where is the ‘thing’ that want something to change?

And as you ask this questions, search through the body, search through all the sensations, if any of the sensations is the thing that wants this.

Also, you can ask:

What made the thought “why isn’t anything changing” to appear?
WHERE is the thinker of this thought?


And then search through the whole head, investigate every FEELING/SENSATION in the head, if any of those is the thinker, the wanter of things to change.
There are sticky sensations. A feeling of tension circling like a band around the top of my head. A feeling of tension and deep frustration in my chest. There's a subtle thought that 'this tension shouldn't be here' so I try asking who believes that the tension shouldn't be here and all I find is the tension and the thought.
Rather ask:

What made this thought to appear?
WHERE is the thinker of this thought?
Where is the I that thinks that this tension shouldn’t be here?


Search through all the sensations in the head, and try to localize the I, where the thinker of thoughts resides.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NinetoNone
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:51 am

Do you expect to have a change in the body?


Don't think so, no. It's still the same thing I've seen a thousand time -- a habit of a thought responding to a sensation a certain way. Tension/contraction and then the thought "this contraction seems to be me so if I see through no self it will go away" when that can't be true. It's just a thought that is sometimes believed.
Do you know why we are scanning through the body?
I can hypothesize or extrapolate but I'm not sure, no. I would say it's something like trying to look at actual direct experience and see if there is a Self anywhere in it. By seeing that the senses in the body appear automatically and are uncontrolled, I could see how that slowly trains the brain to realize the self-concept is just a concept.
What do you do exactly when you ‘trying to look directly through the body’?
What does it mean for you ‘looking directly through the body’?
I guess, for me, it means being still and letting whatever I feel in my body to come to the front of attention and to scan those sensations to try to find a 'Self', though don't know what that actually means or what a Self would even feel like. Sometimes there's identification with all the body.

Had a peak experience -- therefore a state -- where it seemed like Thinking supplies the I and the body sensations were more like 'Am'ming.

Still working on the second half of these pointers! More soon.

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NinetoNone
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:54 am

Where is the ‘thing’ that want something to change?

And as you ask this questions, search through the body, search through all the sensations, if any of the sensations is the thing that wants this.


So there might be some confusion with this. Using the head tension/pulsing as an example: if I feel the tension in the forehead and then ask what wants this to change, the answer that comes to mind is the tension wants to get rid of itself. But is that really the tension speaking or is it just a thought arising about the tension? I'm stuck here

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Vivien
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:47 am

Hi Isaac,
So there might be some confusion with this. Using the head tension/pulsing as an example: if I feel the tension in the forehead and then ask what wants this to change, the answer that comes to mind is the tension wants to get rid of itself. But is that really the tension speaking or is it just a thought arising about the tension? I'm stuck here
Is there anything else to this tension other than sensations? - look very carefully

Can a sensation talk or communicate any meaning?
Or all meaning and communication is coming from THOUGHTS ABOUT the sensation labelled ‘tension’?


Please don't thing about the answer, but really investigate the raw, unadulterated experience, in this case the sensation itself.

Does the sensation itself even suggest or communicate at any way that it’s a tension?
Or tension is just a thought label ABOUT the sensation?

But is that really the tension speaking or is it just a thought arising about the tension?
Can a sensation speak?

Or this SEEMING speaking is just a thought ‘subtitle’ to the sensation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NinetoNone
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:29 am

No, a sensation is just a sensation. The sensation doesn't talk and tension is a label provided by thought.
I guess the confusion is that the sensation seems unpleasant. Unpleasant is just a label but it feels very real. So thinking says if thought are not believed then the unpleasantness should go away. So I guess this a subtle bodybexpectation

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Vivien
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:02 am

Hi Isaac,
Unpleasant is just a label but it feels very real.
To whom/what does the sensation feels real?
What feels sensations?
WHERE is the feeler?

So thinking says if thought are not believed then the unpleasantness should go away.
Thoughts say that or YOU believe and expect that unpleasant sensations should go away?

WHO or WHAT is talking?

Can a thought talk?
If not, where is the self/I, on whose behalf these thoughts are appearing?

WHO/WHAT want unpleasant sensations to go away?


Please don’t say that a thought wants it.
Since thoughts cannot want. Is this clear?

Is there anything else to thoughts than words and letters?


If there is a desire for unpleasant sensations to go away, then there must be a wanter… there must be something wanting it. But more importantly, there must be someone FEELING those sensations.

So what is FEELING the unpleasant sensations?

WHERE is the I that these sensations are supposedly belonging to, and felt by?

What is it that is bothered by the unpleasant sensations?

You cannot say that thoughts are bothered. Since thoughts are not feeling entities, aren’t they?

And where is the wanter?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NinetoNone
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby NinetoNone » Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:17 am

There is no one the sensations are happening to. Sensations are just happening.
There is no feeler. There is no one to stop feeling. There is no believer; there is no one to start or stop believing.
No one controls talking. No one controls feeling, or sensing, or seeing. Thoughts are not happening to anyone.
Thoughts are just words and images, here and then not here.
There is no wanter. It's all just reactions.

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Vivien
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Re: Just another story -- the singing of seeking

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:00 am

Hi Isaac,
There is no one the sensations are happening to. Sensations are just happening.
There is no feeler. There is no one to stop feeling. There is no believer; there is no one to start or stop believing.
No one controls talking. No one controls feeling, or sensing, or seeing. Thoughts are not happening to anyone.
Thoughts are just words and images, here and then not here.
There is no wanter. It's all just reactions.
How much of this is seen experientially, and now much of this is a logical conclusion?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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