out of fear into the unknown

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:46 am

Interesting, isn’t it.
It’s like a drop becomes in charge of the ocean and starts to controlling the waves. But let’s look closer. Identifying happens, belief in a separate self happens, what is there that identity sticks to?
Is that an automatic process or something that you do to make happen?
And should identifying stop?

How do you see this?

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:09 pm

Hello Ilona,

Thank you for your reply, that was so nice to receive.

Identifying happens, belief in a separate self happens, what is there that identity sticks to?
Identity can stick to my role as a father to my son ... and Mark's personnality is comes through that function. Identity sticks sometimes it the relationships with my close family, parents and sister. It sticks to some of the functions that I have in relationships.
Is that an automatic process or something that you do to make happen?
And should identifying stop?

How do you see this?
It's an automatic process, I guess if identifying is happening it's not a problem, that's what us right now ... even though the drop can't control the ocean, the waves or itself, the illusion of a separate world with separate people is there. The sticking happens because identity still has something to stick to at this time.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:50 am

The sticking happens because identity still has something to stick to at this time.
And what is that?
What is that needs identity?
Look behind it and see what is there?

Love

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:01 pm

Hello Ilona,

Thank you for your reply.
What is that needs identity?
Look behind it and see what is there?
Mind and thinking needs identity, and an identity isn't really more than a label pointing to the experiencer (all the rest is transitent). Behind the identity is all that the thoughts have constructed as memory and beliefs and future projects.

Up until now, some of the roles I have and the negative emotions I can feel, feed the old identity and keep it going.
The experiences lived are new but while an identity is there, the exeriences are interpreted according to the story that the identity repeats.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:54 am

Mind needs an identity — this is another thought, is that thought saying truth? Does mind need an identity? How do you know that?

What is the experiencer in actuality?
Is there a gap between experiencer and experienced?
Right here right now, is there a reader and the read? Is there a sitter and sitting? Is there a breather and the breathing?
Is there a perceiver outside of perceived, doing perceiving?

How do you see that?

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:38 am

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for your repy and your persistence, pointing out where my thoughts are going round in circles .... Maybe mind doesn't need an identity, I can't be sure.

What is the experiencer in actuality?
Is there a gap between experiencer and experienced?
Right here right now, is there a reader and the read? Is there a sitter and sitting? Is there a breather and the breathing?
Is there a perceiver outside of perceived, doing perceiving?
The experiencer IS the ACTIVITY of experiencing, there is no gap between them. Right now there is just the sitting, reading, breathing, knower of experience.

What I see is that the roles that I plays, and the emotions that I feels, are activitities that have provoked until now in this bodymind, a dualistic response ... however all the while the knowing is there at the same time.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:51 am

Interesting. In one sentence you say that there is no gap, there is siting, reading, experiencing, knowing. In another sentence you say that it is the i that feels and plays roles. Which is it?
Where is the i in experience? Is it i that sits, i that is reading?

This article might help to see how language itself creates a doer
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/ ... guage.html

See how language creates a subject, doing action. But where is the subject without thought about one?

Explore and write what you notice.

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:41 pm

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for your reply and the link to your article about language.
In one sentence you say that there is no gap, there is siting, reading, experiencing, knowing. In another sentence you say that it is the i that feels and plays roles. Which is it?
Where is the i in experience? Is it i that sits, i that is reading?

See how language creates a subject, doing action. But where is the subject without thought about one?
Yes, it is odd to have two conflicting interpretations !
There is no I in experience, but in language and thought the I is the subject of the story where some action is taking place.
So with no thinking about the subject ... there just isn't one.

All's good then if the wording is truer to experience ... thoughts come and then go, the stories too, presence is there all the while ...

Exploring this without a subject ... and when a trigger gives rise to thoughts and stories of an I.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:17 pm

Beautiful, yes.
All passes by, stories, thoughts, feelings, sensations, colours and presence is unchanging.
What do you notice in everyday life, does anything look and feel different?
What is the biggest surprise till now?

Love

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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:33 pm

Hello Ilona,
Thank you for your reply.

What do you notice in everyday life, does anything look and feel different?
What is the biggest surprise till now?
There's no experiencing of anything special, there is ordinary presence and a relaxing with it. Enjoying noticing what is there, with a lighter, freeer, unattatched perspective.

The surprise is to be present to whatever turns up in experience ... relaxing into it, and the moments when connection is felt with others and this movement of being alive.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:06 am

Beautiful.
Does that meet your expectations?
Would you say with a big fat yes, that it’s clear, the separate self is an illusion? If not, what else is unclear? What questions are still bugging you?

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:14 pm

Hi Ilona,

I really didn't know where this would go when we started this a few months ago ... but this dialogue with you and the experimentation of my direct experience has been an adventure out of what was my mapped teritory.

The separate self is an illusion ... that's totally clear ... no questions left.

Thank you so much for your patience guiding me and proposing this forum ... it's an incredible gift.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:27 am

In that case I have some final questions for you :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.


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