out of fear into the unknown

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:51 pm

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for these questions that allow me to clarify what’s going on for me … sorry it took me some time to get back.
What is the I that identifies with Mark?
Is mark perceiver of sensations?
Is mark in charge of what sensations show up?
And what is that says “my character”
What is the difference between my character and not mine? Is mum your character or someone else owns it?
The I that identifies with Mark is awareness.
Mark isn’t the perceiver of sensations, it’s awareness. Neither Mark nor awareness are in charge of what sensations show up, they just show up.
It’s thought that says “my character”, awareness sees no difference between my character and not mine (ex. mum) … because none of the characters really exist, they’re just manifestations in awareness. But from Mark’s perspective “mum” is someone else’s character.
See how this cartoon is created? A character mark (in the movie) is experiencing searching for himself. And is identifying with this contour 2d drawing. But is it that drawing that creates the cartoon? Or the drawing is created (and not by mark)
What is creating the story?
The story is created by thought … impersonal awareness becoming personal, and Mark is the character in the movie/drawing that thought has created and gives the illusion that he is an independent entity. In reality it is awareness that gives life to the character Mark.

All of this is clearer to me while I've been searching how to answer you ... and opens up for me the wish to explore these questions more deeply in my experience.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:25 am

Hi Mark, Thank you for reply and sorry for the delay with the answer.
You say
Mark isn’t the perceiver of sensations, it’s awareness.
Hm, is awareness the perceiver of sensations? Is there a gap between sensation and awareness of it?
Check it out closer. There are sounds. Is there a gap between awareness and sound? Is awareness perceiving the sound? Is there a perceiver at all?

Can awareness become personal and then impersonal?
There is a confusion here what awareness is, as if that is some kind of object/subject.
You are aware right now. And the objects of awareness are passing by, sounds, sensations, colours. Is awareness something that is passing by? Is being aware something that comes and goes?

Explore this and write to me.

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:04 am

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for your reply, your pointers are spot on again ... and that encourages me.
Hm, is awareness the perceiver of sensations? Is there a gap between sensation and awareness of it?
Check it out closer. There are sounds. Is there a gap between awareness and sound? Is awareness perceiving the sound? Is there a perceiver at all?
Yes, I've been confusing awareness as object/subject, and of course it's not. There's no gap between the sensation and the awareness of it. With sounds awareness is the hearing, no gap either. After your questions and my experience there is no perceiver, no object/subject just the awareing/perceiving/knowing.
Can awareness become personal and then impersonal?
You are aware right now. And the objects of awareness are passing by, sounds, sensations, colours. Is awareness something that is passing by? Is being aware something that comes and goes?
Awareness is always present no matter what ... the objects of awareness come and go in awareness, but there is really no object/subject, the hearing, seeing, touching is happening without a perceiver.
Awareness is only impersonal, it is the knowing without subject. The illusion of a personal consciousness in a subject/object relation comes from thought creating an I-thought ... and then I-stories in thought.

encouraging, stimulating, opening, appreciating

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:50 am

Wonderful, I hear you.
So is there I without a story about I?
Is sense of being here always or only sometimes?
Does being need an identity?
Is there a being or word being is a verb?
Write what you notice.

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:16 am

Ilona,
thank you for your reply that makes me feel more connected and your pointers that help me see which direction to go.
So is there I without a story about I?
Is sense of being here always or only sometimes?
Does being need an identity?
Is there a being or word being is a verb?
Write what you notice.
When being is all that's going on, there are no stories about an I ... and there is no I. Sense of being is here always but is forgotten when thinking takes over. Being doesn't need an identity it just experiences. Even to say 'a being' would give that an identity ... being is definetly a verb.

Being is going on and this is interrupted by Mark's worries and thinking activity ... if being is brought to the front of attention maybe being won't be interrupted when the thinking happens, and being can get more stable ?

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 pm

Thank you. Can you look and say is there a time when being is not here? Can you stop being? Drop out of being?
Replace word being with here now, or presence. See how that looks in experience.
When attention goes onto thought stories, does being disappear?
Examine this closer and write what you find out.

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:29 pm

Thanks Ilona,

I'll check out this out when stories come and get back to you soon.

Much love

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:21 pm

Hi Ilona,
Thanks for baring with me, and guiding me over this patch where I'm stuck.
Can you look and say is there a time when being is not here? Can you stop being? Drop out of being?
Replace word being with here now, or presence. See how that looks in experience.
When attention goes onto thought stories, does being disappear?
When I look being is always here, can't stop being or drop out of being. The 'here now' is always the experience I'm getting. When attention goes onto thought stories, the 'here now' is still there, but it is less present to me because the thought stories have an obsessive quality. When thinking is happening/experienced, the body sensations are still there, but it's like they are pushed to the back of experience .... Body sensations are real, thought experiences are a much paler version but they can be manipulated by thought and memory, I guess that's what makes them so compelling/obsessive. Sometimes when I come back out of thought to a similar state of presence that I was in before the thought, it's like my presence left me and came back only when the thought left, but when I look even when I'm thinking presence is still there... just not so strong.

Being is always happening, that's where to stay, right ... the thoughts about a non-existent I are just a distraction, and there's no need to do anything about them ? All that feels OK, but have I GOT IT or am I working at getting it ?

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:16 am

Ok, now look
Is there I to get it?
Is there I not to get it?
Is there a gate to cross?

Have fun with these questions.

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:33 am

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for your reply which cuts though the thoughts that have no place any more.
Is there I to get it?
Is there I not to get it?
Is there a gate to cross?
I can't find an I to get it, or to not get it. There's nothing an I has to do, because there isn't an I. There is no gate, it's just a pointer. All your pointers, since you accepted to have this dialogue with me, point to what cannot be understood by thought .... so the thoughts that arise don't need to be answered.

A different way of seeing and investigating is happening thanks to your pointers, and all the rest of life continues unchanged. No flash of light or sound.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:10 pm

Yes, all goes on as it did. But what looks different?
Can you look back before the start of this conversation and describe, what has changed and what hasn’t?
Do you notice anything different?
Anything missing?
More of something?

How is ordinary everyday life? Relationships with close people?
explore and write to me.

Much love

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Hi Ilona,

Thank you so much for your generosity and patience through this process with me.

What looks different ... I'm feeling and noticing what's going on from another space than before the start of this dialogue. There is still fear and anxiety from time to time, but I feel like the unknown isn't as scary as before, that I'm in the middle of the scary part rather than on the outside. The uncertainties of Mark's life haven't gone away, and the feeling of doership hasn't completely gone away either, but the ordinary everyday life is experienced more like a vipassena meditation (with some aches and pains and some good sensations) than a nose to the grindstone thing. What's different is that the internal dialogue has quietened and the things that Mark does, and everything else too doesn't have the same weight as before. Pressure and anxiety are there, but it's nobody's, and there is confidence that everything is fine. Have experienced some disorientation ... experiencing being and looking for an I, and feeling doership without a doer.
With those people close to me the relationships have been lighter than other times, with more presence and less dependence.

Gratitude and love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:45 am

Wonderful to read this.
I can see that the process of unfolding is going well.

More presence and quieter mind are nice confirmations.

Let’s look at marks life a bit closer. How would you describe, what is mark? Where is mark mark? What informs you about mark? When you look at mark, what do you see?

Explore this and write soon.
Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:30 am

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for your reply, sorry not getting back sooner, my sister came to visit and there were things to sort out.

Let’s look at marks life a bit closer. How would you describe, what is mark? Where is mark mark? What informs you about mark? When you look at mark, what do you see?
Mark is a label and a concept which describes a body, a conditioning, a life story with memories. Mark's body is easily locatable for me because the experiencing from here is through Mark's body. Mark's sensory body perceptions, and his emotions tell me about him. When I look at Mark I see him as a player in life's play ... but one that tried to break out too, struggling with his conditioning and not knowing where to find happiness and freedom.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:48 am

Thank you.
Which is it: Mark is a label or a player?


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