out of fear into the unknown

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HanumanMark
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out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:19 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have the intuition that my personality is just a bundle of characteristics of my conditioning and that underneath these superficial, dissociated characteristics, the consciousness that has the experiences is where ultimate reality lies.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for support for my transition to knowing non-separation, which I feel is under way. My mind is very active at times giving rise to fears. It would help me to have a guide who I can dialogue with.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I imagine that through the relationship with someone who has been through this process I will be able to relax and see what is already true. I imagine that the conversation will present me with some pointers to where I can investigate for myself my belief patterns.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
10 years of gestalt therapy, 10 years of meditation vipassana, many satsungs with different non dual teachers, listening to recordings and books.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:06 am

Hi HanumanMark,

Lovely to meet you.
We can have a chat and see where it takes you. I’m here to walk with you. All I ask for is complete honesty and answering from your own experience. Feel free to share as often and as much as you like.

Can you tell me, what are you looking for precisely?
What should change?
What you hope for?
What you do not want to happen?

Take your time with these questions.

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:52 pm

Hi Ilona,

I’m really happy to meet you, thanks for making this conversation happen !
I understand that honesty and answering from my own experience are necessary.

I’ve been trying to understand who/what I am and make sense of my time on this planet pretty intensely for the last 30 years. Now I know that there’s nothing for me to get from any understanding or experience, that I don’t need to improve myself or accomplish anything. My search is finished, and that has brought me some comfort as if I knew where I was on a map.

For the last year my anxiety has been regularly high, waking up early with negative thoughts as well as other times during the days when I’m not completely occupied. When I meditate or keep calm it’s possible for me to keep the thoughts away for a while, but then they come back and the fear is there. I have stuff to do to keep my living going and so some fears let me know that I need to get something done …
… what I’m looking for with your guidance is to see through the other thoughts, the ones that tell me to follow thought and would have me chase my tail. I’m reading your book liberation unleashed and while reading it I can see that I take most of my experience as a block without investigating where it comes from and what’s behind it … I think that I would be feeling less fear if I look at what’s behind the thoughts and investigate if there is a separate self to feel fear.

Nothing needs to change for me to investigate my fear.
It’d be great if my fear becomes my friend … like in a child’s book. I’d like to feel less like the wimpy kid and just feel more space for my awareness.
I feel open about what I might find but if I’m honest I don’t it to be too scary for too long … but I think that the fear is just imagined.

Love Mark

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:36 am

Thank you for answer.
For the last year my anxiety has been regularly high, waking up early with negative thoughts as well as other times during the days when I’m not completely occupied. When I meditate or keep calm it’s possible for me to keep the thoughts away for a while, but then they come back and the fear is there. I have stuff to do to keep my living going and so some fears let me know that I need to get something done …
Can you welcome the fear? It’s here with a message, it’s here to protect. Don’t try to get away from anything, allow everything. Allow this sensation too.

Where is it felt in the body?
See it. Feel it and tell it’s it’s ok for it to be here. It is safe for it to be here. Honour this fear as it is.
It’s ancient. It is protecting. It’s love.

What is that needs this protection?
Look behind it,
What do you see?

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:20 am

Gratitude for your message to me.

I couldn’t reply straight away because the idea of looking at my fear fills me with more fear …. But looking more closely at what’s going on here is the only direction that makes any sense.

Yes I do welcome the fear … and I feel the sensation. There’s a tightness in my belly and throat, and a pressure in my head. I tell it that it’s ok for it to be here … I can feel the safety of my own awareness underneath the fear, prior to it, and I can recognise that the fear is just a biological message for me to make me do what it thinks is necessary for my survival.

What needs protection is that which considers itself to be a separate entity …
I can’t find any separate entity … behind the idea of a separate entity are thoughts about a continuity in time of what feels the thoughts and sensations … and this continuity thought doesn’t seem to come from anywhere, it looks like an assumption.

The separate entity would have to be in control of its environment all the time in order to survive and this feels like an enormous daunting task with lots of place for fear….and if it’s not a separate entity I can understand why the fear gets stronger if I look closer here.

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:42 am

Yes, the separate self is an assumption. The fear is guarding the idea. What is the worst that can happen to an idea? Does fear still need to guard it?
Can you focus on the sensation of fear and ask it gently:
Is it a friend?
What does it want the most?
Is it helping?
And what was it before it became the fear?

Write to me what answers show up.

Love

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:10 am

Hi Illona
Yes, the separate self is an assumption. The fear is guarding the idea. What is the worst that can happen to an idea? Does fear still need to guard it?
The worst that can happen is that the idea is found to be false … and then fear no longer has to guard it if the truth has been let out.
Can you focus on the sensation of fear and ask it gently:
Is it a friend?
What does it want the most?
When I ask that question I can feel an empty silence but no answer. It seems that it wants to keep me in the safe zone that conditioning has made.
Is it helping?
And what was it before it became the fear?
It’s letting me know that I’m on the edge of what I know but it’s giving me lots of unpleasant sensations.

Before it was the sensation of fear it was silent awareness.

Thanks so much Illona to guide me through this !

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:16 am

Good stuff. How see that the silence is the answer.
https://youtu.be/vVfvRetanr0

Love

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:55 pm

Hi Illona,

Saw the video you sent me ... thanks so much !

It sounds simple to look and look at that silent space where 'I' seems to be coming from ... and the mind can't do anything.

Maybe something here understands where you're pointing ... I'll let you know what comes up ...

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:48 am

How is it going?

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:32 pm

Hi Ilona,

I’ve been attentive to the silence beyond the sensation of fear and beyond the sensation of a me.
It feels like the same background as when I meditate .. just this feeling of impersonal presence, without any identity or desire. Unpleasant sensations from fears and negative thoughts have been more bearable focussing on the silence.

While I was jogging this morning I could see my thoughts making their free associations by themselves speculating what might happen in the future based on past outcomes. At the same time I was enjoying what I was feeling from my senses, being outside and getting the dopamine from the muscle effort. All this was happening without a me making it happen … the ‘I’ felt like the totality of all of the experiences.

It’s when I believe what the thoughts say that my experience is hijacked and claimed by a me that tells its own stories and brings in psychological suffering. I can see it all playing out … maybe I need to experiment living without believing the thoughts that come up ?

Thanks Ilona,

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:30 pm

Thank you.
It’s interesting, you say that me tells it’s own stories, but what is actually going on?
Is me telling stories or stories arise by themselves about a me?
Is batman creating story about batman or is story about batman is not created by the character?

Tell me, what is not on automatic? What is not arising by itself?

Love

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm

Hi Illona,
It’s interesting, you say that me tells it’s own stories, but what is actually going on?

Is me telling stories or stories arise by themselves about a me?

Yes ... what I experience is that thoughts arise by themselves in awareness and the character that imagines itself a separate entity is the subject of these thoughts. So the stories appear spontaneously as thoughts that give rise to other thoughts about a separate self.... but when I look I can't find the separate entity.

Is batman creating a story about batman or is the story about batman not created by the character?

Tell me, what is not on automatic? What is not arising by itself?

Batman can't create stories ... but the thoughts that arise can create stories of batman ... and these thoughts don't belong to any particular body-mind ... but when my character imagines to be a separate entity he becomes the subject of the thoughts, and more thoughts about my character arise in awareness.

Everything is on automatic, sensations from the senses and thoughts alike arise by themselves in awareness .... and at the same time I experience a connection between belief in a separate entity and the arising of thoughts.

The belief to be a separate entity makes it possible for thoughts to have the subject it needs for the stories it creates.

Many thanks for your patience and generosity,

Love

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Ilona
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby Ilona » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:30 am

Batman can't create stories ... but the thoughts that arise can create stories of batman ... and these thoughts don't belong to any particular body-mind ... but when my character imagines to be a separate entity he becomes the subject of the thoughts, and more thoughts about my character arise in awareness.
Can a character imagine? Or the character is imagined?

Let’s look at the belief of separateness. What are you separate from precisely?
This may help
https://youtu.be/LXrfQqvwIcU

Love.

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HanumanMark
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Re: out of fear into the unknown

Postby HanumanMark » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:10 pm

Ilona,

Yes ... I like your video about the wave and the ocean ... and how you say water is an analogy for being/presence ... and we are movements in being/presence.

I feel my being/presence ... and I can see intellectually that I am the same being/presence in all manifestation ... and it's all fine ... so maybe soon the seeing of connectedness will become a feeling of connectedness ...

When thought subsides there is just is-ness and no one is there ... the difficulties I meet in my day to day life bring thoughts ... and with the thoughts comes my wave stories ... bring my attention back to my watery is-ness is what I feel I should do when thoughts come up.

Gratitude for your existence and openness,

Love


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