Looking for support, giving support

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Leela17
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Looking for support, giving support

Postby Leela17 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:58 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I clearly see and experience that the self that I had taken myself to be is only made of thoughts that are believed to be 'me'. After investigation there is only a field of awareness in which everything arises in including thoughts,feelings,sensations and the so called "outside world". I see it as energy dancing as well as deep silence underneath

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for support in truly living this realization in my everyday life. I have had the above realization many years ago and I have been living from that realization ever since, although lately I have been discovering subtle aspects that I still seem to be identified with. We never know what might still need to be seen through until life confronts us with situations that could bring them to awareness. As they come up, at times uncomfortably so, they are clearly seen for what they are from the field of awareness and in that they seem to thin out, I am looking for a brotherhood/ sisterhood to share experiences and give and receive support. I also would like to offer support to anybody interested.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't really expect anything in life :) but what I would love to receive is the ability to receive and also give support in fully living this realization in every day life. After reading the disclaimer below, I realize that this might not be the right forum to receive what I have been looking for. Maybe somebody can direct me to another forum or I might be able to assist other people on this one.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I had been on a spiritual journey my entire adult life until the veil popped. Lots of spiritual practices, retreats etc.
Lots of insights and powerful experiences and shifts along the way, but looking back I can now see that there was a still a sort of spiritual "I" that had remained that now felt free, that was now able to function in a radically different way. It's amazing how the "I" can sneak into even that realm of "Truth". At some point it became clear, that this "I" that underwent all these shifts, was still an idea that was false! There is no "I" that gets enlightened and there is no "I" that gets identified.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

barb
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby barb » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:09 pm

Hi...!

I would like to go a little bit with you on the pathless path... :)
At the beginning a few explanations:

This is not a "normal dialogue". Essentially, it's about asking you questions and assigning tasks and you answering them from your direct experience. See what you can do with your five senses and which thoughts you can observe. Look each fresh and do not call you on experiences that you have ever made.

You don’t actually have to do anything other than to LOOK with your five senses at what is being pointed at. To see you are already seeing and always have been seeing what actually is. This is not about thinking about something, it is about Direct Experience...

It is important that you try to be 100% honest in your own interest ... For the duration of this investigation, please leave all books, videos, satsangs other threads in this forum or whatever on the subject, which could affect direct viewing and perception. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that, but not necessary.

To keep your process flowing here, it would be good if you could answer every day at least every second day. If it does not fit or you need more time just let me know.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660



After reading the disclaimer below, I realize that this might not be the right forum to receive what I have been looking for. Maybe somebody can direct me to another forum or I might be able to assist other people on this one.
Yes, you're right... Here the main topic is to see, if there is an separate enity which we call „I“ To look at the nature of thought – if they can understand reality, and if the „I“ is more than thought content. You sound pretty clear, but let's have a look together if there are some hidden beliefs... :)
If this exploration will be over you're very welcome to become a guide at LU... And there are also some FB groups for exchange...


To begin with, so that we become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc in your own words could you please answer the following questions::


How should this „truly living“ the realization look like?
What will change, what will remain the same?
What do you expect, what do you hope?



Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.


I'm looking forward to your answers :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Leela17
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby Leela17 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:11 pm

Hi Barb!

Thank you so much for offering to be my guide. I very much appreciate it!
You don’t actually have to do anything other than to LOOK with your five senses at what is being pointed at. To see you are already seeing and always have been seeing what actually is. This is not about thinking about something, it is about Direct Experience...
I always appreciate the opportunity to look fresh again and again.

All the ground rules are clear and agreed upon.
How should this „truly living“ the realization look like?
It’s actually just a concept.
It wouldn’t look much different as it is now. In my experience there is an ongoing deepening of the realization in all aspects of life. Life will show itself where there is still remaining conditioning and momentary belief in “I” and “other” that can be seen through again and again. I don’t know how it would look like a few years from now. All I know that there is a deep satisfaction when life is lived from “heart space awareness” (for lack of a better term) more and more and more.
What will change, what will remain the same?
What possibly might change is the duration of living from heart space awareness with less and less distortion by conditioning.
What remains the same is life as it is.
It is understood that the expression of the conditioning is also part of the dance of life as well as the emptying out of that conditioning. It’s all part of an unbroken whole.
What do you expect, what do you hope?
I don’t expect anything. I hope for community to explore and deepen the realization on an ongoing basis.

barb
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby barb » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:48 am

Thank you so much for offering to be my guide. I very much appreciate it!
It's my pleasure :)


Maybe some of your expectations will be met sooner or later, or maybe never ... Please put them aside for the duration of our investigation. Expectations are THE obstacle, to see clearly that everything is as it is and nothing can be different than it is ... :)

I always appreciate the opportunity to look fresh again and again.
Great :)

It's good to take some time to see what direct experience is - that makes all other steps easier.
Sure, if I ask you what the weather is like, you can google it for a moment, think of it and search in your memories, what the weather forecast has said, call someone - or you just get up and look out of the window. You can only be certain if you have looked. Right?

If you look closely, can experience something in a different way, than seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling physically, thinking (just the process of thinking, not the content)? Can you find anything besides that?

Let's start with some basics to see where we stand and then we can dive deeper... :)

Most of the time, we are in the fairytale of thought content, not participating in the life through which the body goes.

Try what it is like to be in reality. In doing so, you will reduce reality to the names that are closest to perception. Do this exercise as often as possible throughout the day.

Simply name any experience as seeing-hearing-sensing-smelling-tasting-thinking (if you are alone, it is very good to do it loud :)...)

Do this while becoming aware of various things:

To see a tree, simply = seeing
The smell of coffee = smelling
The wind in the face = sensing
The toothpaste on the toothbrush = tasting
Hear a car pass by = hearing
Thought of the work = thinking (Thoughts can be words and mental images).
Thought of not have arrived yet = thinking
Tension in the neck = sensing
etc...

There are two kinds of thought:

1- The thought points to something perceptible via the senses at this moment - the thought 'labels'.
2- The thought points to another thought, this is thought-content and the story being told.

Simply subclassify all the experiences in these categories that are all direct experiences and tell me how that goes and what you've noticed - please give me a few examples.


I'm curious how this is for you :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Leela17
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby Leela17 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:43 pm

Hi Barb,
Expectations are THE obstacle, to see clearly that everything is as it is and nothing can be different than it is ... :)
Yes, that is clearly seen. I don’t feel I hold any expectations about this.
If you look closely, can experience something in a different way, than seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling physically, thinking (just the process of thinking, not the content)? Can you find anything besides that?
This is a very interesting question to me. I agree with you that all experience consists of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/sensation and the process of thinking. AND there is a field of awareness/spaciousness that encompasses every experience, is aware of every experience THAT CAN NOT BE SEEN,HEARD,SMELLED, TASTED, AND TOUCHED, and THOUGHT. The closest I could identify it is that it can be sensed. Not in a physical way though. It can be thought about, but it can’t be thought. It is here always, when thoughts are here or when thoughts are not here. It is here whether there is , seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, or touching occurring. It is the one constant factor in the ocean of constant movement.
Try what it is like to be in reality. In doing so, you will reduce reality to the names that are closest to perception. Do this exercise as often as possible throughout the day.

Simply name any experience as seeing-hearing-sensing-smelling-tasting-thinking (if you are alone, it is very good to do it loud :)…)


Simply subclassify all the experiences in these categories that are all direct experiences and tell me how that goes and what you've noticed - please give me a few examples.
eating oatmeal:
to see the bowl= seeing
to smell the aroma= smelling
to feel the warmth of bowl=feeling
to feel the warmth of first spoonful=feeling
to taste the maple syrup=tasting
hearing crickets=hearing
a car going by=hearing
slight cramp in belly=feeling
thought about exercise=thinking

sitting outside:
warmth of sun on back=feeling
seeing lake=seeing
calmness and joy=feeling
dragonfly=seeing
flowers=seeing
tree=seeing
crickets=hearing

stretching:
muscles stretching=feeling
soreness of muscle=feeling
breath deepening=feeling
energy pulsing=feeling
mat=seeing
touching mat=feeling
joint cracking=hearing
hair on my face=feeling
fabric on skin=feeling

I did more of those throughout the day. What was interesting to me was that the act of labeling everything felt very cumbersome. Although it did bring awareness to each experience in a direct way, it broke each experience into pieces. It felt exhausting. I noticed that if I just rest as what I call for now “Heart Space Awareness” the direct experiences of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, feeling, awareness of thinking occur as well without any labelling necessary and in a more fluid form. I notice that there are much fewer thoughts present as well.

barb
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby barb » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:29 am

Yes, that is clearly seen. I don’t feel I hold any expectations about this.
Very good :)
This is a very interesting question to me. I agree with you that all experience consists of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/sensation and the process of thinking. AND there is a field of awareness/spaciousness that encompasses every experience, is aware of every experience THAT CAN NOT BE SEEN,HEARD,SMELLED, TASTED, AND TOUCHED, and THOUGHT.

The word awareness could be a good concept for communication and also a good pointer.
But is this field of awareness more than an inference? Is this "awareness" separate from experiencing? Is there ever something other than experiencing?
The closest I could identify it is that it can be sensed. Not in a physical way though. It can be thought about, but it can’t be thought. It is here always, when thoughts are here or when thoughts are not here. It is here whether there is , seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, or touching occurring. It is the one constant factor in the ocean of constant movement.
Yes, I prefer to call it perceiving what some call awareness. Guess we mean the same constant,

but is it findable? Is this not always merged with some sort of experiencing? Seeingperceiving – hearingperceiving – sensingperceiving and so on? Can ever the absence of experience be experienced?

It's a little tricky to communicate on this level, because every word is a concept and can't describe the reality. We try to boil down as much as possible and the most suitable world is experiencing (in my experience... :))
I did more of those throughout the day. What was interesting to me was that the act of labeling everything felt very cumbersome. Although it did bring awareness to each experience in a direct way, it broke each experience into pieces. It felt exhausting.
Great, that shows us that you are already beyond. For someone who has not yet had your insights, this is an indispensable exercise... :)
I noticed that if I just rest as what I call for now “Heart Space Awareness” the direct experiences of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, feeling, awareness of thinking occur as well without any labelling necessary and in a more fluid form. I notice that there are much fewer thoughts present as well
Wonderful... <3

Here is something from your last post:
All I know that there is a deep satisfaction when life is lived from “heart space awareness” (for lack of a better term) more and more and more.
Could it be that this satisfaction and living from „heart space awareness“ is interpreted as the same?
What possibly might change is the duration of living from heart space awareness with less and less distortion by conditioning.
How is it known if this what appears are distortions? LOOK if there is an entity which judges some things as distortions and other as reality... Who makes claims on how life should appear? And why?
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Leela17
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby Leela17 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:54 pm

Hi Barb,

thank you so much for your reply. You asked some very interesting questions!
The word awareness could be a good concept for communication and also a good pointer.
But is this field of awareness more than an inference? Is this "awareness" separate from experiencing? Is there ever something other than experiencing?
I sat with this question for a while. It is really really tricky to put all of this into proper language. No, awareness is not separate from experiencing and yet it is not quite experiencing either, since it is the background out of which experiences emerge.( Or so it seems) It is different from experience in that it can be perceived by itself. What I mean by that is that it can be focused on outside of hearing, seeing, smelling, touching, tasting and thinking. It underlies every experience and yet it is not dependent on experience to be perceived. In my experience, when it is focused on, there is a very spacious and subtle blissful quality that emerges in which all experiences are directly experienced without any labeling by thought. To be clear: the subtle blissful quality is definitely experience and could come and go although in my experience it seems to be present a lot. But I also experienced phases where there seemed to be complete emptiness to this space awareness, so those subtle bliss quality is definitely not constant.But the spaciousness quality seems to be constant.
Yes, I prefer to call it perceiving what some call awareness. Guess we mean the same constant,

but is it findable? Is this not always merged with some sort of experiencing? Seeingperceiving – hearingperceiving – sensingperceiving and so on? Can ever the absence of experience be experienced?
To me it is findable as I indicated above. When I read your question above, the word “sensingperceiving” resonated with me. Yes, I feel this heart space awareness can be “sensingperceived”. There is a difference between feeling and sensing. Feeling is sensation through the physical body, whereas sensing refers to a more subtle experience. It is sensingperceived as spaciousness in all of experiences.
It's a little tricky to communicate on this level, because every word is a concept and can't describe the reality. We try to boil down as much as possible and the most suitable world is experiencing (in my experience... :))

Yes, it is definitely tricky to communicate this stuff! :)
Here is something from your last post:
All I know that there is a deep satisfaction when life is lived from “heart space awareness” (for lack of a better term) more and more and more.
Could it be that this satisfaction and living from „heart space awareness“ is interpreted as the same?
That’s a very interesting question.
“Satisfaction”implies a “fullness”, where nothing is missing. Yes, as a matter of fact, that seems to be the emerging experience when heart space awareness is sensingperceived :)
What possibly might change is the duration of living from heart space awareness with less and less distortion by conditioning.
How is it known if this what appears are distortions?
“distortions” are definitely an interpretation by mind, just thought. :)
LOOK if there is an entity which judges some things as distortions and other as reality...
No, there is no entity judging some things as distortions and others as reality…that would also be just concepts, just thoughts. Hahaha that’s funny :D !
Who makes claims on how life should appear? And why?

That all would be thought having thought reasons!

I can give you some thought reasons if you would like, but you probably wouldn’t! :D

barb
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby barb » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:10 pm

The word awareness could be a good concept for communication and also a good pointer.
But is this field of awareness more than an inference? Is this "awareness" separate from experiencing? Is there ever something other than experiencing?
I sat with this question for a while. It is really really tricky to put all of this into proper language. No, awareness is not separate from experiencing and yet it is not quite experiencing either, since it is the background out of which experiences emerge.( Or so it seems)
Is this true? Can this be known for sure?
It is different from experience in that it can be perceived by itself. What I mean by that is that it can be focused on outside of hearing, seeing, smelling, touching, tasting and thinking. It underlies every experience and yet it is not dependent on experience to be perceived. In my experience, when it is focused on, there is a very spacious and subtle blissful quality that emerges in which all experiences are directly experienced without any labeling by thought.
Yes, I know this spacious quality... But is this not that somehow perceived? Can you find the location from where this is perceived?
But the spaciousness quality seems to be constant.
As we try here to come really deep down to the ground of experience let us try to put all assumptions beside... :)
"Seems" means "I don't know"...
“Satisfaction”implies a “fullness”, where nothing is missing. Yes, as a matter of fact, that seems to be the emerging experience when heart space awareness is sensingperceived :)
What is missing if „heart space awareness“ is not perceived? And more important: What is it that senses this fullness? Is IT findable? Knowable?
“distortions” are definitely an interpretation by mind, just thought. :)
Yes :)
No, there is no entity judging some things as distortions and others as reality…that would also be just concepts, just thoughts. Hahaha that’s funny :D !
:D
I can give you some thought reasons if you would like, but you probably wouldn’t! :D
That depends on how much value you attach to what the thoughts tell ... ;))

Let's have a closer look at the nature of thought:

Sit quietly for a couple minutes, breath slowly and relax. Then begin watching gently the thoughts:

1. Where do thoughts come from and where do they go? Look curiously at the next thoughts.

2. Can you predict what thought will come next? Can you stop it if you don't like it? Can you remove a thought once it has appeared?

3. Can you decide NOT to think for a longer period? An if you decide, where comes the decision from?

4. Can you decide to think only beautiful and pleasant thoughts?

5. Think of a number between 1 and 100. Do you know what number will come before it appears?

6. Is the thought “I” a special thought? Or does it come from the same place as the others?

7. Can a thought think other thoughts?

8. Do you find someone who thinks or does it happen all by itself, without a thinker's control?


<3
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Leela17
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby Leela17 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:55 pm

The word awareness could be a good concept for communication and also a good pointer.
But is this field of awareness more than an inference? Is this "awareness" separate from experiencing? Is there ever something other than experiencing?
I sat with this question for a while. It is really really tricky to put all of this into proper language. No, awareness is not separate from experiencing and yet it is not quite experiencing either, since it is the background out of which experiences emerge.( Or so it seems)
Is this true? Can this be known for sure?
Like I said: “it seems”
No, it can not be known that awareness is the background out of which experiences emerge. “Background” isn’t really the right word, because it implies separation. ExperiencingPerceiving emerge from nowhere.
It is different from experience in that it can be perceived by itself. What I mean by that is that it can be focused on outside of hearing, seeing, smelling, touching, tasting and thinking. It underlies every experience and yet it is not dependent on experience to be perceived. In my experience, when it is focused on, there is a very spacious and subtle blissful quality that emerges in which all experiences are directly experienced without any labeling by thought.
Yes, I know this spacious quality... But is this not that somehow perceived? Can you find the location from where this is perceived?
Yes, this spacious quality is perceived. Senseperceived. No, there is no “location” from where it is perceived it is just perceived.
But the spaciousness quality seems to be constant.
As we try here to come really deep down to the ground of experience let us try to put all assumptions beside... :)
"Seems" means "I don't know”...
Spaciousness can be noticed or not noticed. When not noticed, it can’t be known for sure that it is there.
Satisfaction”implies a “fullness”, where nothing is missing. Yes, as a matter of fact, that seems to be the emerging experience when heart space awareness is sensingperceived :)
What is missing if „heart space awareness“ is not perceived? And more important: What is it that senses this fullness? Is IT findable? Knowable?
Nothing is missing. It is just a different experience.
And more important: What is it that senses this fullness? Is IT findable? Knowable?
No “thing” is sensing fullness.Fullness is sensed.
Where do thoughts come from and where do they go? Look curiously at the next thoughts.


from nowhere to nowhere
Can you predict what thought will come next? Can you stop it if you don't like it? Can you remove a thought once it has appeared?
No
Can you decide NOT to think for a longer period? An if you decide, where comes the decision from?

from nowhere
Can you decide to think only beautiful and pleasant thoughts?
No
Think of a number between 1 and 100. Do you know what number will come before it appears?
No
Is the thought “I” a special thought? Or does it come from the same place as the others?
same place
Can a thought think other thoughts?
No
Do you find someone who thinks or does it happen all by itself, without a thinker's control?
happens by itself

barb
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby barb » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:19 pm

Like I said: “it seems”
No, it can not be known that awareness is the background out of which experiences emerge. “Background” isn’t really the right word, because it implies separation. ExperiencingPerceiving emerge from nowhere.
Is there already the realization of the no-separation of all appearances?
Spaciousness can be noticed or not noticed. When not noticed, it can’t be known for sure that it is there.
Is there anything that can be known for sure?
Nothing is missing. It is just a different experience.
Is there still some search? Is there a belief or the longing that something should be other than it is?

happens by itself
Is there anything that happens not by itself?
Is there anything that you want to have a look at? Some supposed identifikation? Do you guess that there is some identifikation with thoughts or with „awareness“?


And as I meant in the last post: How important is thought content for you?

At this point I would like to come to another basic exercise to see what the difference is between the direct experience and what is interpreted into it.

Please place an apple (or another fruit) on a white surface in front of you and examine:

Where does seeing take place? Outside or inside?
Is there a border between outside and inside?
Does raw seeing look more like 2D or 3D, if you only actually see and think nothing?
Look closely: do you actually see an "apple" apart from a color?
How do you know the name of the color? Notice how thoughts call what is seen.
Does what you see have a name when you see it or is there just seeing something? Notice the gap between seeing and labeling.
Is there someone who sees and the seen, or is there just seeing?
Is there an "entity" that perceives a perceived object or is there simply perceiving?
What is the task of thoughts in this whole process of perception?
Do you think the experience or is there only experiencing?

I'm looking forward to your answers :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Leela17
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby Leela17 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:58 pm

Is there already the realization of the no-separation of all appearances?
yes
Spaciousness can be noticed or not noticed. When not noticed, it can’t be known for sure that it is there.
Is there anything that can be known for sure?
Isness
Nothing is missing. It is just a different experience.
Is there still some search? Is there a belief or the longing that something should be other than it is?
It is seen the everything happens by itself. It is seen that in moments ‘longing arising’ happens by itself. It is just a sensation and possible thoughts, nothing more. Then ‘shift of awareness’ happens by itself and then perception of 'satisfaction arising’ happens by itself. Thoughts can be there that say “ it feels so much better to see from heart space awareness”, but these are just thoughts, nothing more. Noticing hat everything feels more fluid is happening by itself too. That doesn’t mean it is more fluid.
happens by itself
Is there anything that happens not by itself?
no
Is there anything that you want to have a look at? Some supposed identifikation? Do you guess that there is some identifikation with thoughts or with „awareness“?
see above answer


And as I meant in the last post: How important is thought content for you?
is is seen as thought. There are moments of ‘being lost in thought’ and ‘belief in thought’ arising, but then seeing them as thoughts again is arising too. All happening by itself.
Where does seeing take place? Outside or inside?
from everywhere
Is there a border between outside and inside?
absolutely not
Does raw seeing look more like 2D or 3D, if you only actually see and think nothing?
No, it just looks like colors
Look closely: do you actually see an "apple" apart from a color?
No
How do you know the name of the color? Notice how thoughts call what is seen.
The name of the color is only known by thought.
Does what you see have a name when you see it or is there just seeing something? Notice the gap between seeing and labeling.
there is just seeing colors
Is there someone who sees and the seen, or is there just seeing?
just seeing
Is there an "entity" that perceives a perceived object or is there simply perceiving?
just perceiving
What is the task of thoughts in this whole process of perception?
labeling what is seen.
Do you think the experience or is there only experiencing?
only experiencing

barb
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby barb » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:10 pm

It is seen the everything happens by itself. It is seen that in moments ‘longing arising’ happens by itself. It is just a sensation and possible thoughts, nothing more. Then ‘shift of awareness’ happens by itself and then perception of 'satisfaction arising’ happens by itself. Thoughts can be there that say “ it feels so much better to see from heart space awareness”, but these are just thoughts, nothing more. Noticing hat everything feels more fluid is happening by itself too. That doesn’t mean it is more fluid.
Sounds great :)
is is seen as thought. There are moments of ‘being lost in thought’ and ‘belief in thought’ arising, but then seeing them as thoughts again is arising too. All happening by itself.
If there is only „Isness“ are then not thoughts also „Isness“ appearing as what we gave the label „thought“? If there is only undivided „Isness“ who or what could be lost in thought? Is this possible? Or are there sometimes just many thoughts and then an other thought comes in and says there was being lost in thought? In other words: Is being lost in thought not only a story told?
How true is it what thoughts are telling?
Try the following experiment: (It's very important to do it really and not only in mind... :))

Sit at home with eyes closed. In your mind, imagine going to the kitchen and getting a piece of fruit (be sure to choose something you already have in stock, as we will need if after).

Try to fully imagine actually going there, picking it up, the look of it, the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Then imagine biting into the fruit, tasting it, the texture, sweetness, sharpness, all the qualities. Imagine every aspect, make it as real as possible, and write the descriptions down..

Now open your eyes, and actually go to the kitchen. Take the piece of fruit out for real, and look at it, examine the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Now actually bite into the fruit and taste it, experience the texture, the sweetness, sharpness, etc.


Now look at your written words and imagine how you would describe the current experience.

Now ask yourself:

Do the descriptions have anything in common with the reality of actual experience?
Can a word, such as sweet or juicy, know anything about the reality of actual experience?
Can a thought ever know anything about experience in general?

Has a thought/word/imagination anything to do with direct experience? Can a thought anything know about truth/reality?
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Leela17
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby Leela17 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:29 pm

It is is seen as thought. There are moments of ‘being lost in thought’ and ‘belief in thought’ arising, but then seeing them as thoughts again is arising too. All happening by itself.
If there is only „Isness“ are then not thoughts also „Isness“ appearing as what we gave the label „thought“?
absolutely
If there is only undivided „Isness“ who or what could be lost in thought? Is this possible? Or are there sometimes just many thoughts and then an other thought comes in and says there was being lost in thought? In other words: Is being lost in thought not only a story told?
absolutely! Isness is whatever IS happening. Another word for it could also be perceiving to make it more clear for you.
I would like to clarify some of my answers from earlier.

When I said that perceiving heart space awareness ‘feels’ more fluid but but that it doesn’t mean it IS more fluid, I would like to clarify that either option consists of only sensation and that it is thought that categorizes these sensations as more or less anything. That’s clearly seen. So ‘pain’ doesn’t really exist nor does ‘pleasure’. They are both just sensations. Labeling them with thought implies that one is good or bad.
The same with “being lost in thoughts”. It was labeling a phenomena that consists of thoughts and then an additional thought about those thoughts. Inherent there is nothing ‘wrong’ with the phenomena. It merely arises and then it changes again all by itself.

And, here comes a big fat concept that I would like to express.
(To be clear, in case it is not clear, I am aware that what comes next are merely thoughts!!!! ) So what is following is ultimately totally meaningless: ;)

When nature is observed, there are many examples of life following what is pleasurable and life affirming. For example, a sunflower will follow the sun all day long or the caterpillar seems to break out of the cocoon to become a butterfly at the right time. ( I hope I don’t have to keep stressing that I am aware that a caterpillar nor a sunflower really exist that life is just doing it’s thing) to continue with my point. Life seems to move toward what feels pleasurable. And it is the same with life in these human embodiments. Ultimately pleasure and pain don’t exist and yet life seems to be drawn toward pleasure and not pain.
How true is it what thoughts are telling?
they are not true in the ultimate sense. But in life we communicate and in order to communicate thoughts are helpful at times.

Doing the exercise it is once again seen that imagination/thoughts don’t match the actual experience at all and even if some of the labeling of the experience would be using similar words, they don’t express at all the actual experience.
Do the descriptions have anything in common with the reality of actual experience?
no, not at all
Can a word, such as sweet or juicy, know anything about the reality of actual experience?
absolutely not
Can a thought ever know anything about experience in general?
no
Has a thought/word/imagination anything to do with direct experience? Can a thought anything know about truth/reality?
absolutely not

barb
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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby barb » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:57 am

When nature is observed, there are many examples of life following what is pleasurable and life affirming. For example, a sunflower will follow the sun all day long or the caterpillar seems to break out of the cocoon to become a butterfly at the right time. ( I hope I don’t have to keep stressing that I am aware that a caterpillar nor a sunflower really exist that life is just doing it’s thing) to continue with my point. Life seems to move toward what feels pleasurable. And it is the same with life in these human embodiments. Ultimately pleasure and pain don’t exist and yet life seems to be drawn toward pleasure and not pain.
Yes, there will always be pleasure and pain and push and pull, nothing wrong with that. It's just important to see the difference between real pleasure and pain and thought made ones... Therefore it's helpful to compare always thought content with what is here right now, to see that resistance to what is creates suffering, not pain...

Is there something that you want to explore? Would you like to do some more experiments? Do you have any questions?
If you look at your first answers at the opening thread has something changed?

For me you sound clear regarding the illusory separate "I"... :) Would you say you have seen 100 % clear that the separate „I“ is an illusion? If so would you like to have a look at the final questions?


Much love <3
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Leela17
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Re: Looking for support, giving support

Postby Leela17 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:03 pm

Yes, there will always be pleasure and pain and push and pull, nothing wrong with that. It's just important to see the difference between real pleasure and pain and thought made ones... Therefore it's helpful to compare always thought content with what is here right now, to see that resistance to what is creates suffering, not pain…
yes, well said.

Is there something that you want to explore?
Would you like to do some more experiments? Do you have any questions?
So ‘resistance to what is’ is life resisting life, right? Life believing a thought, which is life, about what is, which is life.
Then waking up from the illusion, is life seeing through the illusion of believing a thought or thoughts to be reality.
And although it is all part of the plot of the unfolding story, it appears that life is dreaming the dream of a separate self until it wakes up to itself.
If you look at your first answers at the opening thread has something changed?
I would say that at the beginning of the thread there was still a subtle belief that ‘I as life’ can control to be aware of truth vs illusion.
It is now more clearly seen that everything just happens by itself including thoughts about what is happening labeling what is happening as truth or illusion.
For me you sound clear regarding the illusory separate "I"... :) Would you say you have seen 100 % clear that the separate „I“ is an illusion?
yes
If so would you like to have a look at the final questions?
yes

Much love <3


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