Letting go

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Dion
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Letting go

Postby Dion » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:54 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The character called Dion doesn't exist.
Below or beyond that there is only awareness/consciousness.
As far as I can see, all that occurs within 'my(?)' consciousness is automatic. Nothing requires the collection of identified-with emotions and thoughts called Dion to act. Actions happens. All that comes and goes is a gift, a guide and a mirror.

What are you looking for at LU?
The truth. If nothing at all changes, I'm fine with that. Although I have an expectation of sorts, based on my own experience. When I'm in that state/place where I'm only seeing, seeing clearly, there is silence and peace, and a warm, creamy glow. That description doesn't do it justice, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I expect that I may experience that feeling more often, perhaps...? Although I don't know. I'm sick of listening to others and reading the words of others. I have to know for myself.
I expect freedom. For some reason, I think that if I find the truth, then I can let go.
I feel encumbered. I want to be free.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Some guidance in the right 'direction'. I expect someone who can see more than I can will keep me focused. To point me in the right direction. If nothing happens, then so be it. If I get closer to the Source, then great. I can't see beyond this. I don't know what will happen, but I'm drawn to it. I saw Ilona Ciunaite talk , and was moved in this direction. So, I'm following my heart.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
5 years in the Sri Chinmoy Centre, some small experience with Vipassana, a lifetime of seeking Truth. I hold occasional meditation groups for beginners at my house, and meditate regularly. I'm obsessed with this search for the truth.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Vivien
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Re: Letting go

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:07 am

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Dion
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Re: Letting go

Postby Dion » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:25 pm

Hello Vivien :)
Thank you for acting as my guide.

I’ll get right into it.
“How will life change?”
I expect my understanding of life will deepen. I will become more spacious... Right now, I don’t know if I really have any firm expectations. I’ve been becoming stiller and deeper and clearer and more spacious recently. I still have thoughts, and I occasionally get carried away with them, but it’s like they’ve had their potency removed. They seldom move me, and when they do, it’s very mild, and then my attention/awareness is drawn to them, and I see through them. It’s very nice, and also quite strangely ordinary. I also feel more energised. My energy is very even and smooth.
Sorry to rattle on. I guess I think that this experience will become a deeper and more pronounced version of what I’m experiencing now. But it might be something completely different, or nothing at all. I don’t know for sure.
I guess I’ve just answered question 2 and 3, haven’t I?
“What is missing?”
Nothing. I’ve been gifted faith. I have recently been able to rest in knowing that I’m provided for. I’m very lucky. Like what Saint Francis of Assisi said about the birds of the field not having to plan, or something ;) Haha. I’m paraphrasing terribly. I hope you know what I mean.
Everything is perfect. Whatever comes is a gift. An opportunity for me to see.

Thank you so much, Vivien.
I’m looking forward to hearing back from you.

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Vivien
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Re: Letting go

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:15 am

Hi,

Is it OK if I call you Dion? Or would you prefer some other name?

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link again how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
Right now, I don’t know if I really have any firm expectations.
I guess I think that this experience will become a deeper and more pronounced version of what I’m experiencing now. But it might be something completely different, or nothing at all. I don’t know for sure.
It’s very good that you don’t have any firm expectation. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
Although I have an expectation of sorts, based on my own experience. When I'm in that state/place where I'm only seeing, seeing clearly, there is silence and peace, and a warm, creamy glow. That description doesn't do it justice, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I expect that I may experience that feeling more often, perhaps...? Although I don't know.
Silence or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
I expect freedom. For some reason, I think that if I find the truth, then I can let go.
I feel encumbered. I want to be free.
And what is it that could gain freedom?
There is no self already.
There is no you that could be free.
The character called Dion doesn't exist.
Below or beyond that there is only awareness/consciousness.
What if awareness/consciousness is not what it seems like?

When it’s seen that a seer, taster, smeller, feeler, thinker, etc. cannot be found, the identification often goes to the seeming appearance of a self-existent, self-aware awareness, which is the knower of everything that appears.
So the identification with the body and the senses (feeler, hearer, thinker, etc) is replaced with a subtle form of identification, “I am that which is aware”…. So there is still some sort of separate entity which is aware and holds and knows all experience (object). And the identification with awareness is an excellent hiding place for the separate self. Since all the seeming realness of the separate self comes from the seeming realness of a standalone awareness. So as long as awareness is not seen for what it is, the belief of the separate self is not really seen through… it’s just hiding behind the notion of a standalone awareness. Do you see this?

This awareness is an ultimate illusion, it really seems very real. But nonetheless, it’s still an illusion. And for those who engaged in non-dual teachings this sometimes can be a serious stumbling block.

Can you entertain the possibility that awareness is not what it seems like?

Do you have a resistance to the notion that awareness might be an illusion too?
If yes, could you please explain why?
If I get closer to the Source, then great.
This above statement implies that there is me + Source.
And somehow I can get closer to it.
There is no me that could get closer to Source or anything.

What if there is none? What if Source is just another concept/idea?

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please read my above comments a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Dion
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Re: Letting go

Postby Dion » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:36 am

Hello, Vivien.
Yes, please call me Dion. Thank you ;)
Also, thank you for clarifying the desire for freedom, for me.
And what is it that could gain freedom?
There is no self already.
There is no you that could be free.
So as long as awareness is not seen for what it is, the belief of the separate self is not really seen through… it’s just hiding behind the notion of a standalone awareness. Do you see this?
Yes, I see. Yeah. The idea of an individual self is so sneaky! Thank you!
It's funny. A little bit of fear, or foreboding arises when I contemplate that. So there's nothing? Right?
You said;
This awareness is an ultimate illusion, it really seems very real. But nonetheless, it’s still an illusion.
I’m shocked. How can awareness be an illusion? I thought it was the ultimate indivisible constant. It seems everything I’ve read and seen suggests so, and my own experience seems to validate it.
Can you entertain the possibility that awareness is not what it seems like?
Absolutely. Yes.
Do you have a resistance to the notion that awareness might be an illusion too?
There is no resistance. Just excitement. I have to know what it is.
What if there is none? What if Source is just another concept/idea?
That's fine by me. Whether it is, or isn’t. I just want to see. This is incredible. I want to see.
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
Yes, I’m ready. Just point your finger and say jump, and I’ll ask, “how high?”

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Vivien
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Re: Letting go

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:00 am

Hi Dion,
I’m shocked. How can awareness be an illusion? I thought it was the ultimate indivisible constant. It seems everything I’ve read and seen suggests so, and my own experience seems to validate it.
I’m not saying that aware-ing is not happening, but rather that there is no stand-alone independent awareness. But it doesn’t matter what I or anybody else says, since you have to see/experience it for yourself. We will look at this later.

You forgot to reply to one of my questions. Here it is again:

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?
Yes, I’m ready. Just point your finger and say jump, and I’ll ask, “how high?”
Great! :) Let’s start it then.

Please contemplate the following:

What the ‘I’ is for you?

What is the experience of being you?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Dion
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Re: Letting go

Postby Dion » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:14 pm

Hello.
I see. I was going cross-eyed trying to work out how to see or sense beyond awareness.
For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?
Absolutely. Just looking. No reading. No watching. Got it.
What the ‘I’ is for you?
The ‘I’ for me is the centre of experience. A piece of the whole that stands separate from the whole. To be defended and maintained.
The source of all drama. The most compelling character in the story of ‘me’.
What is the experience of being you?
It used to be constant calculation. Planning, worrying, regretting, resisting and so on. As the years have gone by the experience has become progressively milder. Right now its very gentle, comparatively. I’ve recently had the experience of prolonged periods of space and ease, lightness, peace, etc.
There were and are periods of no-one and nothing. But I guess in retrospect, I had/have the belief that this is happening to ‘me’.
I have thoughts that present to me, and hook me with, little stories and aggrandisements about what kind of person I am, what I’ll become, how I’ll be seen by others.
They hook me briefly, I start to enjoy them, and then realize what is happening.
Then they fall away. But there is a need to be special. Admired. Adored and revered. It’s weird, because when I’ve been in situations where that need is fulfilled, the response is to resist and walk away. To reject the experience as unpleasant and undesirable.
My old and perhaps deepest belief was that I have no value. Unwanted. Unloved. Resented.
Over time, these beliefs have been falling away.
Here I am, prattling on about my feelings and psychology, and its occurred to me that I might have misinterpreted the question.
If I have, please re-focus me.
Thank you!

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Vivien
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Re: Letting go

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:15 am

Hi Dion,
There were and are periods of no-one and nothing. But I guess in retrospect, I had/have the belief that this is happening to ‘me’.
This is something important. So even no-one can be ‘owned’ by me!
Just as the seeming appearance of awareness.
I have thoughts that present to me, and hook me with, little stories and aggrandisements about what kind of person I am, what I’ll become, how I’ll be seen by others.
They hook me briefly, I start to enjoy them, and then realize what is happening.
Then they fall away. But there is a need to be special. Admired. Adored and revered.
“I have thoughts that present to me, and hook me with” – so let’s focus on this ‘I’ that thoughts are presented TO, and being hooked TO.

WHERE is this ‘I’ that thoughts are presented TO and hooked TO?

Actively search through the whole body from head to toe, and find the EXACT location of this me/I.


Look many-many times. Even if you can’t find it. Look more. Again and again. Be very thorough.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Dion
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Re: Letting go

Postby Dion » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:34 pm

Hi Vivien,
I sat for 40 minutes this morning scanning for something called ‘me’ and found nothing.
Then I read your post.
WHERE is this ‘I’ that thoughts are presented TO and hooked TO?

Actively search through the whole body from head to toe, and find the EXACT location of this me/I.
(Thank you!!)
I spent the day intermittently looking and looking. But found nothing.
A boiling kind of frustration arose at not being able to find anything. Then anger and short-temperedness, like in the old days.
I am and was expecting and wanting an ‘ah-ha’ moment. And not getting it.
I don’t get it. How can there be any feeling of ‘me’? There’s nothing there when I look. So how are thoughts, feelings and sensations being claimed? It doesn’t make any sense. Is awareness fixated on the idea of ‘me’, and then the idea reinforces itself by claiming regular themes, so as to construct an apparent identity?
It’s like looking into a deep, dark hole, and expecting something to emerge. But there’s nothing there. Just space.
When I look inside and can’t find anything, there’s an angry, clenched screaming feeling that arises. It feels connected to my seeking.
I’m going to keep looking and looking.
There’s a feeling of having hit a dead end.
I keep speaking of ‘my’ experience and then remembering that there’s nothing there, and then not being able to comment on it or speak about it, because it suddenly becomes a mystery.
Help!! :)

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Vivien
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Re: Letting go

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:43 am

Hi Dion,
A boiling kind of frustration arose at not being able to find anything. Then anger and short-temperedness, like in the old days.
I am and was expecting and wanting an ‘ah-ha’ moment. And not getting it.
I don’t get it. How can there be any feeling of ‘me’? There’s nothing there when I look. So how are thoughts, feelings and sensations being claimed? It doesn’t make any sense.
Ohhh… so you are expecting of the ‘feeling of me’ to go away?

What is it that is frustrated by the presence ‘feeling of me’?
Who/what is concerned whether there is ‘feeling of me’ or not?

Is awareness fixated on the idea of ‘me’, and then the idea reinforces itself by claiming regular themes, so as to construct an apparent identity?
This is a pure thought speculation. You are trying to figure this out by thinking.

So you are making the following claims:

- There is an awareness which has all sorts of abilities like fixating on the idea of ‘me’
- And this awareness is constructing an apparent entity

This awareness you are talking about seems to have super powers! :)

You are talking about this awareness as if it were an entity or an agency with all sorts of abilities.

Imagine that you are a child…

If I asked you as a child, point your finger to yourself, where would you point to?

As a child, would you talk about awareness?
As a child, would you have any idea about the concept of awareness?


Sometimes people talk about being Awareness when they're still looking for the self to "be something". But all that's happening there is that they're trying to gain a bigger, better self. Or a more spiritual self.

This is the opposite. This is about seeing that there is no separate self at all. There is just life, living. Everything is happening with no one in control, no one at the helm, and no possible way to be spirit or soul or awareness.

You have to do this inquire with simplicity. As if you were a child, who doesn’t know anything about how things are.

Look very carefully with each questions. Be careful not to reply with the automatic knee-jerk condition thought reactions. Rather try to get outside of the box of the learned, collected intellectual knowledge, and really investigate with the simplicity and curiosity of a child.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Dion
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Re: Letting go

Postby Dion » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:48 am

HI Vivien :)
Ohhh… so you are expecting of the ‘feeling of me’ to go away?
Yes, I was expecting the feeling of ‘me ‘ to go away.
When I saw your reply had come through, I had a feeling of resistance, and the thought ‘I’m tired!’. Then I asked, ‘Who is tired? How can I be tired, when there’s nothing there?’. My heart was beating hard, and my breath was coming fast.
When I read your reply, it hit me hard. It made me gasp, I think. Always the questions pushing, pushing, and forcing my eyes back to the point.
Then you asked;
If I asked you as a child, point your finger to yourself, where would you point to?
As a child, would you talk about awareness?
As a child, would you have any idea about the concept of awareness?
Boom! Mind whirling, energy moving here and there.
Then I had to leave for work.
I drove to work, sat down and started chatting with students, and noticed my attention was moving where it liked, and when it settled on something, it would become very clear and smooth and powerful.
On the way home, the same was true.
When I try to look for myself, I can’t even look. It’s like there’s nowhere to look.
I can’t direct my attention to look for ‘me’ When thoughts come, there’s nowhere for them to hold. They wander in to my attention, and then just fade away.
There’s still a feeling of locality, but no-one here. But this morning the feeling of locality was where I basically identified ‘me’ as being.
The idea of ‘Dion’ feels distant. I can’t even reach it. I can only vaguely recollect it.
Is this just an experience?
It’s weird and cool. But also really normal. Not flashy or magical or ‘woo-woo’ at all. When my attention settles on something, it goes really clear and quiet.
On the way home, driving, I felt the quiet, the silence, that everything is moving in. I saw it/felt it.
What is it that is frustrated by the presence ‘feeling of me’?
Who/what is concerned whether there is ‘feeling of me’ or not?
No more frustration. No-one is concerned, because there is no ‘me’.

Please let me know what’s going on.
Thank you so much.
Dion

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Vivien
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Re: Letting go

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:14 am

Hi Dion,
There’s still a feeling of locality, but no-one here. But this morning the feeling of locality was where I basically identified ‘me’ as being.
No more frustration. No-one is concerned, because there is no ‘me’.
Excellent :) you did a very nice looking.
Please let me know what’s going on.
You tell me :) I mean don’t try to figure this out intellectually.

Rather please tell me, how do you FEEL? How does it feel to see that there is no ‘me’?

Has there been a shift?

And what about being awareness with all of its powerful abilities?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Dion
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Re: Letting go

Postby Dion » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:46 am

Hello :)
Rather please tell me, how do you FEEL? How does it feel to see that there is no ‘me’?
Feels good. No different, but different. Thoughts still come. Just before a thought popped up, that enduced a mild panic response of being caught again. Then another thought as a response. But it all faded away, because there’s nothing here to claim it. Nothing here to feed it.
Still thoughts and feelings. All much the same, but milder because there’s nothing here to respond to these things.
Hmmm. It’s hard to say. How the heck is there no me? Hahaha. How amazing is that! But my response is just, ‘yeah, that’s good’.
It’s incredible and amazing, but mundane as well. There’s no difference, just no longer any ‘me ‘ here.
Has there been a shift?
Nothing has really changed. I’m blown away on one level, but it’s like there’s no response for being blown away. Haha! Crazy. And nothing at all.
And what about being awareness with all of its powerful abilities?
Heeheehee. Yes, ‘supernatural awareness’ just seems to be awareness. That’s all. Just ‘the seeing of’. No powers! Damn it!
Some powers would have been cool!

Please mail me some more. I want someone to talk to about it.
Thank you! :)
Being.

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Vivien
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Re: Letting go

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:08 am

Hi Dion,
Please mail me some more. I want someone to talk to about it.
Don’t worry, I won’t leave you until you feel ready. In the following days, I will ask you more questions to make sure that everything is super clear.
Heeheehee. Yes, ‘supernatural awareness’ just seems to be awareness. That’s all. Just ‘the seeing of’. No powers! Damn it!
So, is there the seen AND the awareness of the seen?
Awareness AND the aware-d?
Are there two ‘things’ there?

Is there an awareness separate from everything else?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Dion
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Re: Letting go

Postby Dion » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:57 am

Hi Vivien,
Thanks.
So, is there the seen AND the awareness of the seen?
Awareness AND the aware-d?
Are there two ‘things’ there?

Is there an awareness separate from everything else?
I haven’t really examined that. Let’s see..
There’s no separation. They’re 1 thing! That’s weird. There’s no defining line between anything, except in appearance. Even the awareness is somehow one with the seen. Weird.


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