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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:47 am

Hi Andrew,
There’s a feeling of “ahhhh”. But as you say no intellectual understanding.
WHAT is it that wants to understand or grasp it intellectually?

Look for this ONE.

Understanding it intellectually seems to be important to someone. But to whom/what?


Don’t just thing! But actively search for this one.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:35 am

Hi Vivien,
WHAT is it that wants to understand or grasp it intellectually?
This brings up some tension in the front of the head, and some heat in the chest, also something in the stomach at times.
Look for this ONE.
Doing my best!
Understanding it intellectually seems to be important to someone. But to whom/what?
Same reaction in the body as above. Mainly around the chest region at the moment. The tension in the temples I have for the past four or five days seems to be lessening. Actually, maybe not, just moving out from the left temple to both sides, so it feels a little less intense. The tension often seems to retreat when I approach it too closely.
Don’t just think! But actively search for this one.
I always do! Thinking comes after.

The question that came up this morning doing this was, "Where is the fear?" So, "Who wants fear?" or "Who thinks there should be fear?" which kind of leads to the same sensations in head, chest, and stomach.

Thank you,

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:24 am

Hi Andrew,
I always do! Thinking comes after.
It’s very good that you always look. It’s quite easy to fall back on thinking, and not looking afresh all the time.
The question that came up this morning doing this was, "Where is the fear?" So, "Who wants fear?" or "Who thinks there should be fear?"
Sorry it’s not clear for me. Is there a fear coming up? Or there is just an expectation that there should be fear, but there is none?

But what is fear anyway? What is fear itself?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
What is that feels threatened?
which kind of leads to the same sensations in head, chest, and stomach.
Are these sensations in the head, chest and stomach is you?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:50 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for the questions.
A: The question that came up this morning doing this was, "Where is the fear?" So, "Who wants fear?" or "Who thinks there should be fear?"
V: Sorry it’s not clear for me. Is there a fear coming up? Or there is just an expectation that there should be fear, but there is none?
Yes, it was an expectation, based on what I’d read. I can’t help wondering if I’m cleverly avoiding something.
But what is fear anyway? What is fear itself?
Oh that’s very hard not to answer intellectually. Looking for fear seems to stimulate my stomach area. Today a cyclist almost hit me and I had a rush of sensation through my chest. Body survival instinct I guess.
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
These two bring up tension/sensations in the head area.
What is that feels threatened?
This made me yawn for about 10 minutes on my drive home from work. (Or maybe I was just tired...)
Are these sensations in the head, chest and stomach you?
No, just sensations, tension. I’m becoming more aware of sensations throughout the whole body it seems. There’s an anxiety(?) in the lower chest/upper stomach area at the moment. Not really sure what that’s about.

The head/chest/stomach tension seem the most persistent. Usually the sensations pass fairly quickly, but these ones have been hanging around for a week or so. They move/change very slowly.

Anyway, thanks as always for your time. I keep hoping (expectation) to find the thread that will unravel this all. Oh well. Good night.

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:23 am

Hi Andrew,

Here is what you wrote to me a few days ago.
V: WHAT is it that wants to understand or grasp it intellectually?
A: This brings up some tension in the front of the head, and some heat in the chest, also something in the stomach at times.
V: Understanding it intellectually seems to be important to someone. But to whom/what?
A: Same reaction in the body as above. Mainly around the chest region at the moment. The tension in the temples I have for the past four or five days seems to be lessening. Actually, maybe not, just moving out from the left temple to both sides, so it feels a little less intense. The tension often seems to retreat when I approach it too closely.
Please read the above quotes again and see that you are not answering my questions.

You are writing down the bodily sensations you have after reading the question, but you don’t write anything about the question itself.

So I would like you to go back to these questions, and LOOK FOR and WRITE about the ME that wants to understand it intellectually.

And you did the same with your last replies.
V: What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
A: These two bring up tension/sensations in the head area.
You wrote down the sensations that arose after reading the questions, but you didn’t look and say anything about the me/self that needs protection.
V: What is that feels threatened?
A: This made me yawn for about 10 minutes on my drive home from work. (Or maybe I was just tired...)
Same here. It’s not about asking the questions and waiting for something to happen. And if only yawning happen, then write about yawning. No.

You have to ACTIVELY SEARCH for the me/self that could feel threatened.

You are putting way too much attention on the sensations, and thus you avoid looking for the most important part: the self/me. Can you see this?

Is there a resistance to look for the self/me?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:07 pm

Hi Vivien,
WHAT is it that wants to understand or grasp it intellectually?
Me does. But all I find is sensations when I look for me. I know the sensations are not me. But that’s where the questions lead.
Understanding it intellectually seems to be important to someone. But to whom/what?
Once again, me me me. And once again nothing but sensations when looked for.
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
I can’t find anything. I assume itself or the beliefs/tensions that maintain itself.
You wrote down the sensations that arose after reading the questions, but you didn’t look and say anything about the me/self that needs protection.
What is that feels threatened?
Me does.
You have to ACTIVELY SEARCH for the me/self that could feel threatened.
OK. I might need some clarification here. Generally I ask a question and observe what comes up, usually sensations. I then observe the sensation until it shifts, retreats/fades, or I become distracted. When I realize that I repeat the question and repeat the process. How can I make this more active?
You are putting way too much attention on the sensations, and thus you avoid looking for the most important part: the self/me. Can you see this?
Yes. Thank you. Got it. I need to remind myself of this daily. I seem to be losing focus. I do realize they aren’t important, “I” just wanted to be clear I was looking, not just thinking.
Is there a resistance to look for the self/me?
Absolutely, in the stomach From the feel of it. I’ve been avoiding looking there it appears. So I’ll focus there now.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:12 am

Hi Andrew,
OK. I might need some clarification here. Generally I ask a question and observe what comes up, usually sensations. I then observe the sensation until it shifts, retreats/fades, or I become distracted. When I realize that I repeat the question and repeat the process. How can I make this more active?
It's not enough to ask the questions, and then wait for an answer to come. Because whatever answer comes, that is just a thought, or a learned belief.

1. First you ask the question, like ‘where is the self?”

2. Next, you search through the whole body from head to toe for the self. You search as if you were trying to find your lost keys. Paying particular attention to the whole head and the chest.
Is the self inside the chest somewhere?
Or in the neck, throat area?
Or maybe inside the head? Where exactly? In the eyes? Or behind the eyes? Or in the middle of the head? Or maybe closer to the back of the scull? Where exactly? You have to find the EXACT spot/location where the me/I resides.

3. After looking, you use the words that best describes what has been seen, without adding anything extra.


V: WHAT is it that wants to understand or grasp it intellectually?
A: Me does. But all I find is sensations when I look for me. I know the sensations are not me. But that’s where the questions lead.
You are not the sensations, all right.
But what are you then?
V: Understanding it intellectually seems to be important to someone. But to whom/what?
A: Once again, me me me. And once again nothing but sensations when looked for.
Can you REALLY see this?

Has this really sunk in? That there is only a sensation, but not a me?

Can a sensation want to understand things intellectually?
If not, WHAT is it that wants it?
WHERE is the wanter itself?
V: Is there a resistance to look for the self/me?
A: Absolutely, in the stomach From the feel of it. I’ve been avoiding looking there it appears. So I’ll focus there now.
Please tell me about this resistance. Not about the sensations, but about the fearful story that comes with it.

What would happen if it were seen that there is no self, no thinker, no chooser, no decider, no manager, nothing in charge and life just flowing freely as one movement?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:31 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for the clarification of active looking. It was very helpful. I’ve spent the the last two hours looking for the self and the other questions. It seems to permeate the head, like a cloud, but there is a focus around the forehead. I haven’t found the exact spot yet.
You are not the sensations, all right.
But what are you then?
I’m not sure. I’m coming back to the awareness that percieves sensations.
V: Understanding it intellectually seems to be important to someone. But to whom/what?
A: Once again, me me me. And once again nothing but sensations when looked for.
Can you REALLY see this?
i can see it and understand it at the time, but I don’t think I really see/get it.
Has this really sunk in? That there is only a sensation, but not a me?
Not yet, no.
Can a sensation want to understand things intellectually?
If not, WHAT is it that wants it?
The sensations are just sensations, so no. So it’s the self in some form.
WHERE is the wanter itself?
In the head and stomach. The stomach wants and the stomach is afraid. It’s not afraid of anything in particular. It says “just afraid”. The was an image of something suddenly springing up, and another of a dark figure leaning over my shoulder. It seemed defensive.
V: Is there a resistance to look for the self?
A: Absolutely, in the stomach From the feel of it. I’ve been avoiding looking there it appears. So I’ll focus there now. me?
Please tell me about this resistance. Not about the sensations, but about the fearful story that comes with it.
My self has been very good about distracting me into doing other things than focus on itself these past few days. It’s been an extra effort to make time to really look. There’s not so much of a story that I can tell. Just fear.
What would happen if it were seen that there is no self, no thinker, no chooser, no decider, no manager, nothing in charge and life just flowing freely as one movement?
“Nothing would happen.” Is the thought that first came. My self is very important it seems to believe or wants someone to believe.

I’ll keep looking for the exact spot. It seems to be the head, but sometimes the chest, and sometimes the stomach light up, so maybe it’s hiding in several places.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:36 pm

Hi Andrew,
In the head and stomach. The stomach wants and the stomach is afraid. It’s not afraid of anything in particular. It says “just afraid”. The was an image of something suddenly springing up, and another of a dark figure leaning over my shoulder. It seemed defensive.
Are you sure that the stomach wants and the stomach is afraid?
Do you find fear in the stomach or you find only sensations?
Do you find ‘want’ in the stomach, or you find only sensations?
Is there anything else in the stomach other than sensation?
I’ll keep looking for the exact spot. It seems to be the head, but sometimes the chest, and sometimes the stomach light up, so maybe it’s hiding in several places.
Remember, that we are searching for a REAL TANGIBLE self.

Can you find your-SELF anywhere?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:56 am

Hi Vivien,
Are you sure that the stomach wants and the stomach is afraid?
No. That is the label that’s been given to the sensation.
Do you find fear in the stomach or you find only sensations?
Just sensations.
Do you find ‘want’ in the stomach, or you find only sensations?
Just sensations.
Is there anything else in the stomach other than sensation?
Not that I can find.
A: I’ll keep looking for the exact spot. It seems to be the head, but sometimes the chest, and sometimes the stomach light up, so maybe it’s hiding in several places.
V:Remember, that we are searching for a REAL TANGIBLE self.
Right. Well, I intellectually “understand” that he self’s a belief/an idea (though I seem to forget that surprisingly often), but the belief is a strong one. It doesn’t take the idea that it’s a belief seriously. The only thing I can find are sensations, and then when it’s recognized as a sensation, another one will present itself, or something feels I should just look deeper/closer. And the cycle repeats.
Can you find your-SELF anywhere?
No! Not... yet. But it’s got to be here somewhere. Right? I kind of have the question now, of "Who would even seek the self?" It's a bit like a dog chasing it's tail.

Anyway, thank you. More active looking to be done.

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:44 am

Hi Andrew,
V: Can you find your-SELF anywhere?
A: No! Not... yet. But it’s got to be here somewhere. Right? I kind of have the question now, of "Who would even seek the self?" It's a bit like a dog chasing it's tail.
HOW do you know that the self should be there somewhere?

Is there an experience of a self right here now?

Has there EVER been an experience of a self? Not thoughts and ideas about a self, but an ACTUAL REAL self.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:41 pm

Hi Vivien,
HOW do you know that the self should be there somewhere?
Well, I don’t really. That’s just an idea. Or a feeling there should be that I can’t pin down.
Is there an experience of a self right here now?
There are sensations and the idea that there is a self. But I have no real idea what a self should feel like.
Has there EVER been an experience of a self? Not thoughts and ideas about a self, but an ACTUAL REAL self.
I only have memories to call upon. And as I said, I have no idea what a self feels like. The idea of me seems to be connected to the memories. Or it ties them together. Whether it was ACTUALLY REAL I can’t say.

Most of the sensations to do with Me/I/Self are centered in the chest at the moment.

Thank you for the questions,

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:01 am

Hi Andrew,
V: HOW do you know that the self should be there somewhere?
A: Well, I don’t really. That’s just an idea. Or a feeling there should be that I can’t pin down.
You say that there is a FEELING that there should be a self somewhere.
Please focus on this FEELING. FEEL it.

Does the raw sensation itself suggest in any way that ‘there should be a self somewhere’?
What is it exactly that is suggesting that ‘there should be a self somewhere’?
What is making this assumption?
Most of the sensations to do with Me/I/Self are centered in the chest at the moment.
Spend as much time as possible focusing on this sensation in the chest (about hundred times, even if just for 10-30 seconds each).
FEEL this sensation in the chest.

Does the raw sensation itself suggest in any way that this sensation is me/I/self?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:52 am

Hi Vivien,

Thanks as always for your time. I really appreciate this.

I’ll need an extra day (or two) to get to a hundred.

Will write tomorrow.

Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:13 pm

All right. Thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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