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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:47 pm

Hi Andrew,
V: Is there an experience of an observer?
A: Yes. But the observer has the same quality as far as I can tell as "awareness" or the "I" when sought after. Which makes me wonder how observation is possible at all, so I'm going to "observe" this more.
You say that there is experience of an observer.

Please tell me how this observer/awareness/I is experienced. By which of the five senses?

Can the observer be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, touched? If not, then how is it experienced?

Is it possible to experience anything other than with the 5 senses?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:04 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for the questions.
Please tell me how this observer/awareness/I is experienced. By which of the five senses?
I connect it most strongly with sight. When the eyes are open there is the experience of a "see"er. When they close there is the continuing sense of this "see"er.
Can the observer be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, touched? If not, then how is it experienced?
It seems to be a combination of feeling (tension) and sight. I noticed this morning that even though the eyes were closed, they continued to see (even though it was just darkness), I've always connected this with being inside my head/thoughts/self. So the "observer/awareness/I" is focused around the eyes or wherever the sense of sight is experienced in the head.
Is it possible to experience anything other than with the 5 senses?
A sense of balance. Maybe a sense of humor? But in my experience to date, no.

Thank you!

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:19 am

Hi Andrew,
It seems to be a combination of feeling (tension) and sight. I noticed this morning that even though the eyes were closed, they continued to see (even though it was just darkness), I've always connected this with being inside my head/thoughts/self. So the "observer/awareness/I" is focused around the eyes or wherever the sense of sight is experienced in the head.
Then let’s look for the assumed seer.

Conventionally it is said that "I see' and the assumption is that it is 'eyes' that are the body that is 'me' that is doing the seeing.

Look at an object in front of you.

So, right now notice this experience of seeing. What's it actually like?
Is there a 'me' doing seeing?
Is there an experience of eyes seeing or the body seeing?
Or is it that seeing just happens without a someone making it happen?


Now please repeat the same exercise but with closed eyes.

Seeing is always on, even with closed eyes. There are some darker colors seen.
So the seen (color) is there. But is there an actual ‘me’ doing seeing?
Is there an experience of eyes seeing or the body seeing?
Or is seeing just happens without a someone making it happen?


Please repeat this exercise both with open and close eyes many times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:09 am

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for the questions.
Look at an object in front of you.

So, right now notice this experience of seeing. What's it actually like?
It’s quite nice, in its purest form, colors and shapes.
Is there a 'me' doing seeing?
No, it happens by itself.
Is there an experience of eyes seeing or the body seeing?
Or is it that seeing just happens without a someone making it happen?
If the eyes are open they see, there’s no judgement or labeling attached to what they see. (Though everything I’ve look has been fairly neutral.)
Now please repeat the same exercise but with closed eyes.

Seeing is always on, even with closed eyes. There are some darker colors seen.
So the seen (color) is there. But is there an actual ‘me’ doing seeing?
No, seeing just happens. But when I close my eyes. There’s a “voice” that kind becomes active or more active or easier to be aware of.
Is there an experience of eyes seeing or the body seeing?
Yes, the eyes continue to do what they do.
Or is seeing just happens without a someone making it happen?
I can’t find someone doing seeing. It just appears to be a function in the same way as feeling happens when something is touched.

My “mind” has shifted me to the idea of attention. When I do one of the exercises you suggest. There is a directing of attention or focus to look (or so it seems). Is this just the self giving itself another label. Or is attention an actual faculty?

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:19 am

Hi Andrew,
If the eyes are open they see,
But HOW do you know that the eyes are seeing? Just because you learned in school?
What is the experience of seeing done by the eyes?
What is the experience of the eyes?

My “mind” has shifted me to the idea of attention. When I do one of the exercises you suggest. There is a directing of attention or focus to look (or so it seems). Is this just the self giving itself another label. Or is attention an actual faculty?
Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?


Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:21 pm

Hi Vivien,

Apologies for the delay. A busy few days and a lot of questions to work through (not complaining), I just want to make sure they’ve been given a thorough look at.
If the eyes are open they see,
But HOW do you know that the eyes are seeing?
Well when they are open I see stuff, and when I close my eyelids I stop seeing things. I don’t think I’m assuming they are responsible for visual information am I? It doesn’t seem like an unreasonable connection to make.
Just because you it learned in school?
Something I learned in school would be how the cones in the back of the eyeballs convert light into electrical impulses that are then decoded by the brain. I assume most humans connect eyes with seeing on some level before they can speak.
What is the experience of seeing done by the eyes?
I’m not sure. I’m actually not sure if I understand the question properly. As far as I can tell they don’t experience anything. They’re a bit like windows.
What is the experience of the eyes?
Once again, I’m not sure I really understand the question. I sometimes feel pressure on the tops of my eyeballs, but the eyes themselves seem fairly “neutral”. I don’t really have an experience with them.
Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.
It skitters about all over the place.
Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or does it move by itself?
It appears to move to whatever sound, image, feeling, memory or thought comes its way.
Is there a focus-er?
Not that I can find.
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
No, it just drifts to whatever catches its attention most.
What moves attention?
Nothing that I can perceive. It appears to respond to stimulus.
Is thought in control of attention?
No, it’s just another thing to focus on. It appears to focus attention in a certain direction for a time. But not really control it.

Thank you for your time and the questions. I really appreciate this.

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:23 am

Hi Andrew,
Well when they are open I see stuff, and when I close my eyelids I stop seeing things. I don’t think I’m assuming they are responsible for visual information am I? It doesn’t seem like an unreasonable connection to make.
This reply does not come from looking at experience. This reply is purely conceptual.
Something I learned in school would be how the cones in the back of the eyeballs convert light into electrical impulses that are then decoded by the brain. I assume most humans connect eyes with seeing on some level before they can speak.
More concepts.

The task is not to THINK this through, but rather to SEE what is ACTUALLY happening in EXPERIENCE.
V: What is the experience of seeing done by the eyes?
A: ’m not sure. I’m actually not sure if I understand the question properly. As far as I can tell they don’t experience anything. They’re a bit like windows.
Saying the eyes are like windows – are just more concepts. Just thought speculations.

Experience is: seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, feeling, tasting.

So you make the claim (the everyday belief) that seeing is done by the eyes.
What we are doing here is to check if everyday concepts and assumptions are IN LINE with experience or not.

And most of the time they don’t.
V: What is the experience of the eyes?
A: Once again, I’m not sure I really understand the question. I sometimes feel pressure on the tops of my eyeballs, but the eyes themselves seem fairly “neutral”. I don’t really have an experience with them.
When I ask, what is the experience of the eyes, the questions is:

How the eyes themselves are experienced?
Is the experience of the eyes a sound, a smell, a taste, color, or a sensation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:10 pm

Hi Vivien,
Experience is: seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, feeling, tasting.
Thanks for the clarification. When I said the eyes were like glass or that I didn’t experience anything, that was what I was feeling at the time. But I went back and found a subtle sensation and followed from there.
How the eyes themselves are experienced?
Is the experience of the eyes a sound, a smell, a taste, color, or a sensation?
It’s a sensation. A very subtle one. Initially it was easier to sense with my eyes closed, but since starting it’s become more noticeable and I can sense it with my eyes open now. I can feel mainly tension around the eyes radiating out through the head, sometimes to the back of the neck. Occasionally there is a feeling of vibration or pulsing.

Thank you,

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:42 am

Hi Andrew,

OK. So the eyes are nothing else than sensations.

Look at the display before you.
Put the attention of the sensation, labelled by thought as ‘eyes’.

Does this sensation SEE?

Is this sensation is the SEER?

Is there a SEER at all?
Or there is just the SEEN + the sensation labelled ‘eyes’?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:20 pm

Good morning Vivien,
Put the attention of the sensation, labelled by thought as ‘eyes’.

Does this sensation SEE?
No. It’s just a sensation, or a variety of sensations.
Is this sensation the SEER?
No. Just sensation.
Is there a SEER at all?
I’m not sure. There’s still the recognition/awareness that things are being seen. Looking at that (of course) reveals more sensations. And the mind is always waiting to slap labels on things.
Or there is just the SEEN + the sensation labelled ‘eyes’?
There is the SEEN and the sensation labeled ‘eyes’ and the sensation(s) of ‘ME! I am here!”

So I’m chasing those down.

Thank you!

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:34 pm

Hi Andrew,
V: Is there a SEER at all?
A: I’m not sure. There’s still the recognition/awareness that things are being seen. Looking at that (of course) reveals more sensations. And the mind is always waiting to slap labels on things.
Yes, there is a recognition of what is seen.
But the question is:

Is there a recognizER?
Look for the recognizer. WHERE is it? – find it
There is the SEEN and the sensation labeled ‘eyes’ and the sensation(s) of ‘ME! I am here!”
Sensations of ME? Are you sure that those sensations are ME?

How is it known that those sensations are ME?

Is the ME a sensation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:41 am

Hi Vivien,
Is there a recognizER?
Look for the recognizer. WHERE is it? – find it
Not a recognizER that I can find. Just an acute tension/pain in the left temple.
Sensations of ME? Are you sure that those sensations are ME?
There's still a sense of Me; of Being. But it also resolves itself into the pain in the left temple at the moment.
How is it known that those sensations are ME?
Well, it's not "known". There was a little brain voice claiming so the other day.
Is the ME a sensation?
As far as I can tell. Like all the other sensations. I see the pattern. It seems like the "self" has 1001 labels for itself.

Thanks for your guidance.

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:00 am

Hi Andrew,
V: Sensations of ME? Are you sure that those sensations are ME?
A: There's still a sense of Me; of Being. But it also resolves itself into the pain in the left temple at the moment.
Please examine this question carefully:
Do you expect the ‘sense of me’ to go away?
V: How is it known that those sensations are ME?
A: Well, it's not "known". There was a little brain voice claiming so the other day.
What is this ‘little brain voice’?

Is this ‘little brain voice’ something real?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:33 am

Hi Vivien,
Please examine this question carefully:
Do you expect the ‘sense of me’ to go away?
Yes, there was that expectation. I understand that it won’t. “Not be identified with” or “taken to be real” is the current expectation.
What is this ‘little brain voice’?
The same voice I use to ask myself these questions. I’m not sure where it comes from. The mind I assume. So just a reaction to whatever is happening.
Is this ‘little brain voice’ something real?
I think so. As real as any thought is. But I don’t think what it says is necessarily true.

Thank you,

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:11 am

Hi Andrew,
Yes, there was that expectation. I understand that it won’t. “Not be identified with” or “taken to be real” is the current expectation.
This is still not how it will be. Just because it will be seen/recognized that the self is just an illusion, it doesn’t mean that identification with it (taking it to be real) would never happen again. However, upon each looking, it will be clear that actually nothing there.
The same voice I use to ask myself these questions. I’m not sure where it comes from. The mind I assume. So just a reaction to whatever is happening.
Assuming is not enough. We need FACTS, not assumptions.
I think so. As real as any thought is. But I don’t think what it says is necessarily true.
Again, you are thinking about the questions, and not looking.

With thinking about it, you cannot get anywhere. You have to ACTUALLY CHECK it in EXPERIENCE if it’s a real thing or not.

We are only ever looking for facts of reality, but not knowledge about reality.

So first, you have to be able to distinguish between experience (reality) and fiction/fantasy (thoughts).
This is essential.

We have to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We have to go down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

You don’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything. You have see with eyes of a child.

Imagine, that you are a five-year old child, and I am your five-year old friend. We are playing together in the kindergarten. Do you get the picture? :)

So while we are playing, you are trying to explain to me that how you know that the cup in your hands is real.

So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?

And how do you know that a ghost is not real?


If the question and resulting answer seems too simplistic, good. It's leading us where we need to go.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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