Ready to Go

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:08 am

Hi Andrew,
I've been trying for a week to see this clearly, and I kind of do. But there is some belief around feeling being "mine", so there must be someone here.
Lots of things being labelled as ‘mine’. So let’s look into this.

We often say ‘MY body’ or ‘MY feelings’– so what is it that owns the feelings?
And how do you know that the feeling is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY feeling’?

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Andrew owns the clothes?
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?

Does the label ‘my’ owns the body or the feelings?
Does the label/word/thought Andrew owns the feelings?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:08 pm

Hi Vivien,
We often say ‘MY body’ or ‘MY feelings’– so what is it that owns the feelings?
"Here" does, the body.
And how do you know that the feeling is owned?
It's the body's feeling. It moves with the body.
What is it that claims ‘MY feeling’?
Thoughts do.
You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
Just an idea.
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
Just ideas.
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
Ideas and memories about them.
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, own the clothes?
No. The voice retreats from that question.
Do thoughts own the clothes?
No.
Does the thought ‘mine’ own the clothes?
Yes. It's the only thing that can.
Does word/thought Andrew own the clothes?
No. That's just a label.
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?
No.
Does the label ‘my’ own the body or the feelings?
No.
Does the label/word/thought Andrew own the feelings?
No. I can't see a connection.

Thank you,

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:44 am

Hi Andrew,
V: We often say ‘MY body’ or ‘MY feelings’– so what is it that owns the feelings?
A: "Here" does, the body.
It's the body's feeling. It moves with the body.
So there are feelings + the body?
Is there anything else to the body than feelings / sensations?

How could a sensation (labelled ‘body’) FEEL another sensation (labelled ‘feelings’)?

Find the body and find the feelings.
Are the feelings inside another feeling called body?

V: What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
V: Just ideas.
Ideas? An idea (thought) can own anything?
V: Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, own the clothes?
A: No. The voice retreats from that question.
So you are consulting with the voice-in-the-head?
Are you in communication with him?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:56 am

Hi Vivien,
So there are feelings + the body?
Good point. There are feelings.
Is there anything else to the body than feelings / sensations?
Not in direct experience.
How could a sensation (labelled ‘body’) FEEL another sensation (labelled ‘feelings’)?
It can't. There are just feelings in a common space.
Find the body and find the feelings.
Are the feelings inside another feeling called body?
No. The feelings are in a space. There is a tendency for them to all be distanced in space in relation to the head.
V: What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
A: Just ideas.
Ideas? An idea (thought) can own anything?
No. Just that the idea says "mine". It's just an idea, not real.
V: Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, own the clothes?
A: No. The voice retreats from that question.
So you are consulting with the voice-in-the-head?
No, just whenever the question was asked, the voice couldn't be heard. There was just silence/space.
Are you in communication with him?
No. He immediately said "yes", which is nature to offer commentary on everything. But he's really just talking to himself. Attention is paid (or not) to the commentary.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:17 am

Hi Andrew,
No, just whenever the question was asked, the voice couldn't be heard. There was just silence/space.
And what or who is hearing the voice?
No. He immediately said "yes", which is nature to offer commentary on everything. But he's really just talking to himself.
But WHO is talking to himself?

Please tell me in detail, what do you do exactly when you look? How do you look?

And how often do you look in a day?
And how many times in a day?

Has there anything changed since restarting out conversation?

What happens in your everyday life when you don’t look?


Please share what is happening in your daily life. You are giving just short replies, and nothing really what happens in your daily life. I’m just giving you questions based on the limited words you share, but really I’m just shooting in blind. Something is clearly off with your investigation. So please share more so I can have a better understanding what is happening.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:01 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you as always. For some reason, I'm feeling more driven at the moment, so I hope that helps.

A: No, just whenever the question was asked, the voice couldn't be heard. There was just silence/space.
V: And what or who is hearing the voice?
Just awareness. Which appears mainly centered in my head.
No. He immediately said "yes", which is his nature to offer commentary on everything. But he's really just talking to himself.
But WHO is talking to himself?
I am. The mind. There has been an idea popping up the last few days around not being able to see digestion, but seeing the results. So why should the mind be any different? Why would I be able to perceive the "I/self" or the absence of the "I/self" if I can't perceive digestion?
Please tell me in detail, what do you do exactly when you look? How do you look?
I read a question. If I'm home and not busy, I close my eyes and see if the mind throws up anything. For example, "What or who is hearing the voice?" It might say, "I am" or nothing. If it says, "I am" I'll ask, "so where is 'I'?" then I'll look at whatever sensation immediately presents itself. Recognize that it's just a sensation and let it go, then move to the next one (if there is one), then start at the toes and move up through the body looking for "I" until I get back to the head. There's nothing tangible except feelings. But as I mentioned above I can't see the stomach digesting, so some part is questioning why I would be able to see the mind "selfing".
If I'm out of home and moving (generally cycling), I'll ask the question and ponder it in relation to what's happening as I move to where I'm going. When I'm working I'm generally only focused on that.
And how often do you look in a day?
Whenever I'm not working or distracting myself - I've just realized the past few days that I distract myself a lot. I used to read or watch videos sometimes on YouTube about "seeking" before starting this inquiry. But I don't do that anymore, so I tend to distract myself with my hobby instead, which is music and endlessly distracting.
And how many times in a day?
Always in the morning, and in the evening before sleep. Because I teach, usually 6-7 or more hours a day, I don't have time while working to actively look. Throughout the day, of my own volition maybe 5 times. When using a 10-minute timer (which I haven't done for a while) maybe 20-30 times.
Has there anything changed since restarting out conversation?
Definitely, though subtle. I'm not in the same space I was when I stopped last time (there was more clarity and space then). There is less clarity now. But, for example, the other day some students knocked over a cup of tea in class, and while in the past this may have caused agitation, there wasn't any. While cycling I crossed a street without seeing a taxi that would have hit me if I'd been a few seconds slower, there was also a strange lack of reaction - which is unusual. Generally, I feel quite relaxed with what is happening - less reactive. Things that used to always irritate in the past, generally don't. When teaching, students who are being noisy or distracting don't bother "me", so I can respond to the situation from a "calm" space. It "feels/seems" like there is less "me" to offend/upset. But there is still a sense of a separate self.
What happens in your everyday life when you don’t look?
Work happens most days, family, hobby, sometimes seeing friends. Like I said, I distract myself a lot with my hobby. But there has been a shift the last few days to put it aside and focus.

Thank you as always for your guidance. If there is some way to kick me through the gate, or a cliff to jump off, I'm ready to do that.

Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:31 am

Hi Andrew,
If there is some way to kick me through the gate, or a cliff to jump off, I'm ready to do that.
There is a way, but you have to do it. And that is that you put aside all thinking about this topic, and you only focus what is present here now, in this very moment.
There has been an idea popping up the last few days around not being able to see digestion, but seeing the results. So why should the mind be any different? Why would I be able to perceive the "I/self" or the absence of the "I/self" if I can't perceive digestion?
There is a huge difference between the two.

If you cut up the body, you can see the inner organs. You can see the stomach, intestines, bowels, etc. In essence, you can see flesh and blood.

But if you cut a head, can you see a mind?
Or you can only see flesh and blood and bones and ligaments?
Can you ever be able to find a though in an open scull?


If you could look into an open scull, you could see the tissue, called ‘brain’. You can even touch it.

But can you EVER be able to OBSERVE or EXPERIENCE in any way that this soft tissue is thinking?
Can you find a real entity INSIDE the soft tissue of brain, thinking and orchestrating bodily functions, like digestion?
Can you find an Andrew sitting inside the bloody interior of a bony scull?


If you are not afraid of seeing images of a human brain, I suggest googling it, and actually look at a picture of an open scull while investigating the above questions. Please don’t just make it into a thought experiment.
I am. The mind.
How do you know that you are the mind?
Do you experience yourself being a mind, the mind you cannot find in an open brain?

What is the mind anyway?


I’m not asking for theories, but the direct and immediate experience of mind here now, in this very moment.

Where is the mind in this very moment as you observe it?
How big it is? What color? What shape it has? What is its texture? Does it have a smell? Does it have a sound?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:05 am

Hi Vivien,
If there is some way to kick me through the gate, or a cliff to jump off, I'm ready to do that.
There is a way, but you have to do it. And that is that you put aside all thinking about this topic, and you only focus what is present here now, in this very moment.
I'll do my best.
If you cut up the body, you can see the inner organs. You can see the stomach, intestines, bowels, etc. In essence, you can see flesh and blood.

But if you cut a head, can you see a mind?
Or can you only see flesh and blood and bones and ligaments?
Can you ever be able to find a thought in an open scull?
No. But this train of questioning really just points toward more thinking. My mind says, well of course not, because the mind's functioning in the brain wouldn't be visibly perceivable anyway.
If you could look into an open scull, you could see the tissue, called ‘brain’. You can even touch it.

But would you EVER be able to OBSERVE or EXPERIENCE in any way that this soft tissue is thinking?
No.
Can you find a real entity INSIDE the soft tissue of brain, thinking and orchestrating bodily functions, like digestion?
No.
Can you find an Andrew sitting inside the bloody interior of a bony scull?
No, it's just an empty space mostly.
V: But WHO is talking to himself?
A: I am. The mind.
How do you know that you are the mind?
The mind says "I am". I don't "know" that I'm the mind, it's just what it says. Like it's standing in front of a mirror having a conversation with itself. Then attention gets paid to the conversation.
Do you experience yourself being a mind, the mind you cannot find in an open brain?
No. I can't pin down what I experience being. It centers in the head, but It's not seeing, it's not hearing, it's not thinking, it's not tasting, it's not smelling, it's not feeling, it's not moving.
What is the mind anyway?

I’m not asking for theories, but the direct and immediate experience of mind here now, in this very moment.
It's a space where thoughts become visible.
Where is the mind in this very moment as you observe it?
It seems centered around the head. But not specifically defined.
How big it is? What color? What shape it has? What is its texture? Does it have a smell? Does it have a sound?
No specific shape. Size is somewhat bigger than the head but no specific boundary, it just fades away at the edges. Mostly a clear texture with some tingling and tension in places. No smell. No sound. It's more like an empty space than anything.

Thank you,
Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:16 am

Hi Andrew,
No. But this train of questioning really just points toward more thinking.
Exactly. Since my questions were just as conceptual than your assumptions. So now you can see that this is totally a dead-end.

You can never ever think or speculate yourself into seeing reality as it is.
Reality can only be directly known here now, in this very moment.
All discover can happen only the present moment experience.
Never in thinking.
The mind says "I am". I don't "know" that I'm the mind, it's just what it says.
You are IMAGINING that there is such thing as a mind, and this fictional mind is talking and saying that “I am the mind”.
No specific shape. Size is somewhat bigger than the head but no specific boundary, it just fades away at the edges. Mostly a clear texture with some tingling and tension in places. No smell. No sound. It's more like an empty space than anything
Do you see what happens here? Do you see that you are holding onto a belief about a mind, and thus you invented an imagination about its supposed location in the head, or even being bigger than the head?

But how do you know that this assumed min is bigger than the head?
Have you ever seen a mind?
Or only you imagine a mind while you are searching for it?


Look, is there a visual thought (mental image) depicting a head and a mind being bigger than the head? Isn’t this ‘clear texture’ is coming from this imagined image of the mind and head?

Please go to the mirror and investigate if you actually see a ‘clear textured mind’ that is bigger than the head, but has on specific boundary, just fades away at the edges.

Is this what you see in the mirror? Or you only see a head, but no mind whatsoever?

And what about the tingling and tension? What makes a tingling sensation or a muscle tension into a mind?


Do you see that you are deriving this information from a mental image you imagine?

Put your attention to your hands, and notice that there are lots of tingling sensations there.
So why don’t you call the tingling sensation in the hands as mind?
Is there any difference between the tingling sensations in the hand and the head?


Now search an area of the body where there is tension. It could be in your neck or shoulders or in the chest. Focus on that contrasted, tensed sensation.

Why don’t you label the muscle tension in the shoulders as a mind, but you label the muscle tension in the head as a mind?
Is there any difference between the two tensions?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:54 am

Hi Vivien,
You are IMAGINING that there is such thing as a mind, and this fictional mind is talking and saying that “I am the mind”.
Oh, I see. Thank you. There's really nothing here, but because I believe the idea. I keep trying to find things to support the belief.
A: No specific shape. Size is somewhat bigger than the head but no specific boundary, it just fades away at the edges. Mostly a clear texture with some tingling and tension in places. No smell. No sound. It's more like an empty space than anything.
V: Do you see what happens here? Do you see that you are holding onto a belief about a mind, and thus you invented an imagination about its supposed location in the head, or even being bigger than the head?
Yes. Thank you.
But how do you know that this assumed mind is bigger than the head?
I don't. They're just sensations.
Have you ever seen a mind?
No.
Or only you imagine a mind while you are searching for it?
Yes, while looking for it.
Look, is there a visual thought (mental image) depicting a head and a mind being bigger than the head? Isn’t this ‘clear texture’ is coming from this imagined image of the mind and head?
It's coming from the belief that there must be a mind somewhere, so sensations in the head region are used to support that belief.
Please go to the mirror and investigate if you actually see a ‘clear textured mind’ that is bigger than the head, but has on specific boundary, just fades away at the edges.

Is this what you see in the mirror? Or you only see a head, but no mind whatsoever?
No. There's just a head.
And what about the tingling and tension? What makes a tingling sensation or a muscle tension into a mind?
Just an idea that the mind exists.
Do you see that you are deriving this information from a mental image you imagine?
Yes. That's kind of big to see.
Put your attention to your hands, and notice that there are lots of tingling sensations there.
So why don’t you call the tingling sensation in the hands as mind?
They're not in the head region, where it is believed the mind is.
Is there any difference between the tingling sensations in the hand and the head?
No.
Now search an area of the body where there is tension. It could be in your neck or shoulders or in the chest. Focus on that contrasted, tensed sensation.
Why don’t you label the muscle tension in the shoulders as a mind, but you label the muscle tension in the head as a mind?
Just an idea about where the mind should be.
Is there any difference between the two tensions?
No, just location.

Thank you!

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:47 am

Hi Andrew,
Oh, I see. Thank you. There's really nothing here, but because I believe the idea. I keep trying to find things to support the belief.
Exactly.
They're not in the head region, where it is believed the mind is.
sensations in the head region are used to support that belief.
A: So, there is a belief in a mind.
B: This mind is believed to in the head.
C: There are sensations in the head.
D: and because of A and B, the sensations are believed to be the proof of the mind in a head.
Can you see this?

Please investigate this assumption of a mind being in or around the head, and that the tingling sensations + muscle tensions of the head being the proof of this mind.

Investigate this many-many times before replying. Look into this very deeply. Look until you have no shred of doubt if there is a mind in reality or not.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:46 am

Hi Vivien,
A: So, there is a belief in a mind.
B: This mind is believed to be in the head.
C: There are sensations in the head.
D: and because of A and B, the sensations are believed to be the proof of the mind in a head.
Can you see this?
Yes.
Please investigate this assumption of a mind being in or around the head, and that the tingling sensations + muscle tensions of the head being the proof of this mind.

Investigate this many-many times before replying. Look into this very deeply. Look until you have no shred of doubt if there is a mind in reality or not.
OK. I see "mind" doesn't point to anything in the head. There are just sensations. There is more "space" now. "Mind" has shifted to the heart region which I realize is also just sensations. The "self" uses anything to claim existence. Brain mind. Heart mind. Body mind. So, I just keep hunting it down?

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:26 am

Hi Andrew,
OK. I see "mind" doesn't point to anything in the head. There are just sensations. There is more "space" now. "Mind" has shifted to the heart region which I realize is also just sensations.
Yes, exactly. Nice investigation.

Previously you wrote:
I can see the body. If I knock my hand on the table. I can feel the sensation where the hand meets table. The body feels, but I can't find a feeler-body as a separate entity.
When you say “I can see the body” – then what is this I that is seeing the body?
Where is the seer?
Is there a seer at all? Or there is only the seen?

“I can feel the sensation” – what is this I that is feeling sensations?
Where is the feeler?
Is there a feeler at all? Or there are only sensations happening?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:29 am

Hi Vivien,

Sorry, I've been out of town (and internet range for the past few days).
When you say “I can see the body” – then what is this I that is seeing the body?
Oh, I see. Nothing is.
Where is the seer?
Nowhere. There are feelings/sensations that are pointed to. But no seer.
Is there a seer at all? Or is there only the seen?
Just the seen and the act of seeing it.
“I can feel the sensation” – what is this I that is feeling sensations?
This seemed more difficult. But there is nothing, I just points to other feelings.
Where is the feeler?
No feeler, just feeling. Which points to other feeling when looking for the feeler.
Is there a feeler at all? Or are there only sensations happening?
Just lots of sensations.

It occurred to me this morning that there is a belief in a "self" and anything that can be is used to support that belief. And recently, “I don’t get it” has been coming up. Which is funny, that "I" that doesn't get it just points to more sensations. There's no one to get nothing.

Anyway, thank you!

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:40 am

Hi Andrew,

In the past you said things like: “I am the mind”.
Is this still how you perceive yourself to be? Are you the mind?

How and what do you perceive yourself to be exactly?

Do you perceive that you are the thinker of thoughts?
Do you perceive that you are the feeler of feelings, emotions and sensations?
Are you the one who is hearing sounds?
Are you the one looking out the eyes form inside and seeing the world out there?


Please reply with a bit longer comments than usual, so I can have a better understanding where you are at the moment.
It occurred to me this morning that there is a belief in a "self" and anything that can be is used to support that belief. And recently, “I don’t get it” has been coming up. Which is funny, that "I" that doesn't get it just points to more sensations. There's no one to get nothing.
Is this something you clearly see experientially, or rather this is just an intellectual understanding?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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