Ready to Go

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

Nothing I can find.

You repeatedly wrote, ‘nothing I can find’. This reply is not enough. You have to be sure of your answer.

This reply suggest that although I cannot find it, it might be lurking somewhere.
So it means that you have to look more.
Check if there is a self/me/decider lurking somewhere.

So, do the exercise several times more, and this time make sure that you are certain with your reply.

V: Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?

A: No. But thought seems to anticipate which hand will move.

So are thoughts living and thinking entities, who has the power or ability to anticipate the future, to which hand to move?
If not, on what bases do you make that claim that ‘thoughts can anticipate which hand will move’?

There seems to be a preference for the right hand.

Isn’t ‘preference’ is just an intellectual conclusion?
How does ‘preference’ itself is experienced?

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

This reply suggest that although I cannot find it, it might be lurking somewhere.
So it means that you have to look more.
Check if there is a self/me/decider lurking somewhere.
So, do the exercise several times more, and this time make sure that you are certain with your reply.

There is no self/me/decider anywhere (which is weird and there was an expectation that something would be making the decision). There is just a sensation in the chest area.

V: Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
A: No. But thought seems to anticipate which hand will move.
V: So are thoughts living and thinking entities, who has the power or ability to anticipate the future, to which hand to move?
If not, on what basis do you make that claim that ‘thoughts can anticipate which hand will move’?

Not living. The thought comes after the decision has been made, but before the action has happened.

A: There seems to be a preference for the right hand.

V: Isn’t ‘preference’ is just an intellectual conclusion?
How is ‘preference’ itself experienced?

The right hand is easier to raise, that’s all. It appears to be the path of least resistance.

Thank you,

Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

V: If not, on what basis do you make that claim that ‘thoughts can anticipate which hand will move’?
A: Not living. The thought comes after the decision has been made, but before the action has happened.

What do you mean by ‘not living’?

Please do the exercise several times again.
You say that that ‘the thought comes after the decision has been made’.

So is there an actual decision going on, outside of thoughts?

Please describe me the experience of decision which happens BEFORE the thought ABOUT decision.

A: There seems to be a preference for the right hand.
V: Isn’t ‘preference’ is just an intellectual conclusion?
How is ‘preference’ itself experienced?

The right hand is easier to raise, that’s all. It appears to be the path of least resistance.

You didn’t reply to my questions above. So here they are again. Please take my questions literally, and ALWAYS reply to them by looking at experience and NOT by giving explanations.

You are missing important pointers by ignoring my questions and just giving explanations.

Isn’t ‘preference’ is just an intellectual conclusion?
How is ‘preference’ itself experienced?

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

What do you mean by ‘not living’?

I meant thoughts are not living and thinking entities with the lability to anticipate the future of which hand will move.

So is there an actual decision going on, outside of thoughts?

No. The hands just move.

Please describe me the experience of decision which happens BEFORE the thought ABOUT decision.

There is no decision. The hands move by themselves.

You are missing important pointers by ignoring my questions and just giving explanations.

Sorry and thank you for pointing to them again.

Isn’t ‘preference’ is just an intellectual conclusion?

Yes.
(Most bodies avoid pain rather than embrace it. Maybe the wording isn’t exact, but wouldn’t that be a biological “preference” before thought? )

How is ‘preference’ itself experienced?

Just as a label applied to experience. Wow.

Thank you!

Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

V: How is ‘preference’ itself experienced?

A: Just as a label applied to experience. Wow.

Exactly!

(Most bodies avoid pain rather than embrace it. Maybe the wording isn’t exact, but wouldn’t that be a biological “preference” before thought? )

This is intellectualization, you are trying to think things through.

Just because you take away your hands from the fire, does this mean that there is an actual preference going on?

If yes, show me this preference. Is it a sound? A sensation? Color? Taste? Smell? Or a thought?

Does preference exist in reality without thoughts/concepts, aka logical conclusion?

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

Just because you take away your hands from the fire, does this mean that there is an actual preference going on?

No. I burnt my hand on the toaster after reading that question. The hand just jerked away without any thought involved.

Does preference exist in reality without thoughts/concepts, aka logical conclusion?

No, it doesn’t.

Thank you.

Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

I found this very difficult.

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.

What is it that is considering these options?

Nothing is considering them. Attention shifts between the thoughts and desires. The desires to eat and to resist eating flavor the experience.

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appearing about pros and cons? – look very carefully

The thoughts just arise. The contrary desires prompt them.

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate.”

So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?

One desire was stronger than the other.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

No.

How exactly is the decision made?

There is a desire; it prompts thoughts/action.

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)

What is it that performed the chosen action?

Nothing. The decision was made, the action was performed.

Thank you,

Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

So can you SEE clearly that there is no self/me/I who would do this or that, make decisions, moves the body, chooses between options?

LOOK very carefully before you reply.

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

So can you SEE clearly that there is no self/me/I who would do this or that, make decisions, moves the body, chooses between options?

I can see each when I pay attention (and do the exercises), but it’s not clear generally; it’s a little “muddy”. Thinking/thought keeps sweeping me along. It’s a constant barrage (thought) and easy to fall into the habit of going along with it.

Thank you,

Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

I can see each when I pay attention (and do the exercises), but it’s not clear generally; it’s a little “muddy”.

You have to incorporate looking into your everyday life, you would like to succeed in this inquiry.

If you already look in the midst of your everyday life, then you have to do more. Preferably 100 times a day, even if just for 20 seconds of each time.

So I’m going to give you only one question.
Look with this question about 100 times a day, again and again and again.

Thinking/thought keeps sweeping me along. It’s a constant barrage (thought) and easy to fall into the habit of going along with it.

WHAT is it EXACTLY that is ‘falling into the habit of going along with thoughts?

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

So, I’ve been looking as much as possible with that question. Not quite a hundred times a day.

WHAT is it EXACTLY that is ‘falling into the habit of going along with thoughts?

Nothing is.

Thank you,

~Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

Is it totally clear experientially that there is no self, there is nothing, literally nothing that could believe in thoughts?

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

Is it totally clear experientially that there is no self, there is nothing, literally nothing that could believe in thoughts?

The previous question (WHAT is it EXACTLY that is ‘falling into the habit of going along with thoughts?) prompts a stepping back from thinking. There is a kind of clarity, an emptiness, and an awareness of the surrounding emptiness. In those moments the self doesn’t intrude. But that doesn’t last.
I’m sorry I don’t understand “there is literally nothing that could believe in thoughts”

What believes in thoughts?

Thank you,

Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

The previous question (WHAT is it EXACTLY that is ‘falling into the habit of going along with thoughts?) prompts a stepping back from thinking.

What is it EXACTLY that stepped back from thinking?
What performed the act of stepping back?

and an awareness of the surrounding emptiness.

How does ‘emptiness’ is experienced?
As a thought? Color? Sound? Sensation? Smell? Taste? Imagination?

In those moments the self doesn’t intrude. But that doesn’t last.

How does a ‘intruding self’ manifest?
Is the self an entity which could come and go?
How does this ‘intruding self’ look like?

I’m sorry I don’t understand “there is literally nothing that could believe in thoughts”
What believes in thoughts?

What is it exactly that you don’t understand in the comment “there is literally nothing that could believe in thoughts”? Exactly which part?

Is there a belief that there is a believer of thought? That there is something there who performs the act of believing?

Is there a beliver of thoughts?

Vivien