Ready to Go

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:58 am

Hi Andrew,
The idea/belief in a thinker is harder to see. I will look for that.
All right, let’s look into this. Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience without any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:10 am

Hi Vivien,
It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience without any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.
I do try to be thorough. It's part of the reason I'm a bit slow to reply.
Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.
OK. I find it difficult not to be immediately engaged with the thought when it arises.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
I can see as far as the sensation/feeling/other thought that triggered it, but I can't see where it comes from. It's just there.
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
As soon as I disengage my attention from the thought it falls apart. I don't know where it goes. This morning there were body sensations, chest and stomach, when I stepped back, but I don't know if there is any connection.
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
No. Other than what I wrote above. But the source or destination of thoughts, I can't see.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:00 am

Hi Andrew,
I do try to be thorough. It's part of the reason I'm a bit slow to reply.
All right. Rather be slow than not thorough :)
I can see as far as the sensation/feeling/other thought that triggered it, but I can't see where it comes from. It's just there.
Exactly – to the second part. But please forget about sensations/feelings. Focus exclusively on thoughts.
I don't know where it goes.
Yes, it cannot be known where thoughts go.

Thoughts actually don’t come and go, rather simply there is either a thought is present, or not. Can you see this?
This morning there were body sensations, chest and stomach, when I stepped back, but I don't know if there is any connection.
If you want to succeed with this inquiry, you have to let go of paying attention to feelings and sensations.
The key is not in sensations, the key is in thought.

Focus exclusively on thoughts.
Can you do that? And more importantly, are you willing to do that?
As soon as I disengage my attention from the thought it falls apart.
And how do you disengage attention from a thought? How do you do it?
Is it your doing at all? Or attention just jumps form one thought to another by itself?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:35 am

Hi Vivien,
Thoughts actually don’t come and go, rather simply there is either a thought is present, or not. Can you see this?
Yes. That is the experience. There or not.
A: This morning there were body sensations, chest and stomach, when I stepped back, but I don't know if there is any connection.
V: If you want to succeed with this inquiry, you have to let go of paying attention to feelings and sensations.
The key is not in sensations, the key is in thought.
That's good to know. Thank you.
Focus exclusively on thoughts.
Can you do that? And more importantly, are you willing to do that?
OK. Absolutely. (If you told me to hop on one foot doing these exercises, I'd give it a shot. I trust your guidance.) That was just what I observed at the time, but I'm not investing in them, or actively looking for them.
A: As soon as I disengage my attention from the thought it falls apart.
V: And how do you disengage attention from a thought? How do you do it?
Is it your doing at all? Or attention just jumps from one thought to another by itself?
Yes. Attention moves to the idea/thought that I want to observe where this thought has come from and where it's going. But I don't know why that thought comes when it does. It just comes as well. I don't do it. I can see/understand that I don't have any control over my thoughts, that they are a response to whatever is going on.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:41 am

Hi Andrew,

It’s good that you can trust this process.

Let’s investigate attention a bit more.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?


Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:27 am

Hi Vivien,
Is there anything moving attention, or does it move by itself?
It moves by itself.
Is there a focus-er?
Not that I can find.
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
No.
What moves attention?
It seems to move to whatever is most "engaging". That's the best word I can think of.
Is thought in control of attention?
No. Attention moves to thought. If anything attention seems to sustain thought. Thoughts can focus attention, like your questions. But the thought "Focus only on breathing for the next five minutes" has no control over how long attention is focused on breathing.

I'm a little horrified at how scattered my attention is. Anyway...

Thank you as always,

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:27 am

Hi Andrew,

You did some nice looking :)
V: What moves attention?
A: It seems to move to whatever is most "engaging". That's the best word I can think of.
If you look even more closely, can you say that there is anything moving attention? Or attention just moves on its own, without anything or anyone making it so?
Thoughts can focus attention, like your questions.
Are you sure about this? Are you sure that thoughts can focus attention? Can you actually OBSERVE while thought grabs attention’s hand and make it focus?
Can you know it for sure that thought can attention make focus, or rather it’s just a logical conclusion?
Thoughts can focus attention, like your questions. But the thought "Focus only on breathing for the next five minutes" has no control over how long attention is focused on breathing.
So are you saying that there are different types of thoughts, some have power over attention while others don’t? is this really the case? Or is this a thought speculation?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:19 am

Hi Vivien,
You did some nice looking :)
Yay!
If you look even more closely, can you say that there is anything moving attention? Or attention just moves on its own, without anything or anyone making it so?
I can't find anything moving attention. It just moves, or focuses on things.
A: Thoughts can focus attention, like your questions.
V: Are you sure about this? Are you sure that thoughts can focus attention? Can you actually OBSERVE while thought grabs attention’s hand and make it focus?
Can you know it for sure that thought can attention make focus, or rather it’s just a logical conclusion?
Sorry. I probably wasn't very clear in my wording. I meant that thoughts can act as pointers, not that they have any control over attention. Whether any attention is given to what they are pointing at is separate from the thought.
A: Thoughts can focus attention, like your questions. But the thought "Focus only on breathing for the next five minutes" has no control over how long attention is focused on breathing.
V: So are you saying that there are different types of thoughts, some have power over attention while others don’t? Is this really the case? Or is this a thought speculation?
Same as above. A thought can point in a direction, but I don't see it actually having over power over whether attention moves in that direction. Your questions point my attention in a certain direction, but whether my attention goes in that direction is another matter, independent from the thought.

Thank you!

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:51 am

Hi Andrew,
I probably wasn't very clear in my wording. I meant that thoughts can act as pointers, not that they have any control over attention. Whether any attention is given to what they are pointing at is separate from the thought.
And what is deciding whether to give attention to pointer or not?
Is there an ‘I’ deciding whether follow the questions or not?
Your questions point my attention in a certain direction, but whether my attention goes in that direction is another matter, independent from the thought.
MY attention – what is it that owns attention?
What does the word ‘my’ point to?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:34 am

Hi Vivien,
And what is deciding whether to give attention to a pointer or not?
I don't know. I can't find where that impulse comes from.
Is there an ‘I’ deciding whether follow the questions or not?
No.
MY attention – what is it that owns attention?
Nothing owns attention. It's like a moth to a flame, as far as I can see.
What does the word ‘my’ point to?
Nothing I can find in thinking. (There are some sensations in the stomach.)

Thank you.

~Andrew

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Vivien
Posts: 6964
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:39 am

Hi Andrew,
V: And what is deciding whether to give attention to a pointer or not?
A: I don't know. I can't find where that impulse comes from.
Is there such thing as impulse at all? Or there is either attention on the pointer or not?
V: What does the word ‘my’ point to?
A: Nothing I can find in thinking. (There are some sensations in the stomach.)
And is there an ACTUAL, TANGIBLE, REAL I/self inside the stomach?
Or there are only THOUGHTS mislabelling the sensation of the stomach as ‘me’?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:14 am

Hi Vivien,
Is there such thing as impulse at all? Or there is either attention on the pointer or not?
Just attention on the pointer.
And is there an ACTUAL, TANGIBLE, REAL I/self inside the stomach?
Yes! He says "hello." Sorry! Joke! No, just a sensation.
Or there are only THOUGHTS mislabelling the sensation of the stomach as ‘me’?
Yes, mislabelling. I think I've got it this time. Lots of old memories coming up and vague old sensations which are being separated out from thinking.

So, I'm having moments of "clear" attention, when thinking is absent. They don't last very long, thinking always kicks in, but they seems to be happening more often.

Thank you.

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:53 am

Hi Andrew,
So, I'm having moments of "clear" attention, when thinking is absent. They don't last very long, thinking always kicks in, but they seems to be happening more often.
It’s important to mention here is that we are not after a state of ‘clear attention’ or the absence of thoughts. Not at all. So be careful not to make an expectation out of it.

Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more.

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper.
Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently.
Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?
Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I am" you?
Is the thought "I" you?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:38 am

Hi Vivien,
It’s important to mention here is that we are not after a state of ‘clear attention’ or the absence of thoughts. Not at all. So be careful not to make an expectation out of it.
OK. I understand.
Write the word "I" on a piece of paper.
Look at the word, is that YOU?
No.
Speak the word “I” silently.
Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?
No, just sensations.
Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?
No. Just a sound/vibration.
Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”
No.
Is the thought, "I am" you?
No. Just a thought and associated sensations.
Is the thought "I" you?
No, also a thought with some associated sensations.

Thank you!

~Andrew

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Vivien
Posts: 6964
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:05 am

Hi Andrew,

Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts.
Is there a difference in these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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