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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:41 am

Hi Andrew,
Once again, I know all this "seeming" is speculation. I'm finding it really hard to be clear on what is happening. This is bringing up some resistance in the chest region again. Which is interesting, I'm not sure why observing where thoughts take place would cause resistance.
Yes, your replies are purely speculations.
With speculations you cannot get anywhere. It’s a dead-end.

You have to actually LOOK what is happening in experience, and not just write what you THINK is happening. We need experiential facts, and not your thoughts or opinions. Is this clear?
V: Are you saying when you become aware of thoughts you can LITERALLY SEE them being around the head?
Are you 100% sure about this?
A: Sorry, I was perhaps a bit unclear with my choice of prepositions. I don't mean outside my physical head, everything is internal.
It doesn’t matter whether you say that thoughts are inside or around the head, both are just ASSUMPTIONS, speculations, not experiential facts.
No, but within the head is where I become aware of them.
HOW do you know that thoughts are inside the head? Just because you THINK so?
Yes, I can. I'm not 100% sure. There "seems" (again) to be activity in the head closest to the eyes and the ears, but I'm not convinced I'm not just tricking myself
Activity? What kind of activity? You mean sensations? Then what?
What does the presence of sensation in the eyes and ears have to do with thoughts?
Sorry, not by the physical ears in the way I'd hear a physical sound, but there "seems" (still not 100% convinced) to be a connection. But if I'm recalling a song or conversation, there is a sensation in the ears. Same if I'm talking to myself, I become aware of the throat.
Just because there is a sensation present in the ears, does it mean that thoughts are known by the ears? Can you see that this is just speculation?

There are sensations in the ears. Then what?

Just because the sensation of ear and thoughts are present at the same time, does this mean that thoughts are known by that sensation?

Can a sensation know anything?

Like the ears, I'm not hallucinating visual information. Just that visual thought "seem" to stimulate something in the front of my head closest to my eyes.
HOW do you know that visual thoughts stimulate the sensations around the eyes?

Have you actually OBSERVED while thoughts are performed the act of stimulating sensations around the eyes?

Or you just making a thought conclusion, that just because there are both present (visual thought + sensation of eyes) then the visual thought must be the one that is making/stimulating the sensation to appear?
They're not heard by the ears like sounds, but they "seem" to be attracted? to that part of the brain associated with hearing.
Brain? What brain? You are not looking. You are just writing down your beliefs.

Can a brain be felt or experienced in any way?
Or is this just another thought speculation accepted as truth?
They're not seen by the eyes like sight, but connected with that part of the brain associated with vision.
Again, you are not looking at all. You are just fantasizing. Thinking.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:22 am

Hi Vivien,
With speculations you cannot get anywhere. It’s a dead-end.

You have to actually LOOK what is happening in experience, and not just write what you THINK is happening. We need experiential facts, and not your thoughts or opinions. Is this clear?
Yes. I understand. Thank you.
HOW do you know that thoughts are inside the head? Just because you THINK so?
No, not because I think so. I don't know they are inside my head. The experience is that inside the head is where I become aware of them.
A: There "seems" (again) to be activity in the head closest to the eyes and the ears, but I'm not convinced I'm not just tricking myself.
V: Activity? What kind of activity? You mean sensations? Then what?
Then nothing. Just a sensation.
What does the presence of sensation in the eyes and ears have to do with thoughts?
Anything I offer would be speculation. I don't know.
Can a sensation know anything?
No.
HOW do you know that visual thoughts stimulate the sensations around the eyes?
I don't. I made an assumption with the ears and applied it to the eyes.
Have you actually OBSERVED while thoughts are performed the act of stimulating sensations around the eyes?
No, it was an assumption.
Or you just making a thought conclusion, that just because there are both present (visual thought + sensation of eyes) then the visual thought must be the one that is making/stimulating the sensation to appear?
Yes. That is what happened. There is always a sensation in the ears, eyes, throat if I pay attention.
Can a brain be felt or experienced in any way?
Or is this just another thought speculation accepted as truth?
There have been headaches. I don't know if that is the brain. But no I can't feel my brain.

Thank you.

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:05 am

Hi Andrew,
No, not because I think so. I don't know they are inside my head. The experience is that inside the head is where I become aware of them.
It doesn’t matter how words are twisted. It doesn’t matter if you say that thoughts are around the head, inside the head, or being known/aware-d from inside the head.

Since NONE of them is true. All of them is just an imagination.

You say:
“I am aware of thoughts from inside my head”

So are you saying that you are locked inside the head, from where you are aware of thoughts?
So you are living inside the head?

Please tell me the exact location where you live inside the head.
Do you live in the eyes?
Or maybe behind the eyes?
Or do you reside in the middle of the head?
Or do you live a bit closer to the back of the scull?
Or do you live in the throat?
Or do you reside at the top of the head?

Can you ACTUALLY find a self/I anywhere inside the head
?
There have been headaches. I don't know if that is the brain. But no I can't feel my brain.
It’s impossible to feel the brain, since there are no nociceptors in the brain.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:27 am

Hi Vivien,
So are you saying that you are locked inside the head, from where you are aware of thoughts?
So you are living inside the head?
Not locked anywhere.
Please tell me the exact location where you live inside the head.
I can't. And I'm not sure what "me" is anymore.
Do you live in the eyes?
Or maybe behind the eyes?
Or do you reside in the middle of the head?
Or do you live a bit closer to the back of the skull?
Or do you live in the throat?
Or do you reside at the top of the head?
I'm aware of all the spaces, but not fixed in any of them.
Can you ACTUALLY find a self/I anywhere inside the head?
No. So where is the idea of a self? Where does that exist? Because I can't find that either.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:02 am

Hi Andrew,
I'm aware of all the spaces, but not fixed in any of them.
Look for the ‘I’ that is aware of the head and the presence of thoughts.
Where is this I that is aware of the head and the thoughts?
No. So where is the idea of a self? Where does that exist? Because I can't find that either.
We are not looking for an idea of a self, we are looking for a REAL, TANGIBLE self.
Is this clear?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:01 am

Hi Vivien,
We are not looking for an idea of a self, we are looking for a REAL, TANGIBLE self.
Is this clear?
Yes. Thank you.

I’m quite busy this weekend and would like more time with the last questions. So, I’ll post again tomorrow.

~Andrew

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:57 am

Hi Vivien,

Sorry about the delay. The last questions really appealed for some reason, so I wanted to spend some time with them.
Look for the ‘I’ that is aware of the head and the presence of thoughts.
Where is this I that is aware of the head and the thoughts?
I can’t find anything, a specific location or form. There is a tingling sensation throughout the body sometimes when I look. It’s the same “I” that’s aware of everything. Sounds, sights, pains, feelings.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:23 am

Hi Andrew,
I can’t find anything, a specific location or form. There is a tingling sensation throughout the body sometimes when I look. It’s the same “I” that’s aware of everything. Sounds, sights, pains, feelings.
There are some tingling sensations, and then what?
Can you see that it’s just a fantasy that sensations have anything to do with a self/I?

What happens when you ask: Is there a thinker?
Is there I?

Does the character Andrew thinking thoughts?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:27 am

Hi Vivien,
There are some tingling sensations, and then what?
Can you see that it’s just a fantasy that sensations have anything to do with a self/I?
I know the sensations are not the "self/I". It's just what's happening at the time. But OK, not worth mentioning.
What happens when you ask: Is there a thinker?
Is there an I?
Nothing really. Some faint tension in the chest, but nothing much. Kind of an empty quiet space when looking for a thinker/I.
Does the character Andrew think thoughts?
No. It appears they just come in response to what is happening. I tried very hard to think a thought, and came up with "tomato", but when I searched I found there was a faint smell (not that similar to a tomato really) which has prompted it.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:41 am

Hi Andrew,

For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment.
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Let me know what you find.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:56 am

Hi Vivien,
...notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Let me know what you find.
This is great. Thank you. I'm not able to step outside the thoughts. There is a doer/owner around thoughts. There's always an undercurrent of "I'm doing this". I'm looking for the doer.

Thank you,

~Andrew

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Vivien
Posts: 6966
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:47 am

Hi Andrew,

Here is an exercise for you.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
WHERE is the controller/me?
WHERE is the controller/me?

How is the decision made?
Is there a decision maker/me?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:09 pm

Hello Vivien,

Sorry for the slow reply. It was a busy weekend. Thank you for the exercise, it was very illuminating.
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
I have no idea. When thinking is taken out of the equation. They almost seem like someone else's hands moving. I started noticing that all movement seems to be happening of it's own accord.
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?
No.
Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Not that I can see. When thinking gets involved, it tries to take credit.
WHERE is the controller/me?
I can't tell. I don't know if there is one.
How is the decision made?
I don't know. It just happens. Sometimes it seems predictable, other times random.
Is there a decision maker/me?
There is a thinker that thinks there is. But I can't find anything but sensations in the body when I look for him.

Thank you.

~Andrew

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Vivien
Posts: 6966
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:22 am

Hi Andrew,
V: How is the decision made?
A: I don't know. It just happens. Sometimes it seems predictable, other times random.
Predictable? Please do the experience again several times. See, if there is really such thing as the decision being predictable.

Is there someone or something making a prediction?
Or prediction just another thought appearing on its own?
V: Is there a decision maker/me?
A: There is a thinker that thinks there is. But I can't find anything but sensations in the body when I look for him.
But HOW do you know that there is a thinker, if there are only sensations?

What thinks? The Andrew-character? The me-thought?
Is there a thinker of thoughts in experience? Or the thinker is just imagined?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:13 pm

Hi Vivien,
Predictable? Please do the experience again several times. See, if there is really such thing as the decision being predictable.

Is there someone or something making a prediction?
It's more the thought jumps in, "Of course I'm raising that hand, it's easier to raise than the other one. I'm raising the other for a bit of variety/balance."
Or prediction just another thought appearing on its own?
So, yes it's another thought, but the space between the action and the thought appears seamless when it occurs.
V: Is there a decision maker/me?
A: There is a thinker that thinks there is. But I can't find anything but sensations in the body when I look for him.
But HOW do you know that there is a thinker, if there are only sensations?
Well, that is the question. I don't. I can't find one.
What thinks? The Andrew-character? The me-thought?
Is there a thinker of thoughts in experience? Or the thinker is just imagined?
I can see thoughts are a response to stimulus (or other thoughts). The idea/belief in a thinker is harder to see. I will look for that.

Thank you,

Andrew


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