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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:28 am

Hi Vivien,
Idea is a concept, which is a thought fabrication.

An idea cannot be felt. Can you see this clearly?
Yes. But, wow, I'd never really looked at that. An idea can trigger feelings, and feelings can trigger ideas? But an idea can’t be felt. And a feeling can’t truly be ideated (or rather expressed as an idea). They’re usually so mixed up together.
And no-idea also cannot be felt. Can you see this clearly?
Does this mean the absence of a thought doesn’t mean thinking is feeling? I kind of get that. Thinking can’t feel, regardless of whether there are thoughts happening or not. Is that right?
Can you see that ‘I have no idea’ is a thought and not a sensation?
Yes. It’s clearly an thought.
There might be sensations also present, but those sensation make this thought into a sensation. Can you see this?
I’m guessing “don’t make this thought into a sensation.” Yes, I understand that. Thank you.
A: I appear to have the power to shift attention away from thinking. So, maybe I can't stop thinking, but I can stop paying attention to it for a short time.
V: How do you perform the act of shifting attention away from thinking?
Well, I guess the shift just happens by itself and "I" make a story about it. I don’t know how to let go of that story of I doing something.
Do you grab attention with your hands and move it from thoughts to sensations?
No attention just shifts and I make a story about that. Still don’t see that happening.
A: Thoughts appear to be a response to stimulus, external or internal. I don't have any control over what thoughts are presented to me.
V: So thoughts are presented TO YOU?
Well, that is the experience.
Who is the YOU?
I keep coming back to awareness. As that seems to be the only thing that is consistent and unchanging (except when I'm asleep I guess). Still looking and not finding a YOU and not seeing the who’s looking for the me/you either, but the sense is that they’re there.

(You know, seeing through the self seems like such a weird thing to do. Why would someone even conceive of doing that? The self seems like such a reasonable thing to be.)
And where is this ‘I’ that thoughts are presented TO?
We’ll they appear to be presented in the head to something. So is that something simply awareness?
Where are YOU?
I'm still looking. That's all I've got for that one sorry.

Thank you,

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:39 am

Hi Andrew,
V: How do you perform the act of shifting attention away from thinking?
A: Well, I guess the shift just happens by itself and "I" make a story about it. I don’t know how to let go of that story of I doing something.
Andrew, with GUESSING you cannot get anywhere.
Guessing is just a speculation.

You have to ACTUALLY OBSERVER IN EXPERIENCE ‘how you perform the act of shifting attention away from thinking’.
V: Do you grab attention with your hands and move it from thoughts to sensations?
A: No attention just shifts and I make a story about that. Still don’t see that happening.
What is it that you don’t see happening? That attention just shifts by itself?
Please don’t just try to write the ‘right’ answer.

Every words you write have to reflect what you can see here now in experience, without any speculation of guesses.
Can you see that guessing and speculating is useless with this investigation?
V: And where is this ‘I’ that thoughts are presented TO?
A: We’ll they appear to be presented in the head to something. So is that something simply awareness?
Andrew, you are speculating about awareness and not looking.
Can you see how useless speculations are?
Can you see that your speculations are just an avoidance to actually look at what is happening in experience?
(You know, seeing through the self seems like such a weird thing to do. Why would someone even conceive of doing that? The self seems like such a reasonable thing to be.)
OK. This is the key point here.

You don’t really want to see through the self. That’s why you are just going in circles, avoiding really looking.

It’s OK if you don’t want see through the self. It’s not a problem. You don’t have to this.
Just please be HONEST with yourself what is it that you really want.

And let me know how you decide.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:07 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you as always.
Andrew, with GUESSING you cannot get anywhere.
Guessing is just a speculation.
OK. I need to be clear.
You have to ACTUALLY OBSERVE IN EXPERIENCE ‘how you perform the act of shifting attention away from thinking’.
V: Do you grab attention with your hands and move it from thoughts to sensations?
A: No attention just shifts and I make a story about that. Still don’t see that happening.
What is it that you don’t see happening? That attention just shifts by itself?
Please don’t just try to write the ‘right’ answer.
I'm not trying to write the right answer. I'm saying that, I can't see myself making up stories about everything that happens. I understand that's what it's doing, but I can't seem to catch it in the before it starts the process.
Every word you write has to reflect what you can see here now in experience, without any speculation or guesses.
Can you see that guessing and speculating is useless with this investigation?
OK. I find it difficult to express in words what I experience.
V: And where is this ‘I’ that thoughts are presented TO?
A: We’ll they appear to be presented in the head to something. So is that something simply awareness?
Andrew, you are speculating about awareness and not looking.
I'm looking and then speculating.
Can you see how useless speculations are?
Can you see that your speculations are just an avoidance to actually look at what is happening in experience?
But, yes. I realize that speculating/thinking about it isn't going to help me see the self. I just thought that when you said let's shift from sensation to thoughts, that (laughing at myself now) I should write about thoughts.
A: (You know, seeing through the self seems like such a weird thing to do. Why would someone even conceive of doing that? The self seems like such a reasonable thing to be.)
OK. This is the key point here.
I'm sorry, I wrote that after drinking. I was just looking and not seeing, and thinking that the self seems so real, it's a very convincing illusion, why would someone even conceive that it wasn't real? I realize this is speculation, but it's not something I spend time on. It was just a thought that bubbled up at that time.
You don’t really want to see through the self. That’s why you are just going in circles, avoiding really looking.
It’s OK if you don’t want see through the self. It’s not a problem. You don’t have to this.
Just please be HONEST with yourself what is it that you really want.
And let me know how you decide.
I do want to do this. I'm sorry if my pace and words seem like I'm not committed. I realize I'm in a rut. When you wrote "That’s why you are just going in circles", I thought "I know I'm just going in circles" and there was a tiny sensation of glee. I watched a lot of Jim Newman videos (for better or worse) and he often said, "If the self really knew what was going on at these meetings, it would never turn up." I think I've internalized that in some way, or my "self" believes that it will lose something through this process. That or some other fears I'm not aware of. Also, I know I wrote about it being too difficult, but weirdly there is also a part saying this is too easy. It's something that has always seemed so unobtainable, there should be more difficulty, just looking can't be enough.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:09 am

Hi Andrew,
But, yes. I realize that speculating/thinking about it isn't going to help me see the self. I just thought that when you said let's shift from sensation to thoughts, that (laughing at myself now) I should write about thoughts.
No, I meant observing thoughts.
It's something that has always seemed so unobtainable, there should be more difficulty, just looking can't be enough.
What else should be needed other than LOOKING at EXPERIENCE and comparing it with thoughts/beliefs?
How else of no self could be realized other than looking for it, investigating if it’s really there?
I watched a lot of Jim Newman videos (for better or worse) and he often said, "If the self really knew what was going on at these meetings, it would never turn up." I think I've internalized that in some way, or my "self" believes that it will lose something through this process.
OK, we have to clarify something.

You speak as if the self would be a real entity who is aware what is going on, and it believes that it will lose something with this inquiry.

But how can a fictional/imagined character be aware and believe that it will lose something?

I don’t know how old are you, but maybe you remember the cartoon of Tommy and Jerry (the cat and the mouse). If not, imagine any cartoon character.

Can the cartoon character of Tommy be afraid of someone turning of the TV set?
Can the cartoon character of Tommy be afraid of finding out that he is just a cartoon character, and not a real existing entity (a real cat)?

Do you really believe that the self is aware of what is going on, and it really fears that it might lose something?

Can a fantasy be afraid?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:59 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for the clarification.
A: It's something that has always seemed so unobtainable, there should be more difficulty, just looking can't be enough.
V: What else should be needed other than LOOKING at EXPERIENCE and comparing it with thoughts/beliefs?
What else is possible? Once again, just ideas from a lifetime creating expectations.
How else could no self be realized other than looking for it, investigating if it’s really there?
Yes, I understand.
OK, we have to clarify something.

You speak as if the self would be a real entity who is aware what is going on, and it believes that it will lose something with this inquiry.

But how can a fictional/imagined character be aware and believe that it will lose something?
Right. I hadn't made that connection yet, that the self just being an idea isn't alive.
I don’t know how old are you, but maybe you remember the cartoon of Tommy and Jerry (the cat and the mouse). If not, imagine any cartoon character.
Oh, yes. I grew up with them.
Can the cartoon character of Tommy be afraid of someone turning of the TV set?
No.
Can the cartoon character of Tommy be afraid of finding out that he is just a cartoon character, and not a real existing entity (a real cat)?
No.
Do you really believe that the self is aware of what is going on, and it really fears that it might lose something?
I hadn't looked at the self from the view of being purely an idea. That makes it easier to approach.
Can a fantasy be afraid?
No. I've been recalling the first night I started this process with you, and I remember an image I had of roots from the mind going down into the chest. It seems some of my ideas have been tangled up with feelings. Does that happen?

Anyway, last night, I felt close to something. But frustratingly I can't really remember the question that triggered it. But the looking is coming easier it seems.

Thank you.

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:50 am

Hi Andrew,
I hadn't looked at the self from the view of being purely an idea. That makes it easier to approach.
OK. Let’s start to look into thoughts.
I've been recalling the first night I started this process with you, and I remember an image I had of roots from the mind going down into the chest.
Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe it? What about its shape? Color? Texture?
Anything else with which you can perceive it?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:54 am

Hi Vivien,
Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
No, I can't. I had connected it with the brain and sensations in the head, but I can't find a "mind" as such.
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
The space where thoughts become apparent.
What about its shape? Color? Texture?
Nothing that I can perceive. There are body sensations, but those aren't the mind. Ha ha. Funny.
Anything else with which you can perceive it?
No, "mind" is an idea. The brain does it's thing, but the "mind" is just a label.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:05 am

Hi Andrew,
V: What is it [mind] in the very moment you observe it?
A: The space where thoughts become apparent
Are you saying that the mind is experienced as a space where thoughts become apparent?

Can you observer this space, here now?
How is this ‘space’ is experienced?
Is it really there? Or it’s just imagined?

Do thoughts have a location where they appear?


It’s important that your reply comes from looking at experience directly, without any speculation, imagination or metaphor.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:11 am

Hi Vivien,
Are you saying that the mind is experienced as a space where thoughts become apparent?
Can you observe this space, here now?
I was. But no, it's a mixture of head sensation and vision.
How is this ‘space’ experienced?
It's a sensation in the head that resolves into stimulus from the eyes.
Is it really there? Or it’s just imagined?
The space is just imagined.
Do thoughts have a location where they appear?
There's a sensation running through the center of the head like a line when I look for a location at the moment. A tingling in the ears. A tingling through the whole body.

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:53 am

Hi Andrew,
V: How is this ‘space’ experienced?
A: It's a sensation in the head that resolves into stimulus from the eyes.
Are you saying that the ‘space’ where thoughts supposedly arise are experienced as a sensation?
Are you sure about that?

How could a sensation be ‘space’? Is this possible?
V: Do thoughts have a location where they appear?
A: There's a sensation running through the center of the head like a line when I look for a location at the moment. A tingling in the ears. A tingling through the whole body.
Please read my above questions carefully, and then your reply to it.

Can you see that you didn’t answer my question at all?


Here is the question again. Read it carefully and then look:

Do thoughts have a location where they appear?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
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Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:59 pm

Hi Vivien,
Are you saying that the ‘space’ where thoughts supposedly arise are experienced as a sensation?
Are you sure about that?
No, I have a tendency to focus on the sensations when I can't find anything. I can't define that space.
How could a sensation be ‘space’? Is this possible?
No. The opposite.
V: Do thoughts have a location where they appear?
A: There's a sensation running through the center of the head like a line when I look for a location at the moment. A tingling in the ears. A tingling through the whole body.
Please read my above question carefully, and then your reply to it.
Can you see that you didn’t answer my question at all?
Yes, I realized after I sent that last post what I'd done and had started writing a new reply.
Here is the question again. Read it carefully and then look:
Do thoughts have a location where they appear?
I can't find one. But they are perceived by the senses? What perceives thoughts? They appear to be perceived mainly around the head area, but I don't see them appearing there.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:39 pm

Hi Andrew,
What perceives thoughts? They appear to be perceived mainly around the head area, but I don't see them appearing there.
Please look again.

Can you actually observe thoughts appearing around the head?

If you don’t see thoughts appearing around the head, then HOW do you know exactly that thoughts perceived around the head?

And what is it exactly that is perceiving thoughts appearing around the head?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:05 am

Hi Vivien,
Can you actually observe thoughts appearing around the head?
No. When I become aware of them they are already there.
If you don’t see thoughts appearing around the head, then HOW do you know exactly that thoughts perceived around the head?
They seem to be connected to the eyes and ears. Primarily, they appear as words/hearing which is heard. Occasionally, I get visual images which use the eyes. I’m just noticing that neither are as rich as directly experienced sight or sound.
And what is it exactly that is perceiving thoughts appearing around the head?
I want to say nothing. There are so many feelings and tension that I was going to say my body, but the impression is nothing.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:40 am

Hi Andrew,
V: Can you actually observe thoughts appearing around the head?
A: No. When I become aware of them they are already there.
Are you saying when you become aware of thoughts you can LITERALLY SEE them being around the head?
Are you 100% sure about this?

Are thoughts ACTUALLY (literally) around the head?
They seem to be connected to the eyes and ears. Primarily, they appear as words/hearing which is heard. Occasionally, I get visual images which use the eyes. I’m just noticing that neither are as rich as directly experienced sight or sound.
“Thoughts SEEM to be connected to the eyes and the ears!” - But a SEEMING thing is NOT a REAL thing. Can you see this?

Are you saying that thoughts are heard by the ears?
Are you 100% sure about this?

And visual thoughts are seen by the eyes?
Are you 100% sure about it?

Are thoughts REALLY heard by the ears, or it’s just imagined?

Are visual thoughts REALLY seen by the eyes, or it’s just imagined?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:03 am

Hi Vivien,

I realize that this post has a lot of "seem"ing in it. I'm really unclear in this thinking/thought area.
Are you saying when you become aware of thoughts you can LITERALLY SEE them being around the head?
Are you 100% sure about this?
Sorry, I was perhaps a bit unclear with my choice of prepositions. I don't mean outside my physical head, everything is internal.
Are thoughts ACTUALLY (literally) around the head?
No, but within the head is where I become aware of them.
“Thoughts SEEM to be connected to the eyes and the ears!” - But a SEEMING thing is NOT a REAL thing. Can you see this?
Yes, I can. I'm not 100% sure. There "seems" (again) to be activity in the head closest to the eyes and the ears, but I'm not convinced I'm not just tricking myself.
Are you saying that thoughts are heard by the ears?
Are you 100% sure about this?
Sorry, not by the physical ears in the way I'd hear a physical sound, but there "seems" (still not 100% convinced) to be a connection. But if I'm recalling a song or conversation, there is a sensation in the ears. Same if I'm talking to myself, I become aware of the throat.
And visual thoughts are seen by the eyes?
Are you 100% sure about it?
Like the ears, I'm not hallucinating visual information. Just that visual thought "seem" to stimulate something in the front of my head closest to my eyes.
Are thoughts REALLY heard by the ears, or it’s just imagined?
They're not heard by the ears like sounds, but they "seem" to be attracted? to that part of the brain associated with hearing.
Are visual thoughts REALLY seen by the eyes, or it’s just imagined?
They're not seen by the eyes like sight, but connected with that part of the brain associated with vision.

Once again, I know all this "seeming" is speculation. I'm finding it really hard to be clear on what is happening. This is bringing up some resistance in the chest region again. Which is interesting, I'm not sure why observing where thoughts take place would cause resistance.

Thank you,

~Andrew


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