Guidance for deep looking

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:59 am

Hi Mike,
But when some kind of challenge comes up I feel like I am sucked back into the world of emotions and the need to act. there is sometimes a feeling that I have to drop this looking to sort out problems in my life. Like money and relationship stuff.
This is normal, even after seeing through the self. Every time when we get triggered, the sense of self gets much stronger. This will go on (even after seeing no self) until all the emotional wounds we carry inside are met and looked at. Seeing through the self is just the beginning, just the first step, not the end.
it happens no effort from me - in fact I don't want it there (but underneath I think I believe the resistance is helpful and protecting me).
Yes, fear and resistance is a protecting mechanism.

It’s here to do its function, to keep something safe. The question is, what is that? What needs protection?
And from what? Is there an actual threat, or just an imagined one?
When you look behind this protective mechanism, the fear and resistance, what is there?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:54 am

Hi

it happens no effort from me - in fact I don't want it there (but underneath I think I believe the resistance is helpful and protecting me).
Yes, fear and resistance is a protecting mechanism.

It’s here to do its function, to keep something safe. The question is, what is that? What needs protection?
It feels as if it’s my ability to look after myself and my family and exist even.
When I look now for an I there’s a feeling of fatigue and resistance felt in the head and stomach. Behind the feeling is a thought I ant do this it’s not working how long will it take. ( sometimes it’s much hopeful but right now it’s this). There is a thought that it should be obvious - if I can’t find an I then why do believe in it? Then a fear emotion and I think behind that the thought that things will fall apart if there is no I.
Typing now there is a feeling of frustration and desperation almost and below that a desire for relief to rest. Right now it feels like there’s an I making the effort to type - all mixed up in the sensation and muscle contractions of my face and body and the thoughts and my voice in my head.

it happens no effort from me - in fact I don't want it there (but underneath I think I believe the resistance is helpful and protecting me).
Yes, fear and resistance is a protecting mechanism.
It’s here to do its function, to keep something safe. The question is, what is that?
I don’t know. The sense of myself
What needs protection?
And from what? Is there an actual threat, or just an imagined one?
I can feel the resistance now and the frustration as tightness and a flat feeling. There is a desire to sort out my finances and a fear that losing the I will block that. There is a fear of just not being here I think- a physical unsteadiness.

When you look behind this protective mechanism, the fear and resistance, what is there?
Nothing can’t find anything I can sense
And from what? Is there an actual threat, or just an imagined one?
Not sure there’s just a fear and frustration one voice saying an I is require to be in control and another saying it can’t be found
When you look behind this protective mechanism, the fear and resistance, what is there?
Nothing can’t find anything

Thanks Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:01 am

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your honestly. I’m going to be very honest with you too. My comments might sounds blunt, but I don’t know any other way how to help you to wake up from the fearful dream you’ve created.
V: And from what? Is there an actual threat, or just an imagined one?
M: Not sure there’s just a fear and frustration one voice saying an I is require to be in control and another saying it can’t be found
Please ready my above question. There is no actual real threat, ONLY an IMAGINED one.

You’ve created a story, an IMAGINATION how you imagine seeing no self would be like.
You IMAGINE that there is a you, and you can lose control.
You IMAGINE all sorts of negative consequences of losing control.
You IMAGINE that you might not be able to provide for yourself and for your family.
You IMAGINE that if you lose control then you won’t be able to control your life, and everything will go downhill.

You’ve painted a pretty fearful IMAGE of how seeing no self would be like.
And the problem is that you are not seeing that it’s YOUR IMAGINATION that you are afraid of, since you believe that this is not just a fantasy, but rather a fact.

This picture illustrates nicely what is going on.

Image

You’ve created a fantasy and accepted it as a fact.
You are not seeing it as a fantasy, but rather you believe that it’s a fact.
You believe that seeing no self means losing control.
And since you believe that this is a fact, you are not seeing that it’s not true.
You behave as if this were the truth, as if indeed there were a you and you could lose control.
And this is indeed a fearful picture.
And you are afraid of this image.
You are afraid of your OWN IMAGINATION.

And since you are afraid and in a stress response to this fearful future picture, you are missing the most important point. You are missing the way out, the freedom out of this dangerous future scenario.

And that is that this is NOT how it is.
That this is NOT a FACT.
This is NOT the TRUTH.
This is just a FANTASY.

That it’s literally impossible to lose control. IMPOSSIBLE.
Since there is no you who could lose it.
There has NEVER EVER been a real Mike. NEVER.
So it’s literally impossible for Mike to lose control. Impossible.
And even in the moment of the fear of losing control, there is NO Mike, no you, no person having this fear.
You are literally afraid of your own imagination what you believe to be the facts of no-self.
But it’s not.

You are the one frightening yourself with a fearful fantasy.
Can you see this?


The thing is that until you become open to sincerely investigate your imagination and be open that it’s not a fact, then the chance of seeing through the self is close to zero.

Nobody in their right mind would do something that will bring such bad consequences than what you imagine.
So the circuit is closed.

So you have two options:

Either you change your predisposition about this imagination being a fact, and open up to REALLY and DEEPLY investigating its truthfulness, and as a consequence, letting it go… then, and only then there is a chance to investigate what is here now.

But if you continue believing this fearful image, you are blocking yourself and cutting off from looking and experiencing what is actually here, what actually is. If you choose this rout, that’s all right. You don’t have to do this inquiry. You might not be ready. And that’s is completely OK. You might be read a few years later. But not yet.

So I would like to ask you to seriously consider how would you proceed.
Please read this post and the other one I wrote to you a few weeks ago about this same topic of fear.

See if there is an opening to letting go this image as a fact and be open to accept intellectually that control cannot be lost, since there is no Mike and has never been ever, who could lose anything.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:32 am

Hi Viviven

thanks a lot for your reply and help.

I woke up the next day feeling a lot less fearful. In fact not really fearful at all. I'm not exactly sure why but I did read through your post several times and agreed with what you had written in it. I think the image of the hand and its frightening shadow helped a lot. Also I think I was pushing too hard and needed to relax a little.

I've reminded to stick to looking in a calm relaxed curious way - it helps me to think of it like a science project. I'm just examining, investigating and noting what I find.
You IMAGINE that there is a you, and you can lose control.
Yes I can see this.

Looking at my thoughts at how my thoughts arise completely automatically and knowing that my actions come from thoughts I can see that there has never been any control.
You IMAGINE all sorts of negative consequences of losing control.
Yes - but right now don't have that fear.
You IMAGINE that you might not be able to provide for yourself and for your family.
My immediate response to re-reading this now is that it is ridiculous. I might be able to provide for my family or I might not. If thoughts arise automatically (as they are doing now), then any actions taken are without control. The thoughts appear including the ones to take action and including the ones to plan and including the thoughts coming up now about things that have to be done later today.

The thoughts come up, sometimes go by unnoticed sometimes trigger an emotion and trigger the sense of I (I thought in imagination).

When I look I can't find any I who is doing the thinking. There are sensations in the face, and internal voice which speaks thoughts (I can hear it now speaking these words as I write). There is a feeling of doing - a muscular tension.

One thing I think that may have changed is my expectation that looking should result in feeling a certain way. Or even in a certain belief. That seems to produce tension. It seems to work better if I just look like a scientist (or a child) and report my findings.
You’ve painted a pretty fearful IMAGE of how seeing no self would be like.
Yes thanks Vivien I can clearly see that now.
And the problem is that you are not seeing that it’s YOUR IMAGINATION that you are afraid of, since you believe that this is not just a fantasy, but rather a fact.

Yes can see fear of losing control is a fantasy.
You IMAGINE that if you lose control then you won’t be able to control your life, and everything will go downhill.

Yes but it is a fantasy as you say. If I can refer to the past - in the past I did things - planned, looked after myself and family etc and from looking now I can see that all thoughts come up automatically from no-where. There is no effort to make thoughts - but emotions/the I thought/physical tension muscular tension can be added to the thought. So I don't know how thoughts are made or where they come from and I play no part in making them. I can't intend to make a thought ( I can intend to but the intention to make a thought comes up automatically).

Any sense of effort or tension or fear might comes up after the thought.

And those thoughts resulted in the actions I took. Right now thoughts are directing my actions - bu they are arising automatically so how could there be any loss of control.

And when I look for an I then all I find is my voice speaking in my head, muscular contractions, tension around the face and head and ... nothing else.

There what can be seen and heard and felt and there is thinking - imagination - words, images, emotions - including fear/joy/hope/excitement/depression/anger/resentment/love/pride etc etc.

You’ve created a fantasy and accepted it as a fact.
You are not seeing it as a fantasy, but rather you believe that it’s a fact.
You believe that seeing no self means losing control.
And since you believe that this is a fact, you are not seeing that it’s not true.
You behave as if this were the truth, as if indeed there were a you and you could lose control.
And this is indeed a fearful picture.
And you are afraid of this image.
You are afraid of your OWN IMAGINATION.

I agree and can see it now.
And since you are afraid and in a stress response to this fearful future picture, you are missing the most important point. You are missing the way out, the freedom out of this dangerous future scenario.
Yes I see this now.


This is just a FANTASY.

That it’s literally impossible to lose control. IMPOSSIBLE.
Since there is no you who could lose it.
There has NEVER EVER been a real Mike. NEVER.
So it’s literally impossible for Mike to lose control. Impossible.
yes I see.
And even in the moment of the fear of losing control, there is NO Mike, no you, no person having this fear.
Thanks Vivien. This is interesting and helpful to me.
You are literally afraid of your own imagination what you believe to be the facts of no-self.
But it’s not.
Yes I see.
But if you continue believing this fearful image, you are blocking yourself and cutting off from looking
I don't want to do this (continue to believe in a fearful fantasy).
See if there is an opening to letting go this image as a fact and be open to accept intellectually that control cannot be lost, since there is no Mike and has never been ever, who could lose anything.
Yes I think there is and if you are willing I would like to continue.


Best wishes, Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:59 am

Hi Mike,
Yes I think there is and if you are willing I would like to continue.
Of course, we can continue :) I’m glad you’ve found my comments useful.
I've reminded to stick to looking in a calm relaxed curious way - it helps me to think of it like a science project. I'm just examining, investigating and noting what I find.
Exactly! This is exactly how the investigation should be done. Both the notion of being a scientist who just discovered a strange new phenomenon and would like to know anything about it, and the notion of becoming like a little child who has no prior knowledge about anything and he is just curious to discover what and how things are, are excellent ways to approach this.

This investigation is not about life and death :) It’s not that serious :) Approaching it with curiosity and openness to discover something which has been unseen so far, is very good way to do it.
Looking at my thoughts at how my thoughts arise completely automatically and knowing that my actions come from thoughts I can see that there has never been any control.
Great :)

What I would like to ask you to investigate if there is any thought at all, any at all in your daily life that is done and not just noticed. So please incorporate this open curiosity into your everyday life, to see if you can find any thought that was made/done by someone, or all the thoughts (without exception) just happens on their own, and they are just noticed when they are ALREADY present.

Look as often as possible. Even if just for 10 seconds each. Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:54 am

Hi Vivien
his is exactly how the investigation should be done. Both the notion of being a scientist who just discovered a strange new phenomenon and would like to know anything about it,
Yes - will stick to this approach.
This investigation is not about life and death :) It’s not that serious :) Approaching it with curiosity and openness to discover something which has been unseen so far, is very good way to do it.
And this :)
What I would like to ask you to investigate if there is any thought at all, any at all in your daily life that is done and not just noticed. So please incorporate this open curiosity into your everyday life, to see if you can find any thought that was made/done by someone, or all the thoughts (without exception) just happens on their own, and they are just noticed when they are ALREADY present.

So far I cant find any thoughts that are done in any way. Yes they are all just noticed after they have arisen.

A lot of the time I notice a train of thoughts and as I notice it realize that it has been going on for some time. Some emotion triggered by the thought makes it noticeable (if that makes sense).

Sometimes I try to trace the thought back to where it started. I see that it pops up from nothing.

A lot of the thoughts are linked - one triggering another.

Some have the I feeling/thought attached more strongly.

And some have the intention feeling ( feeling that there is an I doing this) attached.

The thoughts have a kind of hypnotic effect on attention. Overall watching them feels like repeatedly waking up to realize thinking is going on then falling back into a trance then waking up again mid thought.

Iv'e tried paying close attention and trying to catch thoughts as they arise. Sometimes I can notice them as they pop up (I think) but there is no point where I can see that thoughts are made or done.

There is often a feeling of doing and of I linked to the thoughts. But when I look closely the thought comes before the doing feeling.

Will continue to look today :)

Thanks Mike

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:54 am

Hi Vivien
his is exactly how the investigation should be done. Both the notion of being a scientist who just discovered a strange new phenomenon and would like to know anything about it,
Yes - will stick to this approach.
This investigation is not about life and death :) It’s not that serious :) Approaching it with curiosity and openness to discover something which has been unseen so far, is very good way to do it.
And this :)
What I would like to ask you to investigate if there is any thought at all, any at all in your daily life that is done and not just noticed. So please incorporate this open curiosity into your everyday life, to see if you can find any thought that was made/done by someone, or all the thoughts (without exception) just happens on their own, and they are just noticed when they are ALREADY present.

So far I cant find any thoughts that are done in any way. Yes they are all just noticed after they have arisen.

A lot of the time I notice a train of thoughts and as I notice it realize that it has been going on for some time. Some emotion triggered by the thought makes it noticeable (if that makes sense).

Sometimes I try to trace the thought back to where it started. I see that it pops up from nothing.

A lot of the thoughts are linked - one triggering another.

Some have the I feeling/thought attached more strongly.

And some have the intention feeling ( feeling that there is an I doing this) attached.

The thoughts have a kind of hypnotic effect on attention. Overall watching them feels like repeatedly waking up to realize thinking is going on then falling back into a trance then waking up again mid thought.

Iv'e tried paying close attention and trying to catch thoughts as they arise. Sometimes I can notice them as they pop up (I think) but there is no point where I can see that thoughts are made or done.

There is often a feeling of doing and of I linked to the thoughts. But when I look closely the thought comes before the doing feeling.

Will continue to look today :)

Thanks Mike

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:54 am

Hi Vivien
his is exactly how the investigation should be done. Both the notion of being a scientist who just discovered a strange new phenomenon and would like to know anything about it,
Yes - will stick to this approach.
This investigation is not about life and death :) It’s not that serious :) Approaching it with curiosity and openness to discover something which has been unseen so far, is very good way to do it.
And this :)
What I would like to ask you to investigate if there is any thought at all, any at all in your daily life that is done and not just noticed. So please incorporate this open curiosity into your everyday life, to see if you can find any thought that was made/done by someone, or all the thoughts (without exception) just happens on their own, and they are just noticed when they are ALREADY present.

So far I cant find any thoughts that are done in any way. Yes they are all just noticed after they have arisen.

A lot of the time I notice a train of thoughts and as I notice it realize that it has been going on for some time. Some emotion triggered by the thought makes it noticeable (if that makes sense).

Sometimes I try to trace the thought back to where it started. I see that it pops up from nothing.

A lot of the thoughts are linked - one triggering another.

Some have the I feeling/thought attached more strongly.

And some have the intention feeling ( feeling that there is an I doing this) attached.

The thoughts have a kind of hypnotic effect on attention. Overall watching them feels like repeatedly waking up to realize thinking is going on then falling back into a trance then waking up again mid thought.

Iv'e tried paying close attention and trying to catch thoughts as they arise. Sometimes I can notice them as they pop up (I think) but there is no point where I can see that thoughts are made or done.

There is often a feeling of doing and of I linked to the thoughts. But when I look closely the thought comes before the doing feeling.

Will continue to look today :)

Thanks Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 am

Hi Mike,
The thoughts have a kind of hypnotic effect on attention. Overall watching them feels like repeatedly waking up to realize thinking is going on then falling back into a trance then waking up again mid thought.
We are literally dreaming with open eyes. Just notice how much of the time you are not in touch with what is actually happening, but rather participating in an internal movie as a main character.

And of course this movie is about me, about Mike. Mike is the main character.
Everything, in one way or another, is revolving around the me / Mike-character.
Can you see these?
And some have the intention feeling ( feeling that there is an I doing this) attached.
What is this intention feeling exactly? How is this ‘intention feeling’ felt or experienced?
Does it felt somewhere in the body?
Or is it totally made up, as a concept, as part of the thought movie?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:20 am

Hi Vivien

sorry I didn't reply yesterday - the site was down and then I found my password wasn't working and for some reason I didn't get the reset email until today.
We are literally dreaming with open eyes. Just notice how much of the time you are not in touch with what is actually happening, but rather participating in an internal movie as a main character.
Yes there was a lot of this yesterday. Had a social gathering with a lot of people I wasn't really looking forward to meeting. There were quite strong emotions which dragged my attention into Mike's melodrama story.

A
nd of course this movie is about me, about Mike. Mike is the main character.
Everything, in one way or another, is revolving around the me / Mike-character.
Yes I cans see this - looking at my thoughts yesterday and day before they are mostly about Mike and his story.
What is this intention feeling exactly? How is this ‘intention feeling’ felt or experienced?
Does it felt somewhere in the body?
Or is it totally made up, as a concept, as part of the thought movie?
It varies - moves around but its def a physical feeling - sometimes stronger or weaker. So a feeling of contraction in the jaw or temples or shoulders and even behind the eyes and with that some thoughts of making effort/needing to push to get whatever it is I want or don't want.

Thanks :)
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:05 am

Hi Mike,

Yes, there has been some technical issues with the site.
There were quite strong emotions which dragged my attention into Mike's melodrama story.
So is there a you outside of the story of Mike, who can be dragged into the story?
Where is this one that could be dragged into the story? – search for it everywhere
V: What is this intention feeling exactly? How is this ‘intention feeling’ felt or experienced?
Does it felt somewhere in the body?
Or is it totally made up, as a concept, as part of the thought movie?
M: It varies - moves around but its def a physical feeling - sometimes stronger or weaker. So a feeling of contraction in the jaw or temples or shoulders and even behind the eyes and with that some thoughts of making effort/needing to push to get whatever it is I want or don't want.
Please try not to bulk-reply. Always reply to each question one-by-one. Why? Because each question is a pointer for you where to look. And if you bulk-reply, it’s easy to miss some important pointers.

You’ve missed the last pointer:
Or is it totally made up, as a concept, as part of the thought movie?

Going back to you reply, so there are some thoughts of ‘making effort and needing push to whatever it is you want or don’t want”. So these are simply thoughts appearing. Can you see this?

And then there are some contracted sensations behind the eyes, in the jaws and temples and the shoulders. And these are nothing else, but sensations. Is this clear?

But does any of these contracted sensations suggest or communicate any way that they are ‘intention feelings’?
Do these sensations convey any meaning?
Do they come with any label?
Are they judging themselves to be ‘intention feelings’?
Or only thoughts making these claims and labelling these raw sensation of ‘intention feelings’?

Do you see where I am getting at? That ‘intention feeling’ as such cannot be felt, cannot be experienced, there are only simply some unpleasant contracted sensations emerging without any meaning whatsoever?

Do you see that these sensations are totally meaningless, and only thoughts try to dress them up with meaning? Or assign meaning to them?


Please be careful not just to think these through, but actually check in experience what is really going on.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:00 am

Hi VivIen
Yes, there has been some technical issues with the site.
There were quite strong emotions which dragged my attention into Mike's melodrama story.


So is there a you outside of the story of Mike, who can be dragged into the story?
Not that I can find - sitting now thoughts come up that trigger emotions - some of the emotions are more intense than others.
There is a thought that these emotions need attention. There are the usual sensations around the head and the face and a contraction behind the eyes and a thought that that is me and another thought that that I must deal with the emotions.

Also the voice commenting on everything - and a thought that says that voice is mine.

But no I cant find a separate me, controlling anything or being dragged into the story. (Just a thought about it and then various muscular contractions.)
Where is this one that could be dragged into the story? – search for it everywhere
I've had a good look :) I cant find the separate me - there is a sense of being dragged though. Of the emotions demanding attention. When I look though there is a thought - I don't want to be here, then an emotion like anger or fear then thoughts that the emotion needs attention and the problem needs dealing with, then muscular contractions int he body.

As far as I can see the I thought and the thought /belief in the I gets stronger when these strong emotions arise.

V: What is this intention feeling exactly? How is this ‘intention feeling’ felt or experienced?
Its muscular contraction again - in the forehead, the temples, around the eyes, and mouth the tongue pushign up against the roof of the mouth, the jaw and shoulders and right down through the middle of the body.

Along with thoughts about what must be done - and emotions.

It feels like there is a ball of contraction somewhere around the base of the tongue.
Does it felt somewhere in the body?
Yes its felt in the muscular contractions.

When I look these sensations are more obvious when I don't look - in the middle of some situation the attention is on the emotions and thoughts.
Or is it totally made up, as a concept, as part of the thought movie?
Thats interesting - there is a thought about making effort and thoughts and emotions about the situation of problem. There is a thought that Mike needs to make the effort and a thought belief about how hard or easy that will be - the muscular contractions are stronger if the thought says the problem is more difficult.

So is the intention feeling made up a concept part of a thought movie?

I can't find an I that is a separate doer, and the intention thought comes up on its own but there is still a thought / belief in intention that seems to persist.


Please try not to bulk-reply. Always reply to each question one-by-one. Why? Because each question is a pointer for you where to look. And if you bulk-reply, it’s easy to miss some important pointers.
ok sorry will try not to do this :)

Going back to you reply, so there are some thoughts of ‘making effort and needing push to whatever it is you want or don’t want”. So these are simply thoughts appearing. Can you see this?
Yes when I look.
And then there are some contracted sensations behind the eyes, in the jaws and temples and the shoulders. And these are nothing else, but sensations. Is this clear?
Yes again when I look
But does any of these contracted sensations suggest or communicate any way that they are ‘intention feelings’?



No they just come with the feelings. I can feel them now :) They are just there.

Do these sensations convey any meaning?

No - but when they are noticed thoughts arise saying for example this is too much, you're going to hurt yourself.

But no looking now I can see the sensations dont have a meaning but arise because of thoughts.
Do they come with any label?
Not in words but they are labelled as unhealthy, a sign of stress if strong, or just as part of effort - a sign that work is beign done.

Are they judging themselves to be ‘intention feelings’?
no def not.
Or only thoughts making these claims and labelling these raw sensation of ‘intention feelings’?
Yes thats it the thoughts interpret the senations.
Do you see where I am getting at? That ‘intention feeling’ as such cannot be felt, cannot be experienced, there are only simply some unpleasant contracted sensations emerging without any meaning whatsoever?
Yes I can see the sensations have no meaning - apart from what is given to them by thoughts. So its like this - thoughts come up about making effort - muscular contractions come up - and thoughts arise labeling those contractions as a sign of effort.
Do you see that these sensations are totally meaningless, and only thoughts try to dress them up with meaning? Or assign meaning to them?
Yes - the only objection that just popped up was that the sensations might be a sign of damage to the body.

I'll continue to look at this today

Thanks Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:47 am

Hi Mike,
I've had a good look :) I cant find the separate me - there is a sense of being dragged though.
Are you totally sure about this? How is the ‘sense of being dragged into thoughts’ is sensed?
By which of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling)?

As far as I can see the I thought and the thought /belief in the I gets stronger when these strong emotions arise.
Yes, this is how it is for all of us.
And why? Because we believe a thought!

Let’s say the thought appear “I am not good enough” – if you believe this thought, if you take it for granted, and you don’t see that this is nothing else than just an imagined sound/voice of the body, that this is just a thought and not reality, then the body responds accordingly, with unpleasant emotions and bodily sensations.
Thats interesting - there is a thought about making effort and thoughts and emotions about the situation of problem. There is a thought that Mike needs to make the effort and a thought belief about how hard or easy that will be - the muscular contractions are stronger if the thought says the problem is more difficult.
Exactly! And do you know why? Because you believe that thought. You believe that it will be hard, and since you don’t like hardship, there is a resistance to it, which results in contracted sensations.
No - but when they are noticed thoughts arise saying for example this is too much, you're going to hurt yourself.
But no looking now I can see the sensations dont have a meaning but arise because of thoughts.
Exactly. So what happens here? A thought / belief arises that if you allow yourself to feel these contracted sensations, then you can get hurt. But is this thought telling the truth?

Can a contracted sensation actually hurt you? Of course, it’s unpleasant, we are not denying that.

How do you know that the thought of ‘this is too much, you’re going to hurt yourself’ is the absolute truth?
Is it, is this thought the absolute truth?
Or maybe it’s not?


What happens if you don’t believe this thought, just for a few seconds?

What happens, if you switch your attention from thoughts, to actually feeling those sensations, while ignoring the stories about them?

Yes I can see the sensations have no meaning - apart from what is given to them by thoughts. So its like this - thoughts come up about making effort - muscular contractions come up - and thoughts arise labeling those contractions as a sign of effort.
Yes. So now you see how the mechanism works.
V: Do you see that these sensations are totally meaningless, and only thoughts try to dress them up with meaning? Or assign meaning to them?
M: Yes - the only objection that just popped up was that the sensations might be a sign of damage to the body.
That were true if you were in an actual physical danger. Like being chased by a lion. Or hit by a car.

But are you in an actual immediate danger in moment when those thoughts arise and you are lying in bed, or sitting on a chair in front of your laptop?

The problem is that if we don’t question our thoughts, but take them for granted, then those thoughts magically transforms a seemingly real threat, as if the body were an actual real threat, while in reality, all threat happens only in imagination, in thinking only. Can you see this?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
Posts: 81
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:02 am

Hi Vivien
I've had a good look :) I cant find the separate me - there is a sense of being dragged though.

Are you totally sure about this? How is the ‘sense of being dragged into thoughts’ is sensed?
ok I can see (looking now) that in a difficult situation thoughts come up like I don't to be here or he'she can't say that which trigger emotions which can be unpleasant (or they are intense and a thought comes up labeling them as unpleasant) - then another thought comes up saying you must turn away from these emotions, and yet another saying no you must deal with the problem and face the emotion.

The stronger the emotion the stronger the thought to turn away - but (thinking back to recent situations) there is another thought that saying you cant turn away - along with more physical contractions etc.
By which of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling)?

Nothing senses the dragging - its a thought labelling all the sensations and contractions - the tension comes from two or more opposing thoughts.

Can a contracted sensation actually hurt you? Of course, it’s unpleasant, we are not denying that.
Not right now - probably - but a thought comes up that they will damage my body over time (high blood pressure /physical stress etc)
How do you know that the thought of ‘this is too much, you’re going to hurt yourself’ is the absolute truth?
I don't :)
Is it, is this thought the absolute truth?
No its a thought I cant say anything about it being the absolute truth - it might be true or not.
What happens if you don’t believe this thought, just for a few seconds?
there's a feeling of relaxedness and the sensations become less threatening more interesting

What happens, if you switch your attention from thoughts, to actually feeling those sensations, while ignoring the stories about them?
Trying it just now the feelings dissipated - although they weren't that strong. When I look at the sensations alone at different times the response depends on the my attitude/thoughts about it (even if I'm trying to ignore the story).
Do you see that these sensations are totally meaningless, and only thoughts try to dress them up with meaning? Or assign meaning to them?
Do you see that these sensations are totally meaningless, and only thoughts try to dress them up with meaning? Or assign meaning to them?
M: Yes - the only objection that just popped up was that the sensations might be a sign of damage to the body.
That were true if you were in an actual physical danger. Like being chased by a lion. Or hit by a car.

But are you in an actual immediate danger in moment when those thoughts arise and you are lying in bed, or sitting on a chair in front of your laptop?

No real danger - lying on the bed :)
The problem is that if we don’t question our thoughts, but take them for granted, then those thoughts magically transforms a seemingly real threat, as if the body were an actual real threat, while in reality, all threat happens only in imagination, in thinking only. Can you see this?
Yes I can see there is no threat to the body - looking now in that situation its more of a psychological threat

Thanks Viven

ps

just wondering if I can ask you a couple of questions that keep popping into my mind? If there is no separate I that makes decisions who is deciding to do this process, and who or where is the I who is doing all the struggling and making all the effort? And how can I decide whether to make effort or not?

The thoughts arise based conditioning and the imagined self takes credit - then the thought to contact liberation unleashed arose without a self involved and all the other thoughts and actions that followed and all of our discussions are occurring with no doer/no self.

But at the same time effort or at least applying ourselves to regular looking is required...

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:37 am

Hi Mike,
V: Can a contracted sensation actually hurt you? Of course, it’s unpleasant, we are not denying that.
M: Not right now - probably - but a thought comes up that they will damage my body over time (high blood pressure /physical stress etc)
But do you see that not the original unpleasant sensation is causing the stress, but rather the THOUGHT that this could damage my body?
Do you see and FEEL the physical effects of the thought ‘this could damage my body’?
Do you see that this thought is oil to the fire?
V: What happens if you don’t believe this thought, just for a few seconds?
M: there's a feeling of relaxedness and the sensations become less threatening more interesting
Exactly! This shows that without adding oil to the fire, the fire lessens and it becomes just an interesting happening to observe.
V: What happens, if you switch your attention from thoughts, to actually feeling those sensations, while ignoring the stories about them?
M: Trying it just now the feelings dissipated –
Exactly!

Have you heard the expression of ‘what you resist persists’? This is very true.

If you resist something that is ALREADY present, like a contracted sensation, it becomes stronger and stays longer. Why? Because by resisting it, you flag it to be something of a big importance, something to really focus on. It’s not something to let it be and dissolve on its own. By resisting you are making it into a real big solid thing… and you train your subconscious to constantly watch out for it, so it will notice and produce this experience more often and more intensely.
If there is no separate I that makes decisions who is deciding to do this process
But what makes you think that there is someone or something deciding? Do you think that deciding needs a doer? What if THOUGHTS ABOUT deciding happens on their own?

Check this out throughout your day. Look as often as possible, especially when there is a sense of “I did this or that” or “I decided…”

Is there actually something or something making decisions, or there are only THOUGHTS appearing ABOUT decisions automatically, on their own?

and who or where is the I who is doing all the struggling and making all the effort?
What makes you think that in order for there being an effort, an efforter, or doer is needed?
Is this so? Or effort just happens on its own just as everything else?


And how can I decide whether to make effort or not?

And what makes you think that there is an I, who is making decisions?
Is there an actual I, self in experience making decisions?

Or thoughts ABOUT decision just happen automatically, on their own, without anything making them happen?

But at the same time effort or at least applying ourselves to regular looking is required...
But is there anything making effort and thus making looking to happen?
Or both efforting and looking happen automatically, on their own, EFFORTLESSLY?

Do you see that even effort happens EFFORTLESSLY, meaning automatically, on its own?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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