Guidance for deep looking

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:01 am

Hi Mike,
Vivien just wanted to say that I feel a bit stuck right now - I think there must be some resistance or fear somewhere because the feeling of a separate I needing to take control of life is still here.
Do you feel fear or resistance?
Is there any story or thoughts of fear or resistance?
because the feeling of a separate I needing to take control of life is still here
What do you mean exactly? That the belief in control is still there?
Or thoughts about wanting to control things are there?


Please write whatever comes up.

Are you managing what is happening?
Does wanting to control = control?
Are you managing wanting?
So can you lose control that you never had?
I'm determined to carry on.
I’m glad to hear that :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:40 am

Hi Vivien

Vivien just wanted to say that I feel a bit stuck right now - I think there must be some resistance or fear somewhere because the feeling of a separate I needing to take control of life is still here.

Do you feel fear or resistance?
I still feel there needs to be a separate me to take control of life (to get things done). It feels like being sucked back into a dream in some ways.

There is I think a fear of not being in control of events (needing to be financially secure, to have some friends, to look after family and protect my daughter, to have work I enjoy etc etc).

I fear what will happen if I don't pay attention to these problems (they will get worse). I've used the word I because when these problems come to mind I believe there is an I ( a controller, a separate me) and I fear disappearing.

I also think that its such a joke (all the suffering) if this is all happening automatically to no-one.

The fear isn't overwhelming. There is also strong desire to see reality.
What do you mean exactly? That the belief in control is still there?
Yes the belief in control is still there.

If I look now I can see thoughts and actions happening by themselves - but its as if I fall asleep later and actions and thoughts then need to be willed (usually when dealing with something I think is important or urgent).
Or thoughts about wanting to control things are there?
yes this as well.

Please write whatever comes up.

Are you managing what is happening?
ok I have a belief that I am managing problems - trying to solve them. Actually there is less of this than before and more just doing stuff (like tidying the house, looking after my daughter, going for a run or doing some reading for work etc. But there is also in the background thoughts and frustration about wanting to get other things done (like clearing up the garden, getting a more stable source of income and savings, getting some more friends (or not depending in my mood).

I have a feeling of there being a me who has to make an effort to manage this stuff ( mostly the things I want that are not happening).

Despite seeing that thoughts happen by themselves and that thoughts lead to actions (so there cant be control) I still don't believe it fully.
Does wanting to control = control?
No
Are you managing wanting?
No that's happening by itself - but I feel/believe that I can do things to reduce it.
So can you lose control that you never had?
I have a sense of relief reading this. I don't have control. There is no separate me to have control. Stuff happens.

No I can't lose control I never had. (But there's some nagging resistance/belief in that control).

thanks again Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:21 am

Hi Mike,
V: So can you lose control that you never had?
M: I have a sense of relief reading this. I don't have control. There is no separate me to have control. Stuff happens.
No I can't lose control I never had. (But there's some nagging resistance/belief in that control).
Isn’t that nagging belief just a thought in loop? Like a broken record? Just keep repeating itself?

Have you noticed that most of your thoughts are recycled? Meaning that many of our thoughts are the same thoughts again and again and again, day by day??
Like the thought of “there is a belief in control”?

Are you the thinker of the thought “there is a resistance or belief in control”?

Are you making this thought to appear? How?
How do you decide to think this thought?

Can you know in advance, BEFORE this thought appearing that you are going to think the thought of “I have a belief in control”?


Dig deep here. It’s not just a belief in control.
It’s a belief that I am the thinker too. But are you?
Have you ever thought any thought? Ever?
Or you just know or aware of thoughts when they happen (on their own)?
I fear what will happen if I don't pay attention to these problems (they will get worse).
You are assuming that when there is a paying attention to a particular problem then that is your doing.

But what if it’s not? What if paying attention and trying to solve problems have ALWAYS happened on their own? And the thought of “I did it” just been added AFTER?

What if you’ve never ever done anything in life?
If I look now I can see thoughts and actions happening by themselves - but its as if I fall asleep later and actions and thoughts then need to be willed (usually when dealing with something I think is important or urgent).
Dear Mike, actions never need to be willed. All actions happen on their own. And this has been always the case. You’ve never ever done anything. Ever.

The thought of “I’ve done it” is like a subtitle over a movie. Actions happen in the movie, but the actions are not done by the subtitle / narrative / thought.
The thought of “I’ve done it” is just a thought narration over action happening.
And this narration also just happens.

You assume that when there is the thought "it's important and urgent" then this is thought was thought by you.
That you had decided to think this thought BEFORE the thought appeared.
You assume that you are the author of thoughts. That you think whatever you want to think.
But all of these are just assumptions, which are thoughts appearing on their own too.

Don’t believe me. Just check this out.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:03 am

Hi Vivien
V: So can you lose control that you never had?
M: I have a sense of relief reading this. I don't have control. There is no separate me to have control. Stuff happens.
No I can't lose control I never had. (But there's some nagging resistance/belief in that control).

Isn’t that nagging belief just a thought in loop? Like a broken record? Just keep repeating itself?
Yes - it pops up on its own repeatedly.
Have you noticed that most of your thoughts are recycled? Meaning that many of our thoughts are the same thoughts again and again and again, day by day??
Yes
Like the thought of “there is a belief in control”?
yes
Are you the thinker of the thought “there is a resistance or belief in control”?

ok looking at it now. This morning I had some work cancelled which I may or may not get paid for - which led to thoughts about sorting out my finances together with together with thoughts about me doing it - making effort and some sensations of contraction.

the thoughts about sorting out my finances just happened. They popped up spontaneously no doubt about that. The I must make effort though/feeling/sensation followed spontaneously. They just appeared.

There are sensation labelled as me but when I look and ask is this you? (been doing a lot last few days) the clear answer is no.

The more I repeat this question - is this you? or Is this me (the controller, the inherent self) the more it sinks in.
Are you making this thought to appear? How?

No I am not making any thoughts appear.
How do you decide to think this thought?
I do not decide for it come up.
Can you know in advance, BEFORE this thought appearing that you are going to think the thought of “I have a belief in control”?
no def not.
Dig deep here. It’s not just a belief in control.
It’s a belief that I am the thinker too. But are you?
As I read this and start to write there is a thought yes that I am the thinker/writer doer.

But when I look for me I find physical sensations and emotions and more thoughts.

Sometimes the thoughts are fearful - what will happen if you let go.

When I ask is this you? (about the sensations/thoughts and emotions) I get the clear answer - no.

So I cannot find a thinker of the belief thoughts.

Have you ever thought any thought? Ever?
this thought produces some fear - (fear of disappearing).

When I look at the fear - its nothing really.

So far I have no evidence that I have thought anything. (saying this seems like a big statement but true).

As I write the I feeling is there and I forget this until i ask again - is this you (about the I thought/feeling).
Or you just know or aware of thoughts when they happen (on their own)?
Yes this is what I have found.
I fear what will happen if I don't pay attention to these problems (they will get worse).

You are assuming that when there is a paying attention to a particular problem then that is your doing.
Yes that exactly it
But what if it’s not? What if paying attention and trying to solve problems have ALWAYS happened on their own? And the thought of “I did it” just been added AFTER?

let me look at this some more - (I mean automatically solving problems)
The thought of “I’ve done it” is like a subtitle over a movie. Actions happen in the movie, but the actions are not done by the subtitle / narrative / thought.
The thought of “I’ve done it” is just a thought narration over action happening.
And this narration also just happens.

You assume that when there is the thought "it's important and urgent" then this is thought was thought by you.
That you had decided to think this thought BEFORE the thought appeared.
You assume that you are the author of thoughts. That you think whatever you want to think.
But all of these are just assumptions, which are thoughts appearing on their own too.

Don’t believe me. Just check this out.
yes yes I can see this is the problem. Let me look at this some more and get back to you :)



Thanks again Vivien,
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:05 am

Hi Mike,
The more I repeat this question - is this you? or Is this me (the controller, the inherent self) the more it sinks in.
Good. This needs to be seen many many times to really sink in.
V: But what if it’s not? What if paying attention and trying to solve problems have ALWAYS happened on their own? And the thought of “I did it” just been added AFTER?
M: let me look at this some more - (I mean automatically solving problems)
Yes, look into this more.
V: The thought of “I’ve done it” is like a subtitle over a movie. Actions happen in the movie, but the actions are not done by the subtitle / narrative / thought.
The thought of “I’ve done it” is just a thought narration over action happening.
And this narration also just happens.

You assume that when there is the thought "it's important and urgent" then this is thought was thought by you.
That you had decided to think this thought BEFORE the thought appeared.
You assume that you are the author of thoughts. That you think whatever you want to think.
But all of these are just assumptions, which are thoughts appearing on their own too.

Don’t believe me. Just check this out.
M: yes yes I can see this is the problem. Let me look at this some more and get back to you :)
Yes, look into this.

Mike, you cannot lose control you’ve never had.
Everything has ALWAYS happened on its own.

You don’t have to do anything for things to happen. Since things, decisions, actions have always happened automatically.

This is freedom! :)
There is nothing to do to be! :) Just enjoy the movie…

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:16 am

Hi Mike,

How is looking going? Are you still with me?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:44 am

Hi Vivien

Sorry its been a few days since replying - still looking :)


I think there are a couple of beliefs that are blocking me.

1 There is a belief that I am the thinker (as you said before). If I sit now and I can see thoughts come up by themselves and I don't know how I think them or how decisions are made. Some thoughts have a thoughts I doing this attached and a physical sensation labelled as effort.

I flip flop between seeing this and believing that I am the thinker and doer.

2. There is a belief that I am the seer / observer/ receiver of all this.

If I look now I can't find one - but then the thought comes up, I exist , seeing this.

I think part of the holding on to believing I am the thinker doer is the belief that a doer is required to look after my life problems even though I can't find one.

Not sure how to tackle this...

Would welcome your guidance :)

Thanks again,
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:24 am

Hi Mike,

It’s nice to hear from you. Just before your recent post, I sent you a private message. You can access it at the right corner at the top of the page under the Liberation Unleashed banner.
1 There is a belief that I am the thinker (as you said before). If I sit now and I can see thoughts come up by themselves and I don't know how I think them or how decisions are made.
But if you were the thinker of thoughts, it should be very clear how you do it. Just as it’s very clear what is the step-by-step process of making a cup of coffee. It’s very straightforward and obvious. There are no secrets and unseen or inaccessible steps.

If you don’t know how you think a thought, then it’s telling.

How could you do something without knowing how you do it?
2. There is a belief that I am the seer / observer/ receiver of all this.
If I look now I can't find one - but then the thought comes up, I exist , seeing this.
Seeing that there is no inherent self with autonomy and volition does not equate to the notion that I don’t exist.
You exist, just not in a way you thought you were.

Saying that I don’t exist is the denial of existence, which is clearly not the case.
We cannot deny that there is existence, that something is going on.

So, yes, you exist, but not as a person, not as an independent entity with volition, separate from life.
I think part of the holding on to believing I am the thinker doer is the belief that a doer is required to look after my life problems even though I can't find one.
Look carefully. Is there an actual doer to take care of life?
Or taking care of life and problems happens on its own?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:52 am

Hi Vivien

thanks for the pm :) I'll message you back.
1 There is a belief that I am the thinker (as you said before). If I sit now and I can see thoughts come up by themselves and I don't know how I think them or how decisions are made.

But if you were the thinker of thoughts, it should be very clear how you do it. Just as it’s very clear what is the step-by-step process of making a cup of coffee. It’s very straightforward and obvious. There are no secrets and unseen or inaccessible steps.

If you don’t know how you think a thought, then it’s telling.

How could you do something without knowing how you do it?

I've been looking at thoughts and asking how did you think that? Or how did you think this? The answer is always I have no idea (whatever the thought).
But if you were the thinker of thoughts, it should be very clear how you do it. Just as it’s very clear what is the step-by-step process of making a cup of coffee. It’s very straightforward and obvious. There are no secrets and unseen or inaccessible steps.
there is some resistance to this though - I can see that I don't know how thoughts are made. I am not even aware of them until they have been running for a while. But I sometimes get a thought that still believes there is something hidden or that maybe I wouldn't be able to see the process by which I make thoughts (this sounds a bit stupid but that is one thought that is blocking accepting this).

When I ask the question repeatedly though - how did you think that? It gets more obvious that I have no idea how thoughts are being made and don't know whats coming next. This sometimes makes me laugh.
So, yes, you exist, but not as a person, not as an independent entity with volition, separate from life.
I think part of the holding on to believing I am the thinker doer is the belief that a doer is required to look after my life problems even though I can't find one.

Look carefully. Is there an actual doer to take care of life?
Or taking care of life and problems happens on its own?
oK thanks Vivien - can I ask how I exist - as what? Or is this something that cannot be understood or appreciated with thought?

Thanks again,
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:05 am

Hi Mike,
there is some resistance to this though - I can see that I don't know how thoughts are made. I am not even aware of them until they have been running for a while. But I sometimes get a thought that still believes there is something hidden or that maybe I wouldn't be able to see the process by which I make thoughts (this sounds a bit stupid but that is one thought that is blocking accepting this).
There is no certainty, because you probably cannot see thoughts when they are present. When you can clearly see a thought in the very moment when it’s there, then it’s obvious that it’s not your doing. Since all possible hidden-ness is just a story appearing as a thought, which can be seen / noticed in the very moment when it arises.
When I ask the question repeatedly though - how did you think that? It gets more obvious that I have no idea how thoughts are being made and don't know whats coming next. This sometimes makes me laugh.
That’s good. :)
But we have to dig deeper, to be able to see thoughts in the moment when they appear, and not just think about them in retrospect, if I made that happen or not.
oK thanks Vivien - can I ask how I exist - as what? Or is this something that cannot be understood or appreciated with thought?
The thing is that whatever I would reply to that that would be just a belief for you. This is something that you need to see if for yourself as a first-hand experience. And yes, it cannot be known through thoughts.

You exist BEFORE any thoughts.

Let’s put aside any notion of control for now, and just focus on thoughts. Seeing thoughts for what they are is essential.
So I’m going to give you only one exercise.

Just sit and do nothing, except watch as thoughts come and go.
Your only job is just to notice both visual and verbal thoughts as they appear and disappear.
Just watch thoughts, as if you were watching a movie.
Let me what you discover.

Repeat this as often as possible, even if for just 10-20 seconds. Stop many-many times during the day to notice thoughts.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:38 am

Hi Vivien
let’s put aside any notion of control for now, and just focus on thoughts. Seeing thoughts for what they are is essential.
So I’m going to give you only one exercise.

Just sit and do nothing, except watch as thoughts come and go.
Your only job is just to notice both visual and verbal thoughts as they appear and disappear.
Just watch thoughts, as if you were watching a movie.
Let me what you discover.
Have been doing this often during the last few days - here's what I've found :)


1 - thoughts keep coming non stop. at first when I try to look at them I usually catch them after they've
been running for a while. Usually then its some emotion that catches my attention.

2. When a particular chain of thoughts is noticed it tends to stop.

3. When I try to go deeper and catch thoughts as they arise I keep often miss the thoughts. Subtle less obvious thoughts slip by my attention and then are noticed later. When they are noticed they usually/?always stop.

4. Sometimes I get closer to the origin of a particular thought and can see it emerge - but I realize its not really the origin. There is a continuous bubbling of non verbalized thoughts all the time as far as I can tell.

5. When I focus intently coarser thoughts seem to stop briefly.

6. The content of the thoughts are stories often starring me. I might be winning an argument with someone, or replaying some event that I was either happy with or upset by or planning or worrying about future events. Some of this is in the form of movies playing.

7. My thoughts are linked with a sense of being driven. The thinking continues until there is a feeling of resolution or they are interrupted by external events. They often feel pressured/driven.

Many thanks Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:55 am

Hi Mike,
6. The content of the thoughts are stories often starring me. I might be winning an argument with someone, or replaying some event that I was either happy with or upset by or planning or worrying about future events. Some of this is in the form of movies playing.
Yes, nice observations. This is how almost all humans live their lives.

This inner movie you’ve discovered is the source of our suffering. Since when this movie happens, we take it for granted, as if it were actually real, and happening here and now. And as a result, the associated emotions arise. And since the majority of these movies are unpleasant or stressful, we feel bad.

So just keep noticing how often you are lost in watching these internal movies and taking them seriously.

And how can you know that you’ve taken a movie or a thought seriously? By the unpleasant sensations and emotions that arise.
4. Sometimes I get closer to the origin of a particular thought and can see it emerge - but I realize its not really the origin. There is a continuous bubbling of non verbalized thoughts all the time as far as I can tell.
In what form or shape a non-verbalized thought appear?
7. My thoughts are linked with a sense of being driven. The thinking continues until there is a feeling of resolution or they are interrupted by external events. They often feel pressured/driven.
Try to catch any moment when this ‘sense of being driven’ is there. And when you notice it, then hold your focus on it. Imagine that you are scientist, who just discovered a peculiar phenomenon, and you would like to know it better. You put in under a microscope to really look at it.

So what can you discover about this ‘sense of being driven-ness’?
How does it show up? As a thought? As a sensation? Or both?
At which part of the body shows up?
How does it feel?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:52 am

Hi Vivien
So just keep noticing how often you are lost in watching these internal movies and taking them seriously.

And how can you know that you’ve taken a movie or a thought seriously? By the unpleasant sensations and emotions that arise.
In that case often :) Thoughts about work, worries about future etc all produce unpleasant sensations and emotions throughout the day - they may be fleeting or hang around for a while - and vary in intensity.
4. Sometimes I get closer to the origin of a particular thought and can see it emerge - but I realize its not really the origin. There is a continuous bubbling of non verbalized thoughts all the time as far as I can tell.

In what form or shape a non-verbalized thought appear?
Its a bit like dreaming thoughts - bits of random stories playing in the background then one gets picked up and gets more attention (usually because it triggers an emotion).

Its similar to when thoughts are running about something and a song (that I might have heard on the radio) is playing in my head.

The background thoughts could be images or actually verbal (but not clear) and there are some physical sensations.

So what can you discover about this ‘sense of being driven-ness’?
How does it show up? As a thought? As a sensation? Or both?
At which part of the body shows up?
This shows up as physical sensations tightness or contraction in the neck , tension in the arms and shoulders and a slight thrusting forward of the head.

The more driven the faster thoughts go.

Thoughts say (again not clearly in words) I have to do x, y z . Have to do it well. Don't want to look bad etc.

How does it feel?
Sometimes there is a thoughts - this is good I'm getting things done (not in words as such).

But if the driven sensation/feeling persists for any time it becomes unpleasant and tiring - eventually exhausting.

Thnaks again,
Vivien

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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:07 am

Hi Mike,
V: So what can you discover about this ‘sense of being driven-ness’?
How does it show up? As a thought? As a sensation? Or both?
At which part of the body shows up?
M: This shows up as physical sensations tightness or contraction in the neck , tension in the arms and shoulders and a slight thrusting forward of the head.
The more driven the faster thoughts go.
OK, let’s look at what happens here.

So there are some felt sensations, tightness and contraction.
But these are just sensations.

Just check, if you ignore all thoughts, do these unpleasant contracted sensations communicate anything?

Do these sensation say or suggest in any way that “hey, I’m the sense of being driven”?
Or only verbal thoughts (in a form of words) label these sensations as such?

The more driven the faster thoughts go.
It seems that you assume that the ‘more driven these sensations’ the faster thoughts go.
But actually, it’s the other way around.

The more thoughts are there, the stronger the bodily contractions and unpleasant sensations.
Can you see this?

Can you see that these unpleasant contractions are the RESULT of stressful or worrisome thoughts?

Thoughts say (again not clearly in words) I have to do x, y z . Have to do it well. Don't want to look bad etc.
But if there is a thought that “I have to do this or that”, that is already a verbal thought, in order words, words.
Without words, there are no have-to-s.

You might not see it now, since you cannot see these as arising thoughts, since your focus is narrowed down into their contents, so you take these thoughts very seriously.

And when we take a thought seriously, then we cannot actually see what this thought actually is.

How else could a thought communicate that “I have to do it well” or that “I don’t want to look bad” without words?

It’s simply not possible to convey this without words (verbal thoughts).
Sometimes there is a thoughts - this is good I'm getting things done (not in words as such).
Without words it’s not possible to have the idea that “this is good, I’m getting things done”.
Since all of these are just concepts, and concepts are coming from language (words).

Look closely.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:02 am

Hi Vivien
So there are some felt sensations, tightness and contraction.
But these are just sensations.

Just check, if you ignore all thoughts, do these unpleasant contracted sensations communicate anything?

Do these sensation say or suggest in any way that “hey, I’m the sense of being driven”?
Or only verbal thoughts (in a form of words) label these sensations as such?
Looking now I can see that the sensations themselves don't say anything - yes its a label added (but very firmly/strongly added :)

So yes the sensation of the neck thrusting forward or contraction in the neck/head/tongue area and shoulders just are. Yes when I look closely I can see this.
It seems that you assume that the ‘more driven these sensations’ the faster thoughts go.
But actually, it’s the other way around.

The more thoughts are there, the stronger the bodily contractions and unpleasant sensations.

Can you see this?
yes I can see that thoughts trigger these sensations for sure.
Can you see that these unpleasant contractions are the RESULT of stressful or worrisome thoughts?
yes that is clear
But if there is a thought that “I have to do this or that”, that is already a verbal thought, in order words, words.
Without words, there are no have-to-s.

You might not see it now, since you cannot see these as arising thoughts, since your focus is narrowed down into their contents, so you take these thoughts very seriously.

And when we take a thought seriously, then we cannot actually see what this thought actually is.

How else could a thought communicate that “I have to do it well” or that “I don’t want to look bad” without words?
Sometimes I find myself in a situation where anxiety (or sensations I label as anxiety) jump up without any verbal thoughts (that i am aware of). For example someone might say something to me at work that triggers sensations. At the time there are no words (that I am aware of) saying this is fear/anxiety or anything else - just the immediate reaction. I feel physical sensation also after the expression in another person's face changes.

There might be some verbal thoughts there that I am not aware of (too fast to follow?) - but it seems to be that there is a trigger (like someone saying something or the change in a facial expression that triggers these sensations following some kind of judgement or labeling of what I'm seeing as good or bad. It all seems to happen in an instant so maybe that's why I'm not aware of any words?

Still looking ...

Thanks again Mike


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