Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

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Seamist
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seamist » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:07 pm

Hi Alex
This is wonderful exploring! Excellent!
Next:
Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sound in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is. I'll refer to it add "what can be heard".
1. In "hearing" can anything be found other than "what can be heard"?
2. Can what is doing the hearung be found? Or is there only "what can be heard"?
3. An "I"? a "body"? a "person"? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just "what can be heard"?
What do you find?
4. Can an inherent hearer be found? Worked anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Xx

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Seeker2019
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seeker2019 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:12 pm

Hearing is an event that happens, there is a lot happening in response to it.

In hearing is only "what can be heard". What is doing the hearing can not be found. No person, no ears, no brain. But with the hearing arises this sense of a hearer. This sense is not in the hearing, but seems to arise from the hearing.

An inherent hearer can not be found. But there is a feeling of an observer, but I can't pin it down. Sometimes it feels like hearing is connected with a certain place in the head. But this it not part hearing.

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Seamist
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seamist » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:07 pm

Can the observer be found in direct experience?
Xx

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Seeker2019
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seeker2019 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:20 pm

No, just the thought it must be there. The feeling ITV s there. But in direct experience it's not findable. It's frustrating and I feel like I am banging my head against a wall, there is still this feeling, still this believe and I can't let go. Again I will step back a bit and have patience and try not to get stuck in this. I feel I need to try harder and push deeper into this, but I don't think that is helpful.

I believe holding it lightly, just holding the contradiction that I can't find it but still believe there is an observer and being ok with that is better than going on a frantic search. I try to be gentle, as I know from experience that pushing too much is making be exhausted and frustrated.

I just feel close to "getting it" sometimes and then it falls apart again

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Seamist
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seamist » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:39 pm

Dear Alex
You are absolutely right about not pushing too hard! Gentle exploration is more what is required.
Next...
Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any "mental" images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.
Place a hand on a desk or table and close your eyes.
Now go to the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as "hand on desk" and answer from what your can find.
1. How many things do you find? Are there 2 things (hand and desk) or is there one thing - sensation?
2. Can a "feeler" be found in "what is being felt"?
3. Do you notice "one thing" feeling "another thing"? Or is there just a sensation?
4. Do you find an "I", a body, a hands "feeling_.. or is there just a sensation? What do you find?
5. Can an inherent feeler be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/ideas/thought?

Xx

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Seeker2019
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seeker2019 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:57 pm

When I look at it in direct experience, there is only feeling. No feeler, no hand that feels, no object that is felt. Only the sensation.

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Seamist
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seamist » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:16 pm

Fantastic, Alex!

Try this:
Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
Is there a link between the two?

2.Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

xx

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Seeker2019
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seeker2019 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:29 am

Hey Sioned,

I had written a reply a couple of days ago, but it seems it didn't get posted.

Thought and body sensations are separate. They don't know each other. Thoughts can be about sensations, or sensations can be caused by thoughts. So is there something else that connects them?

It seems like a real balance is not achievable. I can switch back and forth and try to balance it this way, but not look at both at the same time

Xx

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Seamist
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seamist » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:20 am

Hi Alex
Good to hear from you.
Thought and body sensations are separate. They don't know each other. Thoughts can be about sensations, or sensations can be caused by thoughts. So is there something else that connects them?
Yes - what would you say yourself in answer to your question?
It seems like a real balance is not achievable. I can switch back and forth and try to balance it this way, but not look at both at the same time
that's right - if we're in thinking, we can't really be in sensation (or direct experience). Does that make sense to you?
xx

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Seeker2019
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seeker2019 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:11 pm

Thought and body sensations are separate. They don't know each other. Thoughts can be about sensations, or sensations can be caused by thoughts. So is there something else that connects them?
Yes - what would you say yourself in answer to your question?
Logic says there must be. Something "produces" thoughts and if they are about sensations, the "something" must "know" sensations. But this does not mean it is a thing! It can be a process as much as As "something" produces a sensation of pain when I stub my toe. The toe does not know what hit it. Also, this "something" which can be not a thing, is not me. I can't find it.
that's right - if we're in thinking, we can't really be in sensation (or direct experience). Does that make sense to you?
Yes.

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Seamist
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seamist » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:48 pm

Good looking, well done Alex
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

x

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Seeker2019
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seeker2019 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:24 pm

Sioned,

There is only the present moment, it does not become past, and future never becomes present. It does not begin, it does not end!
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
No, there is no transition
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
No, morning direct experience
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
It does not move, it unfolds
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
There is no beginning, it does not end, and "now" never becomes past. There is only now.
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
Just an experience of thoughts: mental talk and mental images.
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Wow. There is no experience of time, just thoughts

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Seamist
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seamist » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:12 pm

That's wonderful, Alex, lovely!
On the same theme, explore:
Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.
Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.
What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

xx

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Seeker2019
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seeker2019 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:13 am

A thought is always made of the same: a thought about past or future or a non memory, non future thought are made of the same: verbal mental talk, mental images. They are not direct experience, and whether I remember something that has happened or imagine something happening now or later, they are imagined, like we did with imagining a spoon or being in a room. It is not direct experience. What is direct is that they happen now. Always now. Remembering is happening now, not in the past. So what is special about a memory or imagining the future? There is another thought that says: this is memory, this is past, or I had this memory before. That can become strong if "the same memory", is remembered often. But it is just that a thought is happening that is recognized by thinking: "I experienced this, and I experienced often that I thought I experienced it. So it feeds on itself, strengthens itself. The difference between memory, a thought about the past, and a thought about the future is only that thoughts comment differently: this was, this will/might be. There isn't a no difference other than content of thoughts about it. These thoughts that tell me the difference between thoughts about the past or future are not really different: the difference is what they say, difference is in the content. But this is the same difference between thinking about a ball or a table, just different content.

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Seamist
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Re: Looking for guidance - am tired of the cycle of becoming

Postby Seamist » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:38 pm

Great answer, Alex
Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "Alex" is located.
Touch the exact location of "Alex".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "Alex" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Alex” (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

xx


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