I want to see what is true

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Lagrange901
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I want to see what is true

Postby Lagrange901 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:41 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self, the person I imagine to be, is not real, it is only a thought, it comes and goes, so it has no reality of it's own.
Seeing that there is no real self means realizing that it is no more than a thought, and that I am not that thought, contrary to what I believed most of my life and apparently still believe.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for someone to help me by asking the right questions, to help me see what is true about myself. I want to come back from the land of imagination to the actuality of the present moment and let go of all the beliefs that made me the prisoner of my own mind.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be asked questions about this inquiry, to be given exercises to do, I would like to post daily if possible.
The end result would be me seeing the truth about the 'self', whatever it will be, I just expect to see what is true about who I am.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have meditated before, I've read a lot about non-duality/religion, after an experience this spring that now feels like a forgotten dream, now I know that what I have seen, will never be lost, even if it may seem lost or forgotten.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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forgetmenot
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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:15 am

Hi Lagrange,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

How would you like to be called?

Here are some links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links, looked at how to use the quote function and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Lagrange901
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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby Lagrange901 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:44 pm

Hello Kay, thank you for helping me.
How would you like to be called?
You can call me Anders.
Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links, looked at how to use the quote function and we can then begin the exploration.
Yes I've read them all, we can begin!

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forgetmenot
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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:42 am

Hi Anders!

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and learning how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Lagrange901
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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby Lagrange901 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:00 pm

How will life change?
I have this expectation that all fears will disappear once the illusion of self is seen through, I believe that all fears stem from the fear of death, and if the fear of death goes away, all fears will go away. I don't know if this will happen, but I've seen that I'm expecting this somehow.

Life will be more peaceful ? Maybe I will be able to see things from another perspective than ego ? I don't really know how life will change, for me the questions about how life will change and how I will change are the same.

But I am ready to give up those expectations, I only want the truth about myself.
How will you change?
Maybe I won't get triggered by what others say anymore because the seeing of no-self will remind me that there is nothing to defend.

Another expectation of how I will change is the end of unconscious patterns, things that I do mechanically without even noticing, things that my mind may not like after realizing they've been done.
What will be different?
I won't feel prisoner of my own thoughts anymore, because I won't identify with them.
What is missing?
Being connected to what is always true and living from that point of truth and not of lies fabricated to sustain an illusion.

From an AE point of view, I feel like eternity is missing, once I've had an experience where I've seen that this is all eternal, hard to describe, I don't even know what I've seen to be honest, all I know is that I felt that this won't ever go away, and that regardless of what will happen in experience, I will never lose that invisible thing that I cannot describe. But it was peaceful, and maybe I miss that peace.

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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:11 pm

Hi Anders,

The purpose of these questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what having the realisation of ‘no self’ may look and feel like. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of the exploration and can even blind side the fact that the realisation has happened. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this exploration. When desired outcomes to expectations are not met, fear, anger, resistance, resentment, frustration etc can arise. Also note that these emotions will arise during our exploration as we investigate beliefs that are not true. When they do, please let me know so that we can look at them together.

I would like you to read my responses and let me know your thoughts and let me know what arises for you eg fear, anger, resistance and so on.
How will life change?
I have this expectation that all fears will disappear once the illusion of self is seen through, I believe that all fears stem from the fear of death, and if the fear of death goes away, all fears will go away. I don't know if this will happen, but I've seen that I'm expecting this somehow.
Both fear and death are concepts and concepts will continue to appear. There is a difference between a concept and a belief. Concepts are not a problem, however beliefs are. Why? Because a belief refers to concepts, such as fear, as if they are something real. We will be investigating many concepts and beliefs.
Life will be more peaceful ? Maybe I will be able to see things from another perspective than ego ? I don't really know how life will change, for me the questions about how life will change and how I will change are the same.
There is no such thing as an ego. Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes after awakening.

A lot of what we are exploring, becomes and intellectual understanding…which is like planting seeds. As you continue on LOOKING after this guiding, the planted seeds do eventually bring the ‘aha’ moments ie insights in which intellectual knowledge becomes a knowing and not just knowledge.
But I am ready to give up those expectations, I only want the truth about myself.
Good to know :)
How will you change?
Maybe I won't get triggered by what others say anymore because the seeing of no-self will remind me that there is nothing to defend.

Another expectation of how I will change is the end of unconscious patterns, things that I do mechanically without even noticing, things that my mind may not like after realizing they've been done.
There would have to be a ‘you’ who can be triggered for triggering to happen. But this will become clear as we move through this exploration.
What will be different?
I won't feel prisoner of my own thoughts anymore, because I won't identify with them.
Thoughts are not what they claim to be and there is no one who can or is identifying with thoughts. This will become clear, so don't worry about it now :)
What is missing?
Being connected to what is always true and living from that point of truth and not of lies fabricated to sustain an illusion.

From an AE point of view, I feel like eternity is missing, once I've had an experience where I've seen that this is all eternal, hard to describe, I don't even know what I've seen to be honest, all I know is that I felt that this won't ever go away, and that regardless of what will happen in experience, I will never lose that invisible thing that I cannot describe. But it was peaceful, and maybe I miss that peace.
Experiences within the dream come and go. We are not looking for experiences with this exploration. We are simply LOOKING for evidence to see if a separate self actually exists. It is the continual LOOKING and not finding of this so called self that brings the realisation that never has existed.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Lagrange901
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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby Lagrange901 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:46 pm

Both fear and death are concepts and concepts will continue to appear. There is a difference between a concept and a belief. Concepts are not a problem, however beliefs are. Why? Because a belief refers to concepts, such as fear, as if they are something real. We will be investigating many concepts and beliefs.
Yes, there is only the belief that death exists, concepts will appear like thoughts, I have no problem with thoughts appearing or their contents, they are coming and going so they cannot be me. I feel no anger or resistance.
There is no such thing as an ego. Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes after awakening.

A lot of what we are exploring, becomes and intellectual understanding…which is like planting seeds. As you continue on LOOKING after this guiding, the planted seeds do eventually bring the ‘aha’ moments ie insights in which intellectual knowledge becomes a knowing and not just knowledge.
"ego" is just another concept which I can believe or not. I see that "my" body is doing everything on it's own, including typing right now, without me controlling it. It's just happening, like breathing, the heart beating, I'm not telling it what to do, same with thoughts, I have no control over them, they just appear and disappear and I am witnessing them, sometimes I believe them and I get emotional, but this doesn't change that they always come and go.

-----------------------------------------------

Last night I was looking and I've felt this strong sense that the "self" in which I believe, resides somewhere behind the eyes, in the head. I couldn't let go of that centralized point of view, everything was being seen from inside the skull.

When I relax my awareness, and I stop searching for a "me", the sense of me disappears and I become the seeing, but after a short while I get back to this focusing on a self, the identification with the body and all that.

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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:03 am

Hello Anders,
Both fear and death are concepts and concepts will continue to appear. There is a difference between a concept and a belief. Concepts are not a problem, however beliefs are. Why? Because a belief refers to concepts, such as fear, as if they are something real. We will be investigating many concepts and beliefs.
Yes, there is only the belief that death exists, concepts will appear like thoughts, I have no problem with thoughts appearing or their contents, they are coming and going so they cannot be me. I feel no anger or resistance.
And really, there are no beliefs. There would have to be a someone who believes in beliefs! Beliefs are simply thoughts that have been labelled ‘beliefs’.
"ego" is just another concept which I can believe or not. I see that "my" body is doing everything on it's own, including typing right now, without me controlling it. It's just happening, like breathing, the heart beating, I'm not telling it what to do, same with thoughts, I have no control over them, they just appear and disappear and I am witnessing them, sometimes I believe them and I get emotional, but this doesn't change that they always come and go.
Great!
Last night I was looking and I've felt this strong sense that the "self" in which I believe, resides somewhere behind the eyes, in the head. I couldn't let go of that centralized point of view, everything was being seen from inside the skull.
We will look at this shortly. First we become aware of what actual experience (AE) is and how to LOOK.
When I relax my awareness, and I stop searching for a "me", the sense of me disappears and I become the seeing, but after a short while I get back to this focusing on a self, the identification with the body and all that.
Did you look to see if you find a someone/me who “focusing on a self” and who is identifying with a body? If you don’t constantly LOOK and look at times like this…then chasing the tail will continue to happen.

As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

You are looking at the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Lagrange901
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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby Lagrange901 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:15 am

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
I heard the computer fans running. After a little while listening, thoughts about random things began to arise, completely random.

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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:23 am

Hey Anders,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
I heard the computer fans running. After a little while listening, thoughts about random things began to arise, completely random.
Great! Now redo Part I of the exercise, and then look carefully at what I am pointing to with the following questions. Please answer from looking at actual experience only (ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation), and not with an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is a "computer fan running"? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is a "computer fan"?
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is a "computer fan running" or is it thought that suggests it?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘computer fan running’? Is it smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Lagrange901
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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby Lagrange901 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:38 pm

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is a "computer fan running"?
The computer fan running is a thought that appears after the sound is heard, immediately after, even the fact that it is a "sound" is a thought.
what is it that suggests the sound is a "computer fan"?
A thought.
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is a "computer fan running" or is it thought that suggests it?
The sound is just a sound, thoughts appear after it is heard, labeling it as a sound of a computer.
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘computer fan running’? Is it smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?
The actual experience of the computer fan running is a thought, without that thought the actual experience is a sound.

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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:53 pm

Hey Anders,
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is a "computer fan running"?
The computer fan running is a thought that appears after the sound is heard, immediately after, even the fact that it is a "sound" is a thought.
Lovely, yes! Experience simply IS. Thought is not only labelling it as ‘sound’ but then further overlays raw experience with a story about it being a computer fan running.
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is a "computer fan running" or is it thought that suggests it?
The sound is just a sound, thoughts appear after it is heard, labeling it as a sound of a computer.
Yep :)
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘computer fan running’? Is it smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?
The actual experience of the computer fan running is a thought, without that thought the actual experience is a sound.
Nice! I am happy to see that you have already picked up on the fact that the AE of “computer fan running” is thought, because without thought, that could not be known. It is simply raw experience which thought is labelling as ‘sound’.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Lagrange901
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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby Lagrange901 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:47 pm

Hello Kay.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
There is the thought of an apple, and there is color, but in the actual experience this is not a thought, so the apple cannot be found in actual experience, it's only a thought. Even the fact that I am holding "some object" is a thought.
The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
The apple is known only as a thought, an actual apple does not exist.
There is only color and sensation that triggers the thought 'apple', but there is no apple because even the apple in your image triggers the thought apple, a group of pixels on a screen which is very different from the 'fruit' I hold.

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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:45 am

Hi Anders,
However, is an apple actually known?
The apple is known only as a thought, an actual apple does not exist.
There is only color and sensation that triggers the thought 'apple', but there is no apple because even the apple in your image triggers the thought apple, a group of pixels on a screen which is very different from the 'fruit' I hold.
How is it known that the colour labelled as 'apple' and the colour labelled as 'picture of an apple' are very different? When you look at colour labelled 'apple' and colour labelled as 'picture of an apple', what is the AE of both of them?

Hold the ‘real’ apple in between the palm of both hands. Now close your eyes and IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of apple and hands. What is the actual experience?


To ensure that AE is crystal clear, I would like you to do the following exercise please. I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Lagrange901
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Re: I want to see what is true

Postby Lagrange901 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:14 pm

How is it known that the colour labelled as 'apple' and the colour labelled as 'picture of an apple' are very different?
There is a thought saying it.
When you look at colour labelled 'apple' and colour labelled as 'picture of an apple', what is the AE of both of them?
The actual experience is colour, no more than that, anything else is thought.
Hold the ‘real’ apple in between the palm of both hands. Now close your eyes and IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of apple and hands. What is the actual experience?
It's pure sensation.
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.
Yes I will start doing this exercise,
when I am eating, before and after the thought of how good the food is, there is just taste and sensation.
When I look at the clouds, there is seeing mixed with thoughts, but the seeing is not bothered by the thoughts.
I will update you on other exercises that I do.
Thank you Kay.


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