The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:38 pm

It was an interesting video, & please send another when appropriate.

But it is the work we have done together that convinces more about responsibility. Everything I have unpacked tells me that we are not responsible.

It still doesn’t FEEL like that though, and my mind is still very much in resistance. But I do feel it weakening.

I can only assume that the rest of me just needs a little time to get used to the idea that I am not in control, & I am not responsible.

I see the concepts of good & bad fading but positive & negative as a very real experience, is still very much there.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:04 pm

But it is the work we have done together that convinces more about responsibility. Everything I have unpacked tells me that we are not responsible.
It still doesn’t FEEL like that though, and my mind is still very much in resistance. But I do feel it weakening.
This is an interesting bit, look at the FEEL. Is it a feeling/sensation like the word suggests or is it something else?
I see the concepts of good & bad fading but positive & negative as a very real experience, is still very much there.
Where does the attributes positive and negative come from?

And here is your sunday video. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DphlhmtGRqI rubber hand
Share what happened when you watched this.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:27 am

But it is the work we have done together that convinces more about responsibility. Everything I have unpacked tells me that we are not responsible.
It still doesn’t FEEL like that though, and my mind is still very much in resistance. But I do feel it weakening.
This is an interesting bit, look at the FEEL. Is it a feeling/sensation like the word suggests or is it something else?

Doubt.
I say out loud “I am not responsible, how can I be”
Then there is this thing called doubt rising up.
But what is this that I have labelled as doubt?
Is it a lack of something, belief, truth, surety?
I look in deeper
It’s a thought & a feeling. A feeling is not TRUTH! Just because something makes me feel a certain way, it doesn’t make it so. A feeling is a feeling. & when I scratch the surface of this, it is sensations.
DOubt is a tightness in my chest, my heart.
“I am not responsible for anything…”
My mind is asking so many questions
“So how can I avoid becoming the moth burning itself to death on a lightbulb?”
& the answer is of course, I can’t.
I realise that
I cannot stop myself from doing anything, just like I can’t make myself do something else

I see the concepts of good & bad fading but positive & negative as a very real experience, is still very much there.
Where does the attributes positive and negative come from?

This comes from my concept of being pulled & repelled in life. Why I turn left instead of right, why I pickup the phone & why I scratch my forehead.
A bee is attracted to pollen
A dog barks at the ambulance siren
You are saying that deeper than this concept there is no positive & negative, just life happening.
And here is your sunday video. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DphlhmtGRqI rubber hand
Share what happened when you watched this.
A great example of how thick this layer of conceptual reality is.

I want to have ago!!!

I was thinking about a child how falls, but only starts crying when they see the blood or a look of anguish from Mum.

IN response to the ongoing question of responsibility, I now ask myself
“What is there to be responsible for?

I found this one with a hammer that I thought you might like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk
The shock of the hammer is a little bit like when I watched a movie in the daytime, when I left the theatre I had a subconscious ‘knowing’ that it was dark outside. It wasn’t, it was still day. It was a little disorienting, I was convinced it was night time so it was a little shocking when I walked out into the bright sun. My brain paints a picture of the world (expectations) & then reality shocks.

Going back to your video - rubber hand
As I watch the man lift his finger. I was reminded of our exercise when I opened & closed my hand. Who was doing this? Where was the central control opening & closing. Nobody or no-thing could be found.
Now this video you sent, has a new level. Finger moves up & down, & he thinks he is watching him move his own finger. It’s not his finger, & there is controller either, nobody moving it up & down!
A false sense of self with a false finger! It’s all false!

So what is real? The sensations are real (At least as real as we can get), & the perceptions are fabricated.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:57 am

It’s a thought & a feeling. A feeling is not TRUTH! Just because something makes me feel a certain way, it doesn’t make it so. A feeling is a feeling. & when I scratch the surface of this, it is sensations.
So right.
And it is nice to give a tiny little thought that even most of what we call a sensation is conditioned. Like in some cultures death is nothing to cry about but something to celebrate. Sadness, bereavement versus joy.

Often when a sentence has the "I feel bla bla" there is no sensation, no feeling at all, it is just a manner of speaking.
This comes from my concept of being pulled & repelled in life.
Yes, needs satisfied or not, but also from conditioning through society.
If you are gang member killing would be fine and positive, for those of us who aren't it is negative, no go, no do. You might find a lot of other examples.
So is there something cut in stone here what is positive or negative?
I was thinking about a child how falls, but only starts crying when they see the blood or a look of anguish from Mum.
This is a very good example of how we learn to react.
Psychologists say treating a little accident like that in a casual way results in the kid not crying but getting up and all is fine. Make a fuss and the kid learns "Gee, that was really bad".
A false sense of self with a false finger! It’s all false!
So what is real? The sensations are real (At least as real as we can get), & the perceptions are fabricated.
Interesting, eh? So sense of self or my arm, finger and so on, comes from seeing it and learning that it is me, mine, myself.

Here is a little experiment for you:
Actual experience is, in simplistic terms, anything that the "five" senses are sensing, so when looking for an experiencer of experience we can choose any one of the senses to work with. Hearing seems to be a favourite one to start with so let's give it a go.

Close your eyes and spend some time listening to the various sounds around you, pay close attention to the actual experience of hearing, then allow your attention to rest on one particular sound, a clock ticking perhaps, or distant traffic, the washing machine, or a bird singing outside.
And as you allow the experience of hearing to become the focus of your attention take a good look and see if you can determine any separate elements occurring within the actual experience - is there any evidence that there is a separate hearer that is hearing the sound?
Is there an actual experience of a hearer? or does the actual experience only consist of hearing?

This can be a tricky one, the mind wants to say that of course there is a hearer, there simply must be hearer, there can't possibly be the hearing of a sound without a hearer to hear it! But is it so?

Share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:04 am

So is there something cut in stone here what is positive or negative?
Actions based on value systems are learned behaviour with a story. I can see that.
But if life just happens, what is it that is learning the behavior, What in the gang member learns to kill?

Another point
From an animal point of view, we are repelled and attracted biologically.
Poison & food. Danger & safety. What about comfort & pain?
Here is an experiment for you
This can be a tricky one, the mind wants to say that of course there is a hearer, there simply must be hearer, there can't possibly be the hearing of a sound without a hearer to hear it! But is it so?
Share what you find.
The first time I tried it I realised what you were saying. There was just sound. Just sound happening
It prompted me with the question, “What do I think is the hearer?” which I didn't get an answer for.

Again this morning I tried but I couldn’t get the clarity.
I will try this again later today. This is potentially a big change in my perspective.

I presume there are versions of this experiment for sight, taste & feelings?

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:00 am

But if life just happens, what is it that is learning the behavior, What in the gang member learns to kill?
If we want to answer that we can go to behavioural psychology or ask what you asked in a broader way:
Ponder this: There is only this moment.
A memory happens in this moment. One now, nothing else.
So what is learning?

What sometimes can be difficult to get, since we are so trained on either this or either that - is the as well as.
There is a survival programe. There is a story. And there is simply Life happening. All one, though it might look like three of them......but still one, now.
The first time I tried it I realised what you were saying. There was just sound. Just sound happening
It prompted me with the question, “What do I think is the hearer?” which I didn't get an answer for.
Again this morning I tried but I couldn’t get the clarity.
I will try this again later today. This is potentially a big change in my perspective.
:-)
Good example for just looking open minded the first time doing it and the second time the story hits in.
This is ok. It is slowly learning this looking without falling for thoughts. To just notice thoughts but not following them.

You can do the hearing exercise with any of the senses - the sense of touch is another good one:

Close your eyes and spend some time feeling the various bodily sensations that present themselves, pay close attention to the actual experience of feeling, then allow your attention to rest on one particular sensation, the feeling of your body in contact with the chair, your feet touching the floor, rubbing your hands together perhaps, or your eyes moving behind your eye lids.

And as you allow the experience of feeling that sensation to become the focus of your attention take a good look and see if you can determine any separate elements occurring within the actual experience - is there any evidence that there is a separate feeler that is feeling the sensation?

Is there an actual experience of a feeler? or does the actual experience only consist of feeling?
You are clear that when the words "I" or "me" are used to refer to something in actual experience, like a body or a stream of thoughts, it is just a convenient but ultimately unnecessary label for a collection of real things, you have not been able to find an additional entity beyond that collection to which the words "I" or "me" refer.

Try this on other senses, too, take your time and explore with beginners mind again and again.
And - trust what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:03 pm

I have made progress with both touch and hearing.

Yes, just hearing - no subject and object. The same for touch.

I'll say more tomorrow when I'm back at my computer.

I'm responding from my phone now so cannot type much.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:18 pm

I already love this answer! :-)

See ya,
Jadzia

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:19 am

Ponder this: There is only this moment.
A memory happens in this moment. One now, nothing else.
So what is learning?
In one sense I get this. There is nothing, only everything, all at once. It makes sense.
But then I think, if I want to learn how to play the guitar, I need to learn & develop new skills. Something is storing this information to make progress. My playing the right chords, just doesn't happen.

What sometimes can be difficult to get, since we are so trained on either this or either that - is the as well as.
There is a survival programe. There is a story. And there is simply Life happening. All one, though it might look like three of them......but still one, now.
OK, I'll mull this over...
Try this on other senses, too, take your time and explore with beginners mind again and again.
And - trust what you find.

I have experienced a few moments... Opening up new perspective
The touch is touching with no sender & receiver
The sounds are sounding. No separate listener
Pain seems to be also the same, but I have only tried this with mild discomfort.
One thing that I couldn’t see as one 'thing', was an itch. I got an irresistible itch right on the end of my nose. I observed it, I couldn’t get past the ‘me’ that was experiencing the itch. There was me and there was the itch. I had to scratch!!!

I can see that with a practice, more becomes visible.

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:01 am

But then I think, if I want to learn how to play the guitar, I need to learn & develop new skills. Something is storing this information to make progress. My playing the right chords, just doesn't happen.
Describe the I in the sentences above to me, please?
What does it look like? How does it learn? .... and no learned stuff aka memory but direct looking.
One thing that I couldn’t see as one 'thing', was an itch. I got an irresistible itch right on the end of my nose. I observed it, I couldn’t get past the ‘me’ that was experiencing the itch. There was me and there was the itch. I had to scratch!!!
Why should it be a thing?
Isn't it a sensation?

No-one doing anything, does this mean there can't be something called discomfort? Is there the idea that there should be a standing far over everything, not to be touched by anything?
This would be quite an expectation, or?

Love,
Jadzia

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:38 pm

But then I think, if I want to learn how to play the guitar, I need to learn & develop new skills. Something is storing this information to make progress. My playing the right chords, just doesn't happen.
Describe the I in the sentences above to me, please?
Here I go again in cycles! My immediate answer to this
The 'I'' is the same thing that is following your instructions & trying to ‘better’ myself. But then i realise this is an old perspective.
New perspective - Things are happening & ‘I’ am taking part, no separation. No time. It's all life just happening.
What does it look like? How does it learn? .... and no learned stuff aka memory but direct looking.
It doesn’t exist.
So the 'I' cannot learn if it does exist.
Without speculation on what is happening, that’s all I’ve got.
One thing that I couldn’t see as one 'thing', was an itch. I got an irresistible itch right on the end of my nose. I observed it, I couldn’t get past the ‘me’ that was experiencing the itch. There was me and there was the itch. I had to scratch!!!
Why should it be a thing?
Isn't it a sensation?
When I had the itch. I was observing the sensations & my thoughts were describing them as irresistible. But really, sensations were happening & thoughts were happening. There was no self that it was happening to. Although at the time, it was a very convincing argument!
No-one doing anything, does this mean there can't be something called discomfort? Is there the idea that there should be a standing far over everything, not to be touched by anything?
This would be quite an expectation, or?
I see what you are saying, expectations, Thanks.
It’s the attachment. I now agree, discomfort & reaction is always going to be occurring. Everything is always going to be occurring.
I’m starting to see the personal nature of the attachment to discomfort.

I watch a fly, like the rest of nature, it is perfect, it knows exactly what to do, without instruction or training. Perfectly capable of flying & buzzing around. It’s majestic. Like a bee finds pollen, this fly goes about it’s business in perfect harmony with the universe. It is the universe.
I watch & admire. Then the fly lands inside an opened bottle of sticky sauce. The fly is stuck. It's the end of fly.

But the fly never really existed as a thing. It was never a thing in the first place.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:23 am

Although at the time, it was a very convincing argument!
yes, thoughts are well run in and since they seem to have a convincing story, one can easily fall for it.
It is helpful to use scrutiny to find the gaps in the seemingly seemless stories or the plain wrong offerings by thoughts.

Where would you say you are right now in the "self is not what you have thought" thingy?

Love,
Jadzia

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:45 pm

Where would you say you are right now in the "self is not what you have thought" thingy?
Everything it seems, becomes clear with investigation. But in my busy life, I will often sink back into my role of self, where the self is so important. I feel I’m chipping away. I have chipped a lot. I am clear about what to look for when I find myself fixed in me.
I think that when you highlighted one or two of my expectations this week, this was a new perspective. I was looking with a view to obtain a certain outcome. Expecting ‘no self’ & the ability to transcend pain & discomfort. Being able to see these expectations has helped me recognise other expectations. I have realised that I have no idea what to expect. & the more I expect the less I will see.
I think I most strongly see with feeling, i can feel sensations without story. The sounds are OK but with sights, I always seem to see the 3d world. I have tried many times to look & see the 2d world presented, made from colour & light. But my perception for now, is fixed on the story where I believe in all the 3d objects on display.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:56 pm

But in my busy life, I will often sink back into my role of self, where the self is so important.
Yip, I never get tired to point out that this will happen for a long time....it takes a while..... ;-)
Expecting ‘no self’ & the ability to transcend pain & discomfort.
Get rid of the annoying self and never ever suffer again - yeah.... expectation, won't happen.
But my perception for now, is fixed on the story where I believe in all the 3d objects on display.
This is another step on the non-way, and isn't covered on LU.
.....and right now it is another expectation....
You might like to google fetters, Ten fetters, one day.

I will give you the first of the so called last questions and we will see where your answer leads us.
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:35 pm

I will give you the first of the so called last questions and we will see where your answer leads us.
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no self. Never has.


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