The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

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Sidstrate
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The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:00 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self can never be found, the self is all. I know this in theory, not in practice.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have traveled a wonderful inner journey over the last 6 years. I am optimistic that LU can help me with the next step(s).
I am excited about the personal interaction, the connection that will allow me to go deeper into inquiry.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A level, or perspective of self reflection, that has not so far been visible to me by looking alone. An external person without prejudice or ulterior motive could provide a clear reflection for me that may help me see things clearly.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
6 years of meditation, including 2 x 10 day vipassna courses.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:57 pm

Hi Sistrate,

I am Jadzia and if you like we can walk some steps together.

I will ask questions and sometimes give you exercises and would like you to answer them as honestly as you can and only, only from you own experience. Is that ok?
The self can never be found, the self is all.
Hm, in your experience right now where do you find self?
Is it in the body somewhere? Is there a feeling of a self?
What about thoughts?
For several moments thorougth a day - have a look.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:12 pm

Thank you for your kind response Jadzia & thank you for offering to help guide me.

I have been looking into this over the last few weeks. Coincidentally, I have been exploring your exact question over the last few days.

(I’ve just read this post back to myself & if you want to save time, you could just read the last two lines!) lol.

I can report the following pattern,
I can witness many things, sensations, emotions, etc. Whenever I witness I can see that, whatever I am witnessing is NOT SELF.

But then me as the witness feels like the self. I look at me as the witness & then it’s the me directing the awareness that is the self. Then I fall into a self commentary which feels like self

There are two types of thoughts.

i) Random thoughts & opinions that seem to come up out of nowhere
ii) A planning thought that seems to come from my own volition, “I’m going to go onto LU & try to really find out what’s going on.”

Then Judgement good or bad, (again feels like self) I really want to say that this is not self, but it really feels like a sense of self. Then ideas to improve this process next time, also really feel like they come from self.

I have been searching, but it really feels like the searcher is the self.
I watch myself typing these words & it is the watcher of this process (not the doer) that feels like the self.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:38 pm

Allright, by now you might have noticed that proving that something isn't there is not that easy and a tiny weeny bit mote, right?
So if it is ok with you, let's have a close look at what is there - what can be found.
...the witness feels like the self.
...the awareness that is the self.
...I fall into a self commentary which feels like self.
...Judgement good or bad, (again feels like self)....
...it really feels like the searcher is the self...
...it is the watcher of this process (not the doer) that feels like the self...
Interesting, isn't it, the self seems to be quite a lot.
There is a lot of "feels as if".
Now check if this a feeling, like for an example a pain in the leg, or are these thoughts which have a "I feel" in the content/sentence.

As there seems to be a witness, where exactly is it? Inside the body? Perhaps the head?
Same with the searcher and watcher, are all three of a completely different kind, like say three people?
And where are searcher and watcher found? Do they have a place in the body? Or somewhere else?
How about awareness?

Lets look at commentary and judgement later, ok?

Love,
Jadzia, who would like you to answer each and every question :-D

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:21 pm

“Now check if this a feeling, like for an example a pain in the leg, or are these thoughts which have a "I feel" in the content/sentence.”
The sense of feeling is not like a pain in the leg. It’s also not like a general physical discomfort like feeling nauseous or having a fever.
If I can locate the feeling of self. It’s in the head. A haze in the back of my head at the top of my spine. Thoughts seem to come after this.
“As there seems to be a witness, where exactly is it? Inside the body? Perhaps the head?”
This is a question that I have struggled with for a few weeks.
But today’s answer is this
I am the witness!!! Arrrggghhhh!!!!!!!
I am calm & ok - lol
This is a significant point for me. I can feel emotions swelling (Mild Claustrophobia) when facing this question.

This seems to me like a very big question. This seems like the biggest stumbling block.

It really feels like when I observe (anything), it is me (the self) that is doing the observing.

There is a ‘me’ that wants to do well at this(LU), a ‘me’ that wants to be special.
“Same with the searcher and watcher, are all three of a completely different kind, like say three people?”
It’s funny how you present this to me, thank you. It’s like I have a searcher who finds a solution then sends the watcher off to follow instructions!
But cannot the self have a multifaceted personality?
“And where are searcher and watcher found? Do they have a place in the body? Or somewhere else?”
My searcher is a planner. He comes up with ideas & steps forward. He is somewhere in my head.

The watcher (AKA the witness) - is the fall back sense of feeling after seemingly any investigation. If I can observe anything, then it must be me that observes it!!! This is what is coming up right now as a response to this investigation.
“How about awareness?”
OK, I would have normally put witness & awareness in the same question, so this distinction is new to me.

OK, after a few minutes of exploring what awareness might be - as opposed to witnessing. I found that there was a field of awareness out of the head to a larger area incorporating the head & the body, & also outside of the body. - This point felt like progress. But then I am filled with doubt that this could be just my imagination.
Lets look at commentary and judgement later, ok? -
lol

Love back to you Jadzia, I am very grateful for your kind guiding, Thank you!

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:08 pm

Allright, this is the honesty I meant - well done!

You will love to read this now: there is no right or wrong in this investigation, there is just what you find at this moment.
Might that what is found change with the time? Might happen....
But cannot the self have a multifaceted personality?
Ah, this is a good one, thank you.
It seems as if the self gets a lot of attributions, like self is this and self is also that, ah, and sure it is this, too.
Do these create a personality? Aren't this assumptions? Do a lot of assumptions create a reality? Something that could be heard, smelled, touched or seen, or even tasted?

What are assumptions? Aren't they an idea about something aka thoughts about something?

So that what could be called self is something like a haze, a feeling in the head. Sometimes as awareness/I am aware in the head, body and beyond. It can be called watcher, seer, that what is aware. Alright.

Don't answer before tomorrow - investigation time starts now and it needs looking again and again.
Feel into everything which could be called self, check the location, in case there is one, observe like a cat observes a mouse.
What exactly is it?
Is it always the same?
Does it always have the same location?
What else do you find which could or is called self?
Does it have a form, seems to be cloudish, or a bird or is it a little Sidstrate in the head? Check it.
What happens when observing? Does something change?

Ask yourself again and again - would it be possible that now and then it could be called something else.
I know we call thingy on four tyres: car. But is everything with four tyres a car?
Use scrutiny, be detective, observe.

Share what you find.
Love,
Jadzia

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:38 am

I am aware of a general awareness which seems to be general coverage (not a specific place) and this awareness seems to run by itself. This general awareness might notice something like an ice cream shop then this would kick start a stream of thoughts (logical & illogical), ideas, emotions, sensations, actions & judgements.

There seems to be at least 2 levels of awareness. The general awareness & then focus specific awareness. The focus seems to be guided by my direction, I can choose where to point this awareness. But I don't know where the ‘I’ is that chooses where to point!

You ask me to investigate. I try to see ‘who is this me that is following your instruction?’. It really feels like me.

When I look I find hazy vibrational activity in the base of my head again. I watch this for a while, then it dissipates. Poof, & it’s gone! So I return to consider your instruction, there it is again, the ME following instructions. I watch, back of the head, the same feeling, then again disappears.
Then again, I return to following your instruction to investigate.

This compulsion to return seems to come out of thin air. I cannot find a trace of where it comes from. But as if by magic, I return to the task!

I return (this time maybe 5th cycle) to the back of my head. The same vibration, same spot but this time almost instantly disappears.

So now I’m left wondering where it is. I look at where is it that it following your instructions & there is nothing.

There’s a sense of me asking - “Is that it? Are you done?”
--

It's like I have to get out of the way of myself so the awareness can come to the front. It's almost like I push me out of the way to allow an awareness of natural awareness.
--

Where does awareness come from? Is awareness the ‘I’ that I'm looking for?

Point of clarification please Jadzia. To help with our communication, from your perspective & use of language, when you say the see-er/observer, is this the same or different from when you say awareness?
--

I noticed myself checking my watch for the time and there was no self who instigated this action I simply looked at my watch - it just happened. I had no idea that I wanted to know the time, there didn’t seem to be a preceding thought, which I thought was a bit strange.
--

My investigations keep coming back to awareness but I cannot see why awareness cannot be the self that I'm searching for. Is awareness giving me a sense of self?
or is it a little Sidstrate in the head?
The image of this made me laugh!! He feels real!
I'm looking for him, he feels like he could be in there somewhere, the cheeky little bugger!
--

Trying to find the see-er/observer - is like trying to catch a reflection of me in the mirror looking away. As soon as I turn my head towards the mirror, I am no longer looking away. How can I ever see the observer?

Much Love

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:13 pm

I noticed myself checking my watch for the time and there was no self who instigated this action I simply looked at my watch - it just happened. I had no idea that I wanted to know the time, there didn’t seem to be a preceding thought, which I thought was a bit strange.
Checking the watch did happen, as action simply happening. What was lacking was a thought "I want to do this in this way...." before action.
Interesting, eh?
When does thoughts pop up describing what happens? Not before, ok, so during or afterwards? How speedy are they, split second, less?
When I look I find hazy vibrational activity in the base of my head again. I watch this for a while, then it dissipates. Poof, & it’s gone! So I return to consider your instruction, there it is again, the ME following instructions. I watch, back of the head, the same feeling, then again disappears.
This is an important observation, isn't it?
Once found it poofs. So if it would be the self, or the watcher, or the observer, which is the I, wouldn't it stand to reason that it has one or more fixed places and always should be found there in the same space, the same sensation, the same feeling?
So now I’m left wondering where it is. I look at where is it that it following your instructions & there is nothing.
There’s a sense of me asking - “Is that it? Are you done?”
Is thought tricking you by telling: This is Self=bla bla bla? And when you look there is no-thing.
So looking for self you find thoughts and sensations, or?
It's like I have to get out of the way of myself so the awareness can come to the front. It's almost like I push me out of the way to allow an awareness of natural awareness.
Do you know the 3D pictures you can look at?
http://brainden.com/images/butterfly-stereogram-big.jpg
First you might see lots of green. When you relax the background of your eyes you suddenly see a butterfly. Both is there at the same time, butterfly and lots of green stuff, never one without the other.
How to separate it.
Where does awareness come from? Is awareness the ‘I’ that I'm looking for?
Would awareness be an I? Hm, this would mean that there must be lots of awareness-es, so to speak, for each I one....
Lets first find out - where do thoughts come from? Do you know?
or is it a little Sidstrate in the head?
The image of this made me laugh!! He feels real!
I'm looking for him, he feels like he could be in there somewhere, the cheeky little bugger!
And did you find him?
Where is he? What does he look like? Does he wear Star Trek socks??????
]Trying to find the see-er/observer - is like trying to catch a reflection of me in the mirror looking away. As soon as I turn my head towards the mirror, I am no longer looking away. How can I ever see the observer?
Same here, observe again and again, look for locations, feelings and check what is there?
Sensation of a sort and thoughts or something you can find with your senses?

What you found up to now seem to be ideas aka thoughts about a someone. Right? Or did you find something else?

Love
Jadzia

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:55 am

So I’ve got into this pattern of looking & following until the feeling disappears. Then it’s back to ‘me’. The me who is following instructions, the me who wants to get going, the me who wants to get to the bottom of this.
This is the me that has so far felt like the primary self. The sense of self that is guiding the way (or following instructions!)

Following the 3D picture you sent, I was mulling over the idea that I could look at things differently.

I considered the outrageous possibility that this sense of self could be a thought, however strange & preposterous that may have sounded & felt to me.

I experienced a breakthrough! This very intimate feeling of self revealed itself as a thought. A thought in disguise, hiding. It was remarkable.

It was a thought entwined with energetic density, right in the very centre of my head. Once I recognised this thought/sense of self to be an energetic vibration inside my head, I was able to observe this for a while. It fluctuated slightly in it’s intensity before subsiding.

Then it all happened again as I returned to the observation, I repeated the cycle. What was behind the thought? This sense of self which was a brain thing, an embedded thought/vibration.

I repeated quite a few times. I felt quite happy & after effects lasted a few hours. There has been a physical reaction. The insides of my brain seem to be changing. It can feel quite nice, like a freeing up of space. It can also feel quite hazy, like a headache coming on.

I have been catching it again a few times throughout the day. I’ve been trying to catch my thoughts. I now start to question if any feeling (or sense of... ) is really a thought, in disguise.

I want to see more examples of how thoughts come AFTER natural action. The hunt continues to find the earlier step preceding a thought.
Where does awareness come from? Is awareness the ‘I’ that I'm looking for?
Would awareness be an I? Hm, this would mean that there must be lots of awareness-es, so to speak, for each I one....
I don't understand this.

I am finding the image of little Sidstrate inside me quite helpful. It’s something tangible to hunt. Ahhhh, the thrill of the chase!
What you found up to now seem to be ideas aka thoughts about a someone. Right? Or did you find something else?
I'm not sure I understand this either.

Emotions
I can separate from many emotions rising but there feels to me like a me is still being directly effected by these emotions. When I distance from an uncomfortable emotion, in some ways I am reinforcing the sense of I. Rather than observe the emotions, I am trying to observe what I am distancing the emotions from, who is the I?. The emotions seem to be in the body. The self seems to be in the head.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:54 pm

Dear friend,

Do you want to get rid of the self?
There is no need to.
It is good to see it for what it really is. This is all that is needed.

Are you in a hurry?
No need for hurry either.
Calm soft looking, nicely not staring - all that is needed.
Staring and trying too hard leads to headache and can mislead. Looking as soft as the touch of a butterfly on your hand - this is the way to look.
I considered the outrageous possibility that this sense of self could be a thought, however strange & preposterous that may have sounded & felt to me.
I experienced a breakthrough! This very intimate feeling of self revealed itself as a thought. A thought in disguise, hiding. It was remarkable.

"I feel this is the self" - merely a thought labeling an energy vibration which is merely a sensation labeled by thought as energy?
Yes often "I feel" has so nothing to do with a feeling like joy for example or a sensation like tightness for example but it is merely a thought telling a story about something.

How often does Me or I or Mine appear in thoughts? And even more how often do me,mine,I don't appear but are still quietly in the thought/sentence?
Example: "Daft looking car...." - who thinks this? The I?

Love,
Jadzia

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:30 pm

It doesn’t feel like I have been in a rush, but I have been enthusiastic & very focused.

I have been getting a great feeling of momentum & growth by following this process. Ahhhh - The seductive addiction to self improvement which is ironic because this is self eating self?

I feel now that I COULD continue this process & hunt down each aspect of self. I could observe & watch the condensed energy (thoughts, sensations, muscle memory, nervous system reflexes, etc). They would eventually dissolve, untangle, release or burn out. Then what? Is this a worthy goal? DO I really want to vaporise all aspects of self? It doesn’t appear as such an attractive thought right now.

I return to your advice.
Calm soft looking, nicely not staring - all that is needed.
Looking as soft as the touch of a butterfly on your hand - this is the way to look.
How often does Me or I or Mine appear in thoughts? And even more how often do me,mine,I don't appear but are still quietly in the thought/sentence?
Example: "Daft looking car...." - who thinks this? The I?
I observe the ‘I’ & it disappears. Through observation, the illusions disappear

This is the crazy thing about all this! Is the self seeking destruction? Or is MY self building another sandcastle of identity to hide in?

I continue to investigate with a renewed delicacy and softness

Much Love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:32 pm

I feel now that I COULD continue this process & hunt down each aspect of self. I could observe & watch the condensed energy (thoughts, sensations, muscle memory, nervous system reflexes, etc). They would eventually dissolve, untangle, release or burn out. Then what? Is this a worthy goal? DO I really want to vaporise all aspects of self? It doesn’t appear as such an attractive thought right now.
Vaporize all aspects of self?
We don't try to kill the self or tryto let it disappear - there is no need for this.
Again, it is seeing this self for what is which is needed.

So far you found that it is not the feeling of a self, or an energy you find and it is probably not a little Sidstrate hiding in the head working from there. So where is it found, where does it appear?

Just repeat the exercise again, butterfly lightly.
Take a piece of paper, make two collumns one titled I, the other one titled Other.
Simply observe thought, without any intervention, same as you would watch a sunset. It is wonderful as it is, no making it better or different.
Whenever a thought with an I in it appears, mark it in the I-collumn, each thought in which no I appears, even not a hidden one, mark in the Other-collum.
Do this for ten minutes and then share what you find.

Love
Jadzia

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:00 am

I have not done this exercise before. I found the experience helpful in seeing. I will do it a few more times. But this is what I have so far.
The I's are first, then the other is at the end

I
I am waiting for this computer to boot up
I want to eat
How am I effected by this thing at work?
I have a lot of work coming up
I acknowledge that there is a lot of ‘me’ based content coming up so far!
I am going to visit someone after work
I am going to deliver a poem to people in a crowded bar in September
My forehead feels a little strange
I don't have a lot of net assets
I don’t want to do any more work
I need to do more work
How much sleep did I get last night
My chest has a tightness
What is death?
I want to please others
I get embarrassed
I want to let go
That lady is annoying me
What is this need to make progress?
Am I just wasting time? What is wasting time?
I am not enough, why not?
I want people to like & respect me
I am special
My back needs to be straight, do I sit with good posture?
Am I good at breathing?
My lips are dry
What is awareness? - at first I thought this was ‘Other’ but then I asked, who wants to know the answer? Who is asking the question?
Is this a way to escape, what is real?
Why is Paki considered racist? Aussie is not considered racist - Is it to do with intent? Or is it political correctness? Where does this come from? I feel like I am in a prison of language. I want to call out bullshit. Bullshit to schools, to government, to racism, to corporations, to the dollar.
Why do I want to be better than others?
Is it my cultural condition of competition & domination or is it a sign of insecurity? My need to prove myself to others may come from an inner belief of unworthiness?
Where do these thoughts come from?
Why am i so important? Why do I need validation from others?


Other
Students making noise but they are behaving
Sensations are happening around & throughout the body
Ceiling fans are spinning
I watch a young person adjust their coat
A child makes a noise somewhere in the distance
Some people walk past
Ahhh silence
I notice other people
I notice sounds, clicking, people talking
I notice people talking


Much love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:49 pm

Well done!

Lets have a close look at some of your examples.
What is death?
Yes, it is an I thought, because death is seen in relation to an I which supposedly can die.
What is awareness? - at first I thought this was ‘Other’ but then I asked, who wants to know the answer? Who is asking the question?
Beautiful.
Students making noise but they are behaving
Hm. Sure there is no I? The I who thinks this is noise, loud, and by whose standards are the students behaving????
Sensations are happening around & throughout the body
Whose body? Could it have been yours - which would be a mine in the sentence pointing to a self/I.
A child makes a noise somewhere in the distance
In the distance from whom? Aren't you aka an I being hidden in the sentence?
Some people walk past
Same here. Past whom?

This hidden I, me, mines are at first tricky to spot. Observe thoughts now and then and be amused. You already found that lots of thoughts are about I, me mine,meaning in relation to the self.
Where do these thoughts come from?
This is a very good question. Did you find an answer to it? Do you know, really know, meaning having proof, where thoughts come from? Yes? No?

Do you know what direct looking means? You might need it to answer the thought question.
Only that is considered real which can be experienced directly.
If you stop right now and have a look at everything you can experience, can you experience something different than colour/shape (seeing), sound (hearing), smells, taste, bodily sensations or appearing thoughts?
Does this sum it up?

No check if you know where thoughts come from.

Love,
Jadzia

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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:50 am

“Do you know what direct looking means? You might need it to answer the thought question.”
Looking to prove that “I” does not exist
Sensations are happening around & throughout the body
Whose body? Could it have been yours - which would be a mine in the sentence pointing to a self/I.
Can I be aware from another place other than my body. Surely this is central to experience?
If you stop right now and have a look at everything you can experience, can you experience something different than colour/shape (seeing), sound (hearing), smells, taste, bodily sensations or appearing thoughts?
Intuition? Maybe this is a combination of bodily sensations & thoughts together to create intuition? I wonder if this is what I would have called sensing energy? Sensing the atmosphere in the room? Or sensing the intent of another person. Are these all bodily sensations powering thoughts.

What about a sense of balance or a sense of space awareness? I suppose I could call them bodily sensations.

Senses deeply meshed with fluctuating & random thoughts. A complex entanglement!

So is a deep seated belief a thought?
I suppose it is

Checking assumptions, judgments & standard, opinions & discrimination.

The hidden ‘I’ is like a presumptive ‘I’. The statements can only be true if ‘I’ exists, which I am learning is an unfounded & unproved assumption.

Is ‘I’ a thought? - No clarity yet.
Now check if you know where thoughts come from.
My first answer (hunch) was that thoughts are created in the head. They magically appear out of the atmosphere/collective conscious/universal stream

Some time passes & following further investigation I now see thoughts as output.

The input is from our senses. The brain receives/perceives & then processes (like a computer) before spitting out a thought (s).

Thoughts are ALWAYS a result of perceptions via sensory input.

So thoughts are always behind the times - a response to. Always after the event. Thoughts like, I should go here, or turn this way, are always after the processing of sensory input.

So I could ignore the thought. I could doubt the thought. But who is the ‘I’ that ignores or doubts the thought?

Doubt or ignoring is another thought.

There is only awareness - a concept I am exploring. It is awareness that is present. Awareness of everything. This sounds like superpowers!

Thoughts are not really thoughts, they are more like computer output from sensory input data.
Only that is considered real which can be experienced directly.
What could this be? Everything the brain processes is through senses. How could I experience directly?
So what can be experienced without senses?
I have investigated this & as yet, other than a sense of wonder at the possibility, I have nothing to report back on.

Much Love


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