Longing for nothing

[Marigold]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that LU wants us to see and experience for ourselves the futility of the concept that there is some personal self in us that is separate from the outside world and the others.

What are you looking for at LU?
I used to be involved much more in listening to satsangs and reading spiritual literature but I am so very tired of this now after more than 10 years of doing this.
Nevertheless, the longing for something greater is still there and it doesn't give me break. Even if I am not involved in satsangs or readings this is on my mind constantly. Thinking what is this all about; what is reality; who am I. I forgot but I remember at least year or two now that when I was a child I was asking myself the same questions a lot.
I just want to go all the way through and finish this search.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like to be more focused and I would like to be connected to someone who experiences the state of liberation. I understand someone like this can point out the tricks of my minds that I am not able to see for myself.
I really feel it is important for me to stick to one way and just keep going deeper and deeper. I am easily distracted so I feel this kind of connection could be very beneficial.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am 38 years old I remember holding book from Osho in my hands when I was 23 years old. Immediately I felt such a resonance what he was saying. I never stopped reading this kind of literature since then. It was just any kind of spiritual literature but approximately for the last 6 years I started reading more around Ramana Maharshi, Papaji, Mooji (I attended 3 of his satsangs but I was immersed in his online satsangs for couple of years). I had some glimpses when I burst out laughing seeing really that there is no one. This happened also when I was reading book from Jean Klein. Lately I really like to contemplate Rupert Spira's writings. I have done some meditation classes couple of years ago and that was the first time I saw that I can be the observer of my mind. That there has to be something else to see the mind.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[barb]

Hi :)

I would like to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions. You don’t actually have to do anything other than to LOOK with your five senses at what is being pointed at. To see you are already seeing and always have been seeing what actually is. This is not about thinking about something, it is about Direct Experience... :)

This simple seeing also notices that there is no self here - there's just what is going on, that this is already going on for everyone right now. But the mind comes in and makes it complicated and says it's difficult and out of reach. My job as a guide is to help you to see that this basic awareness/seeing is always here and always has been.

Please read this links before we begin:


Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Much love
Barb

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

Thank you so much for taking me on board and willing to guide me.
I can confirm I read the disclaimer and all the other links.
I have a little one who is time demanding and am mostly on my own but I will try my best to reply and post regularly. I look forward to that:)
Thanks again!
you can call me my real name Sonia:)

[barb]

Hi Sonia :)

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know, please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realize that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation, this includes also the other threads in this forum. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. in your own words could you please answer the following questions::


What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?
What will change, what will remain the same?
What do you expect, what do you hope?


Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

I am looking forward to your answers

:)

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

I hope my english is sufficient to answer all these and future questions as truly as I feel it.
Ok, so...

What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?

I feel it could be a moment where I burst out laughing realizing how silly it is I ever thought there was someone called “me” who orchestrated my life. This is only based on my past experience where I had some small glimpses.
It could be a moment of a simple quiet understanding or recognition. I don’t really know. I used to have those big ideas about bliss but I don’t expect anything like that anymore. I just don’t expect anything (or at least I would like to believe I don’t). If so, then perhaps some kind of relief knowing that things are not as serious as they seem to be and life just is. Relief that there is not any “me” and everything happens on its own.

What will change, what will remain the same?

I guess my perspective on life and its course will change. Perhaps I won’t perceive some things as important or detrimental and I will be more welcoming to whatever happens.
On the other side I don’t expect anything much to change. I think the heights and lows will still be here in life, emotions will still appear and old habits and conditioning will stay or they might change. I would think there might be more spaciousness in seeing those things happening for someone called “me” :)

What do you expect, what do you hope?

In a way I expect that life will be little bit easier not in terms of what is happening but in terms of not being attached to stories or events that will appear in the awareness as there won’t be any person to cling to the experiences.
I hope the longing I feel that there is something missing will diminish and there will be more peace with what is.

I have a knowledge there is no real separate me yet when using the language I speak about “me” as I don’t know how otherwise to answer those questions.

Thank you for reading. Lots of love

Sonia

[barb]

I hope my english is sufficient to answer all these and future questions as truly as I feel it.

No worries, I'm sure we will get along well :)

Your expectations are not too high, some of them will maybe be fulfilled sooner or later after seeing through the illusion of a separate self, some of them not. For the duration of our investigation please put all your expectations in a box and give it aside... :) Expectations can be a big hindrance for clear seeing... It is possible that new expectations pops up during the investigation, the most important thing is to be aware of them...

We are working here with DIRECT EXPERIENCE (DE).. you sure have read about it, but I will describe it again:

DE is that, which can be perceived with the senses: seeing-hearing-touching-smelling-tasting-thinking (only the perception, that there is thought, not its content) All stuff which is not findable with the senses is thought content = fairytale :)

Here in this investigation look always in DE for answers... Ie: I ask you, which socks you're wearing. You can think about it, look in your memories, or simply look at your feet. Hope you agree that only the last one is the one we can be fairly sure that it's real :)

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience - your direct experience.


Most of the time, we are in the fairytale of thought content, not participating in the life through which the body goes.

Try what it is like to be in reality. In doing so, you will reduce reality to the names that are closest to perception. Do this exercise as often as possible throughout the day.

Simply name any experience as seeing-hearing-sensing-smelling-tasting-thinking.

Do this while becoming aware of various things:

To see a tree, simply = seeing
The smell of coffee = smelling
The wind in the face = sensing
The toothpaste on the toothbrush = tasting
Hear a car pass by = hearing
Thought of the work = thinking (Thoughts can be words and mental images).
Thought of enlightenment = thinking
Tension in the neck = sensing
etc...

There are two kinds of thought:

1- The thought points to something perceptible via the senses at this moment - the thought 'labels'.
2- The thought points to another thought, this is thought-content and the story being told.

Simply subclassify all the experiences in these categories that are all direct experiences and tell me how that goes and what you've noticed - please give me a few examples.

Thank you for reading. Lots of love

It's a great pleasure to be with you :)

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

Simply subclassify all the experiences in these categories that are all direct experiences and tell me how that goes and what you've noticed - please give me a few examples.

So, when I tried this exercise it was too overwhelming initially. I thought to myself - how can I point out and name all that is happening. It is too many things at the same time. Eventually this feeling eased a bit and I was able to pinpoint one thing at a time and be more confident about it.

When I try to label all the experiences it seems though that everything is happening on its own.
Even though different senses perceive things in different times everything seems to be connected by the space or a place from which everything is perceived. In a way it is a continuous place. This place from where everything is perceived never pause (or stop or end).

All the perception comes from one place. Be it connected to the smell, to the sight or the hearing. For example when I hear my daughter chattering in the other room I think of it as “out there” when in reality I perceive it right here. The chattering is happening “right here” and not in the other room. Any thought is happening in the same space even if it is connected to the future or to the past.

If there was a period of time when I was doing this exercise more intensely like now when I am writing to you it seems there is really no space for the “me” or the “thinker”. There is nothing else than this observation.


Do this exercise as often as possible throughout the day.

I was distracted and I was forgetful..lost in the stream of thoughts and carried away many times during the day. I started to label things again when I remembered.
I will try to do this exercise again tomorrow. Doing this more intensely like now makes me smiling and feeling somehow little bit at ease. Like there really is nothing else:):)

Anyway, I don’t know what else to write and I don’t want to start writing from thinking.
I confess - I can do better! I will try again tomorrow.

Thank you:):)


PS: Barb is my style of answering the questions right? I mean the copying. When I looked at other's profiles before it seems the questions from the guide when in answer is highlighted with yellow color but my text is not. .

[barb]

Wonderful done :)

So, when I tried this exercise it was too overwhelming initially. I thought to myself - how can I point out and name all that is happening. It is too many things at the same time. Eventually this feeling eased a bit and I was able to pinpoint one thing at a time and be more confident about it.

Haha, yes with this exercise one can see what is really going on moment to moment... ;) Don't try too hard, it goes as it goes.

To get familiar with this you can take every day 5 minutes or so (best with a timer), and concentrate on one sense perception after the other. I.e. The first minute you look around and every time the eyes come to rest on an object you label it with seeing (maybe so every 2 or 3 seconds..). The next minute close your eyes and every time a sound is recognized label it with hearing. The 3rd minute concentrate on bodily sensations and label with sensing. The 4th minute look at thinking (be not interested in the content) and label every thought you notice with thinking, and the 5th minute let it flow, and whatever comes in focus give a label. Every time you get distracted just go back gently and joyfully to labeling.. :)

When I try to label all the experiences it seems though that everything is happening on its own.
Even though different senses perceive things in different times everything seems to be connected by the space or a place from which everything is perceived. In a way it is a continuous place. This place from where everything is perceived never pause (or stop or end).

All the perception comes from one place. Be it connected to the smell, to the sight or the hearing. For example when I hear my daughter chattering in the other room I think of it as “out there” when in reality I perceive it right here. The chattering is happening “right here” and not in the other room. Any thought is happening in the same space even if it is connected to the future or to the past.

God observation :)

Try it again with sound. Pause for two minutes and listen attentively to all the sounds that can be heard at the moment.
Is there a hearer, separated from hearing and what is heard?
Where does listening happen? Watch out for distant sounds.
Where is the listener now? Find out with closed eyes, if there is a border between here and there.
Is it possible to define it?
Is there a hearer - hearing - and the heard? Or just hearing?

Can you really find such a thing as space or a place from which everything is perceived in Direct Experience? Look closely!

If there was a period of time when I was doing this exercise more intensely like now when I am writing to you it seems there is really no space for the “me” or the “thinker”. There is nothing else than this observation.

:)

I was distracted and I was forgetful..lost in the stream of thoughts and carried away many times during the day. I started to label things again when I remembered.
I will try to do this exercise again tomorrow.

As said: Don't try too hard, not too much effort. Do it curious, playfully. And whenever you notice that it was forgotten and lost in thought, than be happy, that you noticed it and go on with labeling... :) Make this exercise a habit but take it easy and relax... :)

Doing this more intensely like now makes me smiling and feeling somehow little bit at ease. Like there really is nothing else:):)

Can you find something else if you don't listen to the stories of the thoughts? ;)

Anyway, I don’t know what else to write and I don’t want to start writing from thinking. 
I confess - I can do better! I will try again tomorrow.

You're doing very well! Be patient with yourself. We are out of habit so caught up in thought, this begins as a little child from parents, culture, school... It's just conditioning, with little practice and joy it's easier to watch this.

Thank you:):)

<3

PS: Barb is my style of answering the questions right? I mean the copying. When I looked at other's profiles before it seems the questions from the guide when in answer is highlighted with yellow color but my text is not.

I'm happy with your style. If you want you can use the quote function like in the video (link from 1. post) described (if you use a tablet or a phone it's not so easy, don't mind) ...

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,
Thank you for your last message. I am sorry I didn't have time to write you today but I will do so tomorrow..
🙏🙏

[barb]

Thanks for the message... :)

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

My PC broke today. Just when I need it the most. I have been hardly using it for a long time and when I really want to make use of it this happens. I knew I needed a new one a long time but not after I have started this just now! Typical! 😁😁
I will write from my phone but the structure might not be as good.it is more challenging to see the whole message and to write longer text. I am sorry. Will try to fix this soon.

It is a relief this investigation can be done gently and joyfully:) I am probably too harsh on myself sometimes and probably think it cannot be as easy as this..:)

I was doing the 5 minutes exercise couple of times. As you said - it gets easier. For some reason sounds and thoughts labelling are slightly easier than sensations on my body.

So to your questions:

"Is there a hearer, separated from hearing and what is heard?"
No,there is no hearer. It feels like I am the hearing.There is only the perception of the sounds.

"Where does listening happen? Watch out for distant sounds."
It happens in this still and unchangeable space - in the presence.This space feels hollow. The distant sounds are perceived in the same place as the sounds that are closer to my ear but the distant sounds are perceived in a way from depth..

"Where is the listener now? Find out with closed eyes, if there is a border between here and there.
Is it possible to define it?"
There is no border between here and there.Even though some sounds are perceived laude and some quieter it is again seamless..no borders.

"Can you really find such a thing as space or a place from which everything is perceived in Direct Experience? Look closely!"
I cannot find separate space or a place from which everything is perceived. It is just "this". It doesn't have any qualities. Everything is part of me or I am part of everything..(whatever I am)..:)

"Can you find something else if you don't listen to the stories of the thoughts?"
There cannot be something else😁 I cannot reason but from the experience there cannot be anything else than this. Only perceptions are arising.

I have a question Barb,please. Who is the one who can direct the attention? How come there is something willful to direct the attention either to hearing or seeing.. what is there capable of leading the attention?
I am maybe thinking too much..but had this on my mind for a long time..

Much love and appreciation😌🙏

[barb]

I will write from my phone but the structure might not be as good.it is more challenging to see the whole message and to write longer text. I am sorry. Will try to fix this soon.

No worries, it's all good :)

It is a relief this investigation can be done gently and joyfully:) I am probably too harsh on myself sometimes and probably think it cannot be as easy as this..:)

It seems this is an issue for you, maybe we will take a look at this a little bit later... :)

I was doing the 5 minutes exercise couple of times. As you said - it gets easier. For some reason sounds and thoughts labelling are slightly easier than sensations on my body.

Great, it's all just a matter of practice, have fun with it :)

"Is there a hearer, separated from hearing and what is heard?"
No,there is no hearer. It feels like I am the hearing.There is only the perception of the sounds.

How does this feel like? Is there really an „I am“ findable, or is there just hearing?

It happens in this still and unchangeable space - in the presence.This space feels hollow. The distant sounds are perceived in the same place as the sounds that are closer to my ear but the distant sounds are perceived in a way from depth..

Look closely: Can there space/presence be found? Can you see-hear-feel-taste-smell space/presence? How do you experience hollowness? Or is this just a story, told by thoughts? Don't think about it, LOOK!

There is no border between here and there.Even though some sounds are perceived laude and some quieter it is again seamless..no borders.

Yes, exactly...

I cannot find separate space or a place from which everything is perceived. It is just "this". It doesn't have any qualities. Everything is part of me or I am part of everything..(whatever I am)..:)

Is „this“ or "I am" findable with DE? What if "this" and "I am" is only a concept, and there is always just what is going on right now? (Please try to forget everything you heard before about „this“, and look in your own experience...)

There cannot be something else? I cannot reason but from the experience there cannot be anything else than this. Only perceptions are arising.

Yes, there is only experience/perceptions, and if you look closely then you can see, that there is even no arising, they are just there... :)

I have a question Barb,please. Who is the one who can direct the attention? How come there is something willful to direct the attention either to hearing or seeing.. what is there capable of leading the attention?
I am maybe thinking too much..but had this on my mind for a long time..

Every question, every wanting to know comes out of the mind, and is only a story with no substance... No answer will ever satisfy the mind, with every answered question there will be pop up 100 new... :) This here is not about knowing or questions being answered, it's about unknowing (and the natural accepting of it) and looking... Every question I ask you is not meant for the purpose of the answer (there are no right or wrong ones), they are only meant to animate you to look in your own experience... The ultimate understanding is that there is no ultimate understanding.... :))

What if there is nobody who directs the attention?

Can you find somebody who directs the wind? Was there something willful to direct the attention to hearing or seeing? Or happened this because I've asked you to do this, and the pace happened just on its own, without somebody directing it?
Has there to be something to be capable of leading the attention? What if attention is just an appearance flowing as it flows?

Do this little experiment:

Sit quietly for a couple of minutes, calm your breath, relax.

And then lift your right or left arm (or leave it down). While lifting or not lifting
a decision happens, at least something happens (or not).

Can you find the exact moment of decision and find the concrete essence which seems to make a decision? Is it really possible to find the moment of decision as well as the apparent "decider"? Or does the idea "I” or something decided to lift (or not) the right or left arm” emerge only after the actual event?

I'm curious what you find... :)

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

How does this feel like? Is there really an „I am“ findable, or is there just hearing?

There is only hearing. I can't say I am the hearing. Only the hearing.

Look closely: Can there space/presence be found? Can you see-hear-feel-taste-smell space/presence? How do you experience hollowness? Or is this just a story, told by thoughts? Don't think about it, LOOK!

Actually no. It must be the books and texts I read that are always concerned with those kind of words and concepts.It probably has its place but anyway - when I look I cannot find presence and I cannot find space. That is funny😁

Is „this“ or "I am" findable with DE? What if "this" and "I am" is only a concept, and there is always just what is going on right now? (Please try to forget everything you heard before about „this“, and look in your own experience...)

Again,no to both (I really think too much while I am looking now🙄) I look and there is no "I am" and even no "this".

Can you find somebody who directs the wind? Was there something willful to direct the attention to hearing or seeing? Or happened this because I've asked you to do this, and the pace happened just on its own, without somebody directing it? 

Well,when I do the little exercise to notice and label the experience to the groups like hearing,seeing,sensing.. there is no one to direct it..Even when I get about in my day.Whe I take a minute to do this exercise I see it just happens (if I look directly and dont analyze it too much in my head). The wind just changed..
I think I am stil a little puzzled about the fact that you had asked me to do this exercise and "it can be done"...I understand it is not about to get all the answers to satisfy my mind and to gain more knowledge..thank you.

Do this little experiment:

Sit quietly for a couple of minutes, calm your breath, relax. 

And then lift your right or left arm (or leave it down). While lifting or not lifting 
a decision happens, at least something happens (or not).

Can you find the exact moment of decision and find the concrete essence which seems to make a decision? Is it really possible to find the moment of decision as well as the apparent "decider"? Or does the idea "I” or something decided to lift (or not) the right or left arm” emerge only after the actual event? 

Now I am even more puzzled. I had read your instructions..then I relaxed for a while and thought about lifting arm or not lifting.Then I just left it and in some time my arm was lifted and then my fingers and again my arm.But actually there was no decision prior the movement and no one who decided to do it😁 There was just the perception of it.
But again - I am surprised that although there is no doer or decider how come this task could be accomplished. I am only in wonder..I don't look for answer to this just now:)
It is evident if I look directly there is no "I am" and there was no decider lifting my arm.

There is even no presence. I think no word can describe this anything. And there is even nothing to describe.
I have to admit I am waiting for some kind of miraculous sudden insight and maybe this can be obstacle as I know this is silly🙄

Thank you Barb, I enjoy this very much and looking forward for your next pointing 😊🙏

[barb]

There is only hearing. I can't say I am the hearing. Only the hearing.

Yes...

Actually no. It must be the books and texts I read that are always concerned with those kind of words and concepts.It probably has its place but anyway - when I look I cannot find presence and I cannot find space. That is funny?

:)

Again,no to both (I really think too much while I am looking now?) I look and there is no "I am" and even no "this".

You're doing great, you just have to learn to trust your experience more than thought stories... :)

Now I am even more puzzled. I had read your instructions..then I relaxed for a while and thought about lifting arm or not lifting.Then I just left it and in some time my arm was lifted and then my fingers and again my arm.But actually there was no decision prior the movement and no one who decided to do it? There was just the perception of it.

It's awesome, isn't it?

But again - I am surprised that although there is no doer or decider how come this task could be accomplished.

Yes, we are conditioned to believe that there is a doer, a decider and so on. When you look for yourself you don't have to believe anything anymore. Beliefs are nothing other than stories... :)

I am only in wonder..I don't look for answer to this just now:)

Wonderful, this is the best place to be...

It is evident if I look directly there is no "I am" and there was no decider lifting my arm.

There is even no presence. I think no word can describe this anything. And there is even nothing to describe.

Yes exactly, that's the way it is... :)

See how decisions are made during the day. Trace them back to their source. Is that possible?

I have to admit I am waiting for some kind of miraculous sudden insight and maybe this can be obstacle as I know this is silly?

It's very good if you can notice expectations when they come up. It is enough to observe them, they don't have to vanish...

How does this „waiting for some kind of miraculous insight“ look like? With which sense are you able to perceive it? Is it to see-hear-feel-smell-taste? Or is „waiting for insight“ thought content, based on your story of spiritual seeking. LOOK carefully!

Please write down all the reactions, body sensations, feelings and thoughts that come up when you read these sentences:

There is no I, never, nowhere, and never existed. There is no separate Sonia who experiences something. There is no Sonia who can have some miraculous insights, no one who could wake up, no one who thinks, decides and acts.

Thank you Barb, I enjoy this very much and looking forward for your next pointing

It's my pleasure to be with you :))

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

See how decisions are made during the day. Trace them back to their source. Is that possible?

I am not able to find the source of the decision. Even if I say to myself for example "I will look at the light" it is a thought perception and everything follows/is done or not.But there is no decision as such. I see that in retrospect I could then say "I decided to look up at the light" but that is not truth. Just the thought perception that iniciates or not the happening..

How does this „waiting for some kind of miraculous insight“ look like? With which sense are you able to perceive it? Is it to see-hear-feel-smell-taste? Or is „waiting for insight“ thought content, based on your story of spiritual seeking. LOOK carefully!

It is the content of the thought. As you pointed out earlier I should not be interested in the content. Only in my DE which is only the thought perception then.

Please write down all the reactions, body sensations, feelings and thoughts that come up when you read these sentences: 

There is no I, never, nowhere, and never existed. There is no separate Sonia who experiences something. There is no Sonia who can have some miraculous insights, no one who could wake up, no one who thinks, decides and acts. 

Reading these words makes my stomach feel funny. I don't know the word to describe. It is not unpleasant neither pleasant. I am just aware of a sensation that I think is connected to stomach. Maybe more like a shrinkink.
There is sadness about it. Mainly connected to the past..the "past Sonia" that is not anymore (rather than there never was..strange).The Sonia that was a good musician,that was a good friend for some,daughter and sister. The sadness is only about the past not the future or not now.
And also little bit of fear reading there is no one who thinks and decides. Again the fear is felt in my core somewhere but is not so strong as the sadness.

This really makes me sad.Very sad. I am so surprised by this emotion in response to your text.

But thank you🙏🙏