hide and seek

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Forestfriend
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hide and seek

Postby Forestfriend » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:38 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Something that overlays experience, dulling it by keeping experience steps removed from the expansiveness that it hides. The “self” takes credit for both good or bad, anything is grist for stamping “I” on experience. Calling “self” thought, or belief makes sense to me.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am tantalized by the opportunity to converse with another human being in the form of the conversations in the Gateless Gatecrashers. How thrilling to have the illusion relentlessly pried apart. I have glimpses of the absence of “self” continually, but until I read your literature, I did not have as clear an image of what is happening. I want to pass through the gate and have permission to participate in the online discussions—or at least read them.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
An opportunity to rake away resistance and confusion. It seems like the “self” finds its way to claim most of this life.
I’d really like a clearer look at how that happens. And I would like, naturally, a permanent freeing from “self”. At my age I had kinda given up on that hope.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Oh boy, life story here. Presently age 73. At age 19 took a
huge dose of LSD with the intention to “know God and see Truth” (it was billed as something that could make that happen). I was a punky rebellious atheist at the time, though my grandparents had helped build a Christian revivalist seed early on. So much happened during that LSD trip. The memory is so fresh in my mind, and as the years go by I reflect on it more and more. I have studied many spiritual forms, but that trip remains always the acid test for me as to what constitutes spiritual truth.

First I died, a scary and painful death. After surrendering to death I still existed and I saw that the question of “is there a God or not” is hilarious since there can’t be anything but God. It’s all God. I laughed at the joke that we are able to forget that reality so long and hard that my stomach muscles were sore for days. This human life is where God has gone to sleep. I saw my personal life as a crusty hazy act of futility and ignorance, crazy, and ridiculous but harmless. I regretted ever learning language because I could see how it covered up the brilliant shining beauty of existence.

Jesus, Mohamed and Buddha were hanging out together in a green field, and they welcomed me as the innocent guileless being I had momentarily become. I said to them, “We have to tell them!!” Meaning humanity really could benefit from knowing this stuff. They smiled and said, “We did.” And of course this was true and I saw how hollow ordinarily our understanding is of the ideas conveyed in scripture. How empty the words can be without the corresponding spirit to realize what they mean. I loved all and everything. I couldn’t relate to any attachment I had previously had for anything. I realized that I would be quite willing to give my boots (most precious possession at the time) to anyone who might want them.

Next day I was back to square one, uptight, selfish, and dull, dull, dull. I decided to pursue a way to realize this again without drugs. Not that I’m against drugs so much as that they come with uncomfortable effects which I haven’t bothered to describe here. Especially don’t look forward to going through the “death” experience again.

So I read In Search of the Miraculous, can’t say I understood much. Lived in a tent in the mountains, Got initiated into Transcendental Meditation, then Nichiren Buddhism. Started chanting for a proper master to show me the way. Got a voice in my head saying “Go to San Francisco”. Went there, met Chiranjiva Roy, an Indian in his mid fifties (I was 21) He was an incarnation of Siva, rapping all day and night
Divine revelation, drinking, drugs, sex, rock and roll, parties, as many babies as adults, became his 5th wife out of 9. Experienced ecstatic moments and hellish moments as one of Siva’s hords. Yes, perhaps as Siva’s whore too. I was willing to do whatever it took to stay as close to that fire (of knowledge) as I could. Chiranjiva died in 1980. Went back to school, got masters in psychology, thought I would be a therapist, after all the training realized I still knew nothing. Got a Job in a city office. Kept reading spiritual books, advaita. Took up the study of A Course in Miracles through a local reading group. Now at the same time I am taking mediation training from the local Shambhala center.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:42 am

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Forestfriend
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Forestfriend » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:06 am

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Life will be slowed down a bit. Noticing all the details and appreciating the presence of things and beings would consume attention. No more worrying regretting and fearing with no self to defend.

I think the change would be that there is no you to be. changed hence worry, regret, and fear would have nothing to relate to. That would free up some time.

My conversations would be different. Without worry. I’d be more comfortable more of the time.

What is missing now, in this moment. Peace is missing. Heart is clutched tight, not open, Brow is furrowed, unpleasant memories howl outside the barrier of positive thinking hinting at.return. Yet my circumstances look like paradise.

As you can see I'm having all sorts of difficulty with the computer aspect.

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Vivien
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:23 am

Hi Forestfriend,

How can I call you? Forestfriend? Or would you prefer some other name?

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quote function, since I will be asking lots of questions soon, and without quotation your answers could be quite hard to read.

Here is the link again how to quote:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?
Life will be slowed down a bit.
Just because the illusion of the self is seen through, life won’t change. Life is as it is.
Noticing all the details and appreciating the presence of things and beings would consume attention.
Just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean necessarily that all the details will be noticed.

Appreciating or not appreciating the presence of things is the result of conditioning, and the desire to things be different. Just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that conditionings will fall way in an instant. They won’t. So wanting or not wanting things to be in a certain way will still arise.

Perception changes and with that some reactions etc. may change. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key. LU only guides to the realisation of ‘no separate self’.
No more worrying regretting and fearing with no self to defend.
There is ALREADY no self to defend. And yet, defending happens.

Worrying, regretting, fearing, suffering happen when being lost in thoughts happens. It means that the thoughts in that moment are not seen only as arising thoughts (only as ‘containers’ coming and going), but rather their ‘content’, what they are about is taken as reality. And of course, since each thought is about the self, the self is taken as something real. And this, let’s call ‘delusion’ still can happen even after seeing the illusion of the self. But when it’s investigated, it can be seen for what it is. But there is no guaranty that in the next moment the story of a self won’t reassert itself. It’s a habit of the mind. It’s a conditioned pattern of thinking. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.

Also, personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
I think the change would be that there is no you to be. changed hence worry, regret, and fear would have nothing to relate to. That would free up some time.
This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through but there will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing, as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. It SEEMS that identifying as the separate self shows up again and again along with feelings of resistance, doubt, frustration and confusion. This is known as yo-yoing and happens to everyone and is normal. Knowing that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own makes it easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
My conversations would be different. Without worry. I’d be more comfortable more of the time.
There is a high chance that worry won’t disappear just because the self is seen through. But with lots of further looking, it can gradually lessen. So don’t expect that your conversation or worry will change in an instant.
What is missing now, in this moment. Peace is missing. Heart is clutched tight, not open, Brow is furrowed, unpleasant memories howl outside the barrier of positive thinking hinting at.return.
Peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please tell me what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Forestfriend
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Forestfriend » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:06 pm

How can I call you? Forestfriend? Or would you prefer some other name?
Forestfriend is good.

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Forestfriend
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Forestfriend » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:04 pm

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers
Yes I agree to stop which I will need to do since I read and listen to teachers constantly. I'll have to skip the Course in Miracles meeting tomorrow. That will be something.
Before starting, please tell me what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?
Lately I have been reacting against teachings that I want to believe, that tell me I must change my thoughts. I can't change my thoughts no matter how much I want to. I've tried for many years. Its a bit of a relief to read that thoughts are only containers and the content is not real. The chest is feeling open and the mind a little lost or befuddled, but in an okay fashion. It's waiting with curiosity. Of course I have read the Gateless Gatecrashers, and I had moments of comprehending these ideas, but they quickly were replaced with other less freeing ideas. I am very invested in seeking peace. It takes up a lot of space scheming and planning for peacefulness and worrying that it will be disrupted. Seeking "states", that's where I am stuck. It's like the mind can't grasp statelessness so looking at not seeking a positive state leaves me lacking a place to stand. It's neither happy nor sad, just quiet and misty. Thank you for your thorough exposition. I'm grateful for your effort.

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Vivien
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:29 am

Hi Forestfriend,
Thank you for your thorough exposition. I'm grateful for your effort.
You are welcome :)
I am very invested in seeking peace. It takes up a lot of space scheming and planning for peacefulness and worrying that it will be disrupted. Seeking "states", that's where I am stuck. It's like the mind can't grasp statelessness so looking at not seeking a positive state leaves me lacking a place to stand.
Seeking peace is a human condition, however, seeing through the self is not about having in the constant state of peace.

Let’s start it. As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and thought interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience.

Here's an exercise that will help you to see what we mean exactly by direct experience. I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= visual sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me know how you go.

Please write me a list as above for one period of doing this exercise. Don’t forget to add the corresponding labels.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: hide and seek

Postby Forestfriend » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:49 am

Please write me. list as above for one period of doing this exercise. Don't forget to add the corresponding labels.
Lying on the couch, pressure on backside and tension in the legs to hold up the laptop. The sliding door is open and a warm wind is blowing gently in from outdoors. Many trees and bushes outside quiver and shake in the wind green shades and brown shades. I can hear the breath of the wind, and the quiet scratchy commentary of the chickens. I can hear the cars on the roadway in the distance. I watch a nearby wisteria frond that hangs low. It is green and bright yellow where the sun falls on it. At first it is an interesting green shape and I feel it strike my chest softly with its presence, then the labels come: wisteria, trimmed yesterday, memories of sweeping, blowing, heaping up compost pile. Chicken noise sweet little screek, constant and soft, labels: that must be Pecker. Why does she talk so much when the others are quiet. Human form comes into sight on bicycle. Moving quickly. Label: male, on free red city bike. So I see that the impression comes first. The thought words follow behind. A tiny pain in the abdomen, just a small pain, then the thought/memory of a friend’s dying. Fear. Seems thoughts engender emotion. And the sense of badly being strong enough to focus in this way. It seems to take a sort of muscle that is very undeveloped. This is very careful and deliberate. I have to step softly with my mind to see something before the labels frost it over.

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Vivien
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:22 am

Hi Forestfriend,

I gave you this exercise to help you to differentiate between what is actually happening and what THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT what is happening.

You didn’t add the corresponding labels. I show you how to do it:

Lying on the couch = sensation
pressure on backside = sensation
and tension in the legs = sensation
The sliding door is open = image/color
and a warm wind is blowing = sensation
gently in from outdoors = thought interpretation
Many trees and bushes outside quiver and shake in the wind green shades and brown shades. = image/color + thought interpretation
I can hear the breath of the wind = sound + thought interpretation
and the quiet scratchy commentary of the chickens = sound + thought interpretation
I can hear the cars on the roadway in the distance = sound + thought interpretation
I watch a nearby wisteria frond that hangs low = image/color + thought
It is green and bright yellow = image/color
where the sun falls on it = thought interpretation
So I see that the impression comes first. = thought
The thought words follow behind. = thought
A tiny pain in the abdomen, just a small pain = sensation
then the thought/memory of a friend’s dying. = thought
Fear = sensation
Seems thoughts engender emotion.And the sense of badly being strong enough to focus in this way. It seems to take a sort of muscle that is very undeveloped. This is very careful and deliberate. I have to step softly with my mind to see something before the labels frost it over.
This is only a thought interpretation and it’s not coming from looking at AE.

Remember, you are answering from AE only and not from the intellect. The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now ie image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value.

I would like to ask you to do the exercise again but this time ADD the corresponding labels too.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Forestfriend
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Forestfriend » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:43 pm

Warm water running on fingers=Sensation
Vibration like qigong=thought interpretation
Fingers on plate=sensation
Vibration like qigong=thought interpretation
Rat eating chicken food=visual+thought interpretation
Urge for action=sensation
If I open the door rat will run=thought
Stocking feet on cold concrete=sensation
Chicken eating=visual
Is she hungry or protecting her food=thought
Wrists on cold metal surface=sensation
Golden light on chicken’s back=color/visual+thought interpretation
Fingers on chilled water glass=sensation+thought interpretation?
Am I doing this right=thought
Better check=thought
Chicken clucking=sound
Birds chirping=sound
Blue jays and mockingbirds=thought interpretation
Leaning on back support=sensation
Full belly=sensation
Light on tree painting=visulal/color
Remembering the actual tree=thought
Loud chicken cluck=audition+thought interpretation
Rat looking up at chicken food=visual/color+thought interpretation
Launch into action mode=sensation
It’s perhaps fight mode=thought
Looking for object to throw=visual+thought interpretation

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Vivien
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:26 am

Hi Forestfriend,

Thank you for redoing the exercise. I gave you this exercise to help you to differentiate between what is actually happening and what THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT what is happening.

Now we start investigating thoughts.
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 5-10 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Forestfriend
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Forestfriend » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:42 am

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
So yes, there seems to be a gap. Many times paper thin as the thoughts
run quickly together. Sometimes longer gaps without thoughts
exactly, while noticing shapes and sounds sensations and emotions.
It seems like there is a hesitation before they are labeled. This gap is a very
small and subtle thing.

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Vivien
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:56 am

Hi Forestfriend,

Looking for gaps between thoughts were a preparation exercise to help you how to observe the coming and going of thoughts and also how to look for the self later.

The whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts. So therefore, we will investigate thoughts and thought labels thoroughly.
So then let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes or longer and look similarly as you looked for the gaps between thoughts. Look for the ‘answer’ BEFORE thought interpretation kicks in.

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?


Please go through these questions and answer and quote ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Please, DON’T THINK about the answers, rather LOOK at what is before thoughts. Take your time.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Forestfriend
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Forestfriend » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:01 pm

Where do thoughts come from?
They bubble up spontaneously , seem to feel them in the middle of my head behind the eyes.
Where are they going?
They don’t go anywhere. They appear, then fade, then reappear, same form, different content.
There is nowhere for them to go since they don’t seem to occupy space.
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Yes, I have trained to replace negative thoughts with positive ones. So the emotional bite
Of a negative thought will trigger the training and the thought gets interrupted, To experiment this for the moment, I thought of my grand daughter believing a negative thought might follow, and when it did, I stopped and pictured her as innocence and light.
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
No, I can't.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No I can’t. Even though I might interrupt a negative thought and replace it once
In a while, I can’t stop negative thoughts from starting in the first place. And I lack the
Ability to try to replace them most of the time.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No, I seems to be a name for a whole collection of thoughts and the body that is their location.
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
I sometimes is a name for a group of thoughts occurring in a particular time frame and the body that is their location. The one that thinks is an ongoing response from the memories and present impressions that belong to this body/location.
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
Can’t find thinker. Thought seems to be automatic. However there seem to be thoughts that are like managers. The manager thought can momentarily emphasize certain thoughts. So that manager thought could seem to be a thinker when really it is bunching certain thoughts together in a time frame like when some goal or other is being pursued.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
No, can’t find a thinker, only groups of thoughts that can be associated with this body.
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
It’s a name for the line of thought that is coming from this particular life form.
The thinking is an automatic selection process, probably does come from the brain just the way that liver enzymes come from the liver. However, I’m not aware of the liver enzymes while I am aware of the thought. There’s that I word. A name for the location of the thought of the moment.
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
I don’t know what I am. I’m as much a mystery as the universe and the beetle. If thoughts occur it is because they are a natural part of whatever is.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
I can’t prevent thoughts from occurring and I can’t communicate in this context without the word ‘I’ which also requires the thought ‘I’. I try to do without the word and it seems that even If I had no language I think I would still have the sense of being an individual body which is like the concept ‘I’. It’s a name for an individual viewpoint coming from a flesh enclosure. A way to get and do for that enclosure so that it survives for a while.

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Vivien
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Re: hide and seek

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:27 am

Hi Forestfriend,

Some of your replies didn’t come from looking at AE, but rather from thought interpretation.
But that’s all right in the beginning. We are so used to think and take the content of thoughts are reality, that we hardly know how to look at the experience directly without thought interpretation.

But in order to see through the self, you have to shift your attention from looking at what THOUGHTS have to say ABOUT AE, to LOOKING the EXPERIENCE DIRECTLY.
V: Where do thoughts come from?
F: They bubble up spontaneously , seem to feel them in the middle of my head behind the eyes.
V: Where are they going?
F: They don’t go anywhere. They appear, then fade, then reappear, same form, different content.
There is nowhere for them to go since they don’t seem to occupy space.
When a sentence starts with “It SEEMS” or “It FEELS like” then it’s a sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, a thought interpretation.

Please read your comments above again. They contradict themselves.
At first you say that thoughts are felt in the middle of your head behind the eyes, but in your second comment you say that thoughts don’t occupy space.

Now, please close your eyes, and just observe thoughts coming and going.

Can a thought be FELT at all?
Or only the sensations of the head can be felt?

How is ‘thoughts coming from the head’ is actually experienced?
Can this be experienced at all?
Or only verbal and visual thoughts suggest so?
Yes, I have trained to replace negative thoughts with positive ones. So the emotional bite
Of a negative thought will trigger the training and the thought gets interrupted, To experiment this for the moment, I thought of my grand daughter believing a negative thought might follow, and when it did, I stopped and pictured her as innocence and light.
Let’s examine this.

Thought 1: “my granddaughter did something naughty”
Thought 2: “I just had a negative thought of my granddaughter, let’s replace with a positive one”
Thought 3: “So stop, and rather picture her as innocent and light”
Thought 4: A visual thought appear showing her as innocent and surrounded by light

If there is no such thing as a thinker, then what is it exactly that noticed that thought 1 was negative?
Did thought 2 noticed that thought 1 was negative?
Did thought 2 made thought 3?
And what is it that decided to have the visual thought 4? Was it thought 2 or 3? Or something outside of these thoughts?
Does the visual thought 4 know about thought 1 or 2 or 3?
Even though I might interrupt a negative thought and replace it once
“Even though I might interrupt a negative thought and replace it” – what does the word ‘I’ points to in this sentence?
What is it exactly that could interrupt and replace a negative thought?
Where is this one exactly that is interrupting and replacing a negative thought? – find the exact location
In a while, I can’t stop negative thoughts from starting in the first place.
What is it exactly that can’t stop a negative thought from starting up?
And I lack the ability to try to replace them most of the time.
What is it exactly that is lacking the ability to try to replace them most of the time?
Where is this entity exactly?
V: Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
F: No, I seems to be a name for a whole collection of thoughts and the body that is their location.
Without thoughts, how is it known that the body is the location of thoughts?
When putting aside all intellectual knowledge, what is the experience of thoughts being inside or belonging to the body?
I sometimes is a name for a group of thoughts occurring in a particular time frame and the body that is their location. The one that thinks is an ongoing response from the memories and present impressions that belong to this body/location.
This is a thought story, and has nothing to do with looking at AE.
Can’t find thinker. Thought seems to be automatic. However there seem to be thoughts that are like managers. The manager thought can momentarily emphasize certain thoughts. So that manager thought could seem to be a thinker when really it is bunching certain thoughts together in a time frame like when some goal or other is being pursued.
You wrote: “there SEEMS TO BE thoughts that are LIKE mangers”. – SEEMS, LIKE – these are the signs for you to know that this is just an analogy, this is just a thought story, and it’s not coming from looking at experience directly.

You are talking as if there were hierarchies among thoughts.
As if certain thoughts have powers over other thoughts.
As if certain thoughts would be entities, who could manage, emphasize or influence or bunch together other thoughts. But is this REALLY the case?

Remember, you are answering from AE only and not from the intellect. The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now ie image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value.

What is the AE of a manger thought? Is it a sound, color, smell, taste, sensation or thought?
What is the AE of certain thoughts having powers?

Are thoughts are entities that could perform certain activities, like managing, emphasizing, etc?
Or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT managing, emphasizing, etc?

No, can’t find a thinker, only groups of thoughts that can be associated with this body.
And what is it that is associating thoughts with the body?
Isn’t the association happens only in thought?

The thinking is an automatic selection process, probably does come from the brain just the way that liver enzymes come from the liver. However, I’m not aware of the liver enzymes while I am aware of the thought.
This is a learned knowledge, it doesn’t come from looking at AE.

Can it be ACTUALLY experienced that thoughts are coming from the brain?
What is the AE of brain? Is it a sound, color, smell, taste, sensation or thought?

Can brain as such be experienced at all?
Let alone thoughts are coming from the brain?
I don’t know what I am. I’m as much a mystery as the universe and the beetle. If thoughts occur it is because they are a natural part of whatever is.
This is a thought speculation, it doesn’t come from looking at experience.
I try to do without the word and it seems that even If I had no language I think I would still have the sense of being an individual body which is like the concept ‘I’. It’s a name for an individual viewpoint coming from a flesh enclosure. A way to get and do for that enclosure so that it survives for a while.
“Sense of being an individual body” – sense = sensation

Without thoughts, can it be known that I = individual body?


Please look very carefully with each question.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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