Grateful for a Guide

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Molly13
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Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:18 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That humans are conditioned from a young age to believe that we are a separate “self”. That we have free will and that this “self” we think we are, is running the show. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

What are you looking for at LU?

My working the steps in LU book last week has me part (?) of the way there, but I am hoping for a guide to help me with this last push through the gate. I am available to dedicate myself to this process!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
After much writing and direct looking (Intellectual understanding did not get me very far) I now see the individual self as non-existent, but would like to be questioned/guided to feel more solid in my experiential understanding.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been aware of nonduality teachings for about 10 years. I have not been an active seeker, but early on had an “aha” moment and paradigm shift when I realized that time was a mental construct and how can it be any time but now?! That was the beginning of the domino effect. I did not have a practice (or teachers) that I followed, but I did have an intellectual understanding, that allowed me to travel lighter. My mantra has been “what’s wrong with right now if you don’t think about it.” (Sailor Bob).

I had also heard the message that there is nothing to be done, which until I came across LU last week for the first time, I took literally. I did nothing. I find the writing process a way for me to experience direct observation where thinking just gets me into trouble!

There was always a sensation of tightness in my chest, but I did not experience any other resistance to “seeing”. A couple weeks ago I started writing and copying passages into a journal. Last week I came across The LU book and Gateless Gatecrashers. I have read both, and completed the Steps in LU book. Then I found the LU website and listened to a couple podcasts.

One session of guiding was profound for me and led me to doing the Steps one more time with new insights. And I finally saw! And here I am two weeks later hoping for a guide for the last step over the line :-)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:04 am

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:29 am

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for responding to my request. I have read your message and links. I will follow steps 1-5 and well as post once a day. If I am unable to post, I will let you know.
How will Life change?

I do not believe that Life will change at all. It will just go on as it always has.
How will you change?

The only change I hope to see in myself is the dis-identification with my thoughts. I believe this may make me more peaceful.
What will be different?
I would like to see thoughts for what they are and not take them so seriously. Living in what’s happening now and not the future (thoughts). I tend to be a ruminator.
What is missing?
I actually do not feel anything is missing in this moment.

Kind regards,
~Molly

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:19 am

Hi Molly,

Looking at expectations are important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?
The only change I hope to see in myself is the dis-identification with my thoughts.
There is ALREADY no self there, so there is nothing that could disidentify with thoughts.

For many, there is an expectation that the sense of self will be gone completely, never asserting itself ever again. But this is not the case. Due to a lifetime of conditioning, self-constructs still arise out of habit. It needs time and lots of further looking for it to gradually dissolve.
I believe this may make me more peaceful.
Peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
I would like to see thoughts for what they are and not take them so seriously. Living in what’s happening now and not the future (thoughts). I tend to be a ruminator.
Suffering happens when being lost in thoughts happens. It means that the thoughts in that moment are not seen only as arising thoughts (only as ‘containers’ coming and going), but rather their ‘content’, what they are about is taken as reality. And of course, since each thought is about the self, the self is taken as something real. And this, let’s call ‘delusion’ still can happen even after seeing the illusion of the self. But when it’s investigated, it can be seen for what it is. But there is no guaranty that in the next moment the story of a self won’t reassert itself. It’s a habit of the mind. It’s a conditioned pattern of thinking. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.

Also, personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
I have been aware of nonduality teachings for about 10 years.
I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge for the time of our investigation. Sometimes for those who engaged with nonduality teachings the illusion of awareness/consciousness could be a stumbling block to see through. So it’s important to be open to see things for yourself.
I have not been an active seeker, but early on had an “aha” moment and paradigm shift when I realized that time was a mental construct and how can it be any time but now?!
Great!

Before starting, please tell me what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?


Let’s start it. As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and thought interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience.
Here's an exercise that will help you to see what we mean exactly by direct experience. I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= visual sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me know how you go. Please write a list as above for one period of doing this exercise.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:03 am

Before starting, please tell me what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
All of what you wrote makes sense to me. I try to write clearly, but using language/words for these thoughts (expectations in this case) can be challenging! Thank you for the clarifications...
Was there any resistance to any of it?
I did not experience any resistance! And I am happy to focus soley on this process so as not to confuse the mind with differemt concepts.

I will post my actual/direct experiences for a session when completed.

Molly

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Molly13
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A/D Experiment

Postby Molly13 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:45 am

Please write a list as above for one period of doing this exercise.
Here is the results of A/D experiment this evening.

Snack
Seeing red cabbage = sight
Holding the cabbage leaf = sensation
Chewing red cabbage = taste, smell, sound, sensation
Swallowing cabbage = sensation

Reading
Picking up book = sight, touch
Holding book = touch
Reading = sight, thought, sensation (eyes moving)
Turning page = touch, sight, sound (paper moving)

Petting the cat = touch, sensation, sight

This exercise is excellent for focussing on what is happening. I needed to relax and observe. I ate the cabbage slowly and was able to add more to the list as I went along.

Molly

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:31 am

Hi Molly,
Petting the cat = touch, sensation, sight
You are making a distinction between touch and sensation. But is there really?

Close your eyes and put one of your hands onto a table.
With closed eyes look for the touch and then look for the sensation.

Are there two things there? Touch + sensation?
What is the actual experience (AE) of touch?


Now repeat the same with touching your cat (with closed eyes).
Is there a touch + sensation?
This exercise is excellent for focussing on what is happening.
Yes. I gave you this exercise to helps you to differentiate between what is actually happening and what THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT what is happening.

Now we start investigating thoughts.
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 5-10 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.


Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:55 am

Now repeat the same with touching your cat (with closed eyes).
Is there a touch + sensation?
Yes, I see what you are saying. I did the exercise again several times with eyes closed. I was making a distinction between touch (physically touching the cat) and sensation (how the long fur feels on my hand). In this case it may be accurate to say it was simply touch.

Out of curiosity though... the fan is blowing gently in my room. I can feel the air lightly on my bare arm. I would call that sensation, but not touch. Am I getting too specific here and losing the point?

Molly

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:32 am

Hi Molly,
I did the exercise again several times with eyes closed. I was making a distinction between touch (physically touching the cat) and sensation (how the long fur feels on my hand). In this case it may be accurate to say it was simply touch.
It’s the other way around.
There is NO AE of touch.
Touch is just a thought label on the actual experience of the pure sensation.
Out of curiosity though... the fan is blowing gently in my room. I can feel the air lightly on my bare arm. I would call that sensation, but not touch. Am I getting too specific here and losing the point?
The word ‘touch’ implies that there is something (subject) touching the object. However, it is not in correspondence with the direct experience. We will investigate this later when examining the body and sensations.

I feel the air lightly on my bare arm = sensation
Touch is not actual experience.

So actual experience (AE) is: sounds, smells, taste, colour/image, sensation, and seeing the appearance of a thought (the face value of thought). But what the thought about is not AE.

I would like to ask you to quote and reply to every question separately. All my questions will be in blue. I will ask lots of questions in the future, and all questions will point to the direction where you should look. All right?

Please don’t forget to the previous exercise on looking for the gaps between the thoughts. Let me know how it goes.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:45 am

There is NO AE of touch.
Haha, I see!
I will ask lots of questions in the future, and all questions will point to the direction where you should look. All right?
Yes.
I would like to ask you to quote and reply to every question separately.
Do you mean separately within one post like I have done here, or a separate post (“reply”) for each?
Please don’t forget to the previous exercise on looking for the gaps between the thoughts. Let me know how it goes.
I have noted the gaps between thoughts exercise in my journal, and will post tomorrow after observations.

Thank you,
Molly

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:02 am

Hi Molly,
Do you mean separately within one post like I have done here, or a separate post (“reply”) for each?
The first one, just as you did in your last post (separately within one post). Making separate posts for each just would make a big mess :)
I have noted the gaps between thoughts exercise in my journal, and will post tomorrow after observations.
All right. I’m looking forward to it.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:38 am

Hi Vivien,
Let me know how it goes.
I spent quite awhile last night and today doing this exercise. What I noticed is that my thoughts are primarily subvocalizations. Unless I am solving a design problem (my job), it seemed to be a steady stream of what sounds like “my” voice speaking. I realized it also happens as I write. It seems to be narrating all the time! It was exhausting to observe. Until this exercise, it never occurred to me to question whether everybody perceives thoughts this way. Do some people just see thoughts without the annoying voice over?

So to the point of the exercise. The gaps between the thoughts. Last night there were short ones, sometimes it would seem to be quiet, only for me to realize the voice (thoughts) were there, just very quiet. The more I observed, it reminded me of a sports announcer who must keep talking non stop even though there was no real information to share about the game. Lots of filler. The more I noticed, the more annoyed I became with the incessant drone, I have to admit though, it was also kind of funny. So yes, there were gaps, but very short ones.

This morning I tried it again. Perhaps I was more relaxed, but I noticed the gaps were longer, some of the time. The act of looking seem to put the voice into high gear though as I silently narrated my observations as I did the exercise.

Later, I put on quiet “atmospheric” music. I noticed the voice quieted and the gaps were longer.

Molly

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:52 am

Hi Molly,
Do some people just see thoughts without the annoying voice over?
This is a human condition. We all share this.
The more I observed, it reminded me of a sports announcer who must keep talking non stop even though there was no real information to share about the game. Lots of filler.
Yes, this is how it is. Great looking. :)
The more I noticed, the more annoyed I became with the incessant drone,
What is it exactly that could get annoyed?

Looking for gaps between thoughts were a preparation exercise to help you how to observe the coming and going of thoughts and also how to look for the self later.

The whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts. So therefore, we will investigate thoughts and thought labels thoroughly.
So then let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes or longer and look similarly as you looked for the gaps between thoughts. Look for the ‘answer’ BEFORE thought interpretation kicks in.

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?


Please go through these questions and answer and quote ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Please, DON’T THINK about the answers, rather LOOK at what is before thoughts. Take your time.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:48 am

What is it exactly that could get annoyed?
Best I can say is that there was annoyance. There is no one to get annoyed :-)
Where do thoughts come from?
I do not know. They appear and disappear on their own. They arise and fall away.
Where are they going?
They are like clouds or smoke. They disappear. In my experience there is no thinker, there is just thinking.
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
No, "I" cannot.
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Absolutely not.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No.
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
I do not think, there is just an observance of thought.
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
There is no thinker!
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

No, there is no thinker. I am not the thinker and no one else is thinking for "me", so there is no thinker.
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
"I" is just a thought. Holy cow! "I" is a thought! What else could it be?! It's not like some thoughts are out of "our" control and others are "real". I can see how the "I" categorizes thought... stuff like "I am sad" and "I love pizza" is "real" where endless worries, or banal and repetitive thoughts are somehow are not real because they are running in the background. And the fact that any thoughts "seem" connected is what gives the sense of there being a "me" thinking, of that doer-ship. It is what creates that 3-D feeling of realness. Wow. Wow. Wow. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me!?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Being thought. Thoughts cannot think.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
No, thoughts just happen. It's no different than a stomach rumbling or blood pumping. It's just happening, and no "one" is doing it!!!!!

I got this surge of energy as I worked on this exercise. Direct experience is AMAZING!!!!

Molly

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:16 am

Hi Molly,

You did a nice looking.
I got this surge of energy as I worked on this exercise. Direct experience is AMAZING!!!!
I’m glad you like it :) It’s a very useful tool to separate what is really happening from what is just imagined.
I do not think, there is just an observance of thought.
“I do not think, there is just an observance of thought.” – What does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
What is it exactly that is observing thoughts?
I am not the thinker and no one else is thinking for "me", so there is no thinker.
“I am not the thinker and no one else is thinking for "me"”- What does the word ‘I’ point to in this sentence?
"I" is just a thought. Holy cow! "I" is a thought! What else could it be?! It's not like some thoughts are out of "our" control and others are "real". I can see how the "I" categorizes thought... stuff like "I am sad" and "I love pizza" is "real" where endless worries, or banal and repetitive thoughts are somehow are not real because they are running in the background. And the fact that any thoughts "seem" connected is what gives the sense of there being a "me" thinking, of that doer-ship. It is what creates that 3-D feeling of realness. Wow. Wow. Wow. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me!?
Great looking!

What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?


It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

What does generate thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Is “I” a place where thoughts appear, or is “I” a thought that arises and subsides by itself?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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