direct experience over intellectual understanding

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:17 pm

Hi Vivien,
If you were in a desert close to dying of thirst, would you be able to quench your thirst and saving your life by thinking about water, or would you need the actual, experientable water?
If you say that you would need the actual experientiable water, then why? Why thinking of water wouldn’t be enough?
Yes, I would definitely need actual experienceable water. Thinking of water would not actually quench one’s thirst. It could be imagined that it did, but not in actuality.
So what is that reason? Why are we giving more weight to experience than to thoughts?
We are giving weight to experience than thoughts because experience is always happening presently. Thoughts don’t have any substance and aren’t always directly connected with actual sensory experience. So in that sense experience is more “real” than thought content. Experience happens, thoughts happen. But thought content doesn’t happen.
You have to see this again and again and again. Until you no longer believe the thought “I am thinking”.

So no matter how busy you are during the day, look many times to check if you are thinking or thoughts just appear.
I am getting a little better with remembering to look. I am trying to stay really hyper focused - to not consider all these other alternatives that thoughts come up with- but to always looks at the source of thoughts. I think that there are still blinders on in a lot of situations- where I won’t remember to look because I’m too “caught up”. I know I just have to stay focused and it will start to penetrate more- to continue to really SEE that in every different type of situation or emotional reaction there is no doer of it.

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:10 am

Hi Kelly,
I think that there are still blinders on in a lot of situations- where I won’t remember to look because I’m too “caught up”. I know I just have to stay focused and it will start to penetrate more- to continue to really SEE that in every different type of situation or emotional reaction there is no doer of it.
Yes! So please continue to look at this as often as possible. After a few days, let me know how it goes.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:09 pm

Hi Vivien,

I’ve definitely been remembering to look more often in the last few days but it’s a strange thing where I look and it feels almost matter of fact that there is no “me” there doing any of this. And yet even though there isn’t, the character of Kelly still remains exactly the same, reacting, taking things personal, getting emotional, stressing out, etc, etc. So then I start wondering what’s the point of “trying to hard” to keep seeing this. And yet I see that’s just what’s happening in the story of Kelly too...

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:42 am

Hi Kelly,
I’ve definitely been remembering to look more often in the last few days but it’s a strange thing where I look and it feels almost matter of fact that there is no “me” there doing any of this. And yet even though there isn’t, the character of Kelly still remains exactly the same, reacting, taking things personal, getting emotional, stressing out, etc, etc. So then I start wondering what’s the point of “trying to hard” to keep seeing this. And yet I see that’s just what’s happening in the story of Kelly too...
The point is to SEE that nothing is serious. Nothing is dead serious what is supposedly happening to Kelly. Since Kelly is missing from the picture :)

Are you still motivated to look?

If yes, please continue with what you’ve been doing in the last few days.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:49 pm

Hi Vivien,
The point is to SEE that nothing is serious. Nothing is dead serious what is supposedly happening to Kelly. Since Kelly is missing from the picture :)
That’s whats so strange about this! Because the character of Kelly still takes things very seriously- and yet that’s just how it’s happening. There’s no one separate from that to have perspective on it and to not take seriously the way in which Kelly takes everything seriously! So a bit of nihilism has been coming up lately. It’s a bit more of a laziness to look because what’s the difference between seeing that no one is doing this versus not seeing it? Everything seems to carry on in the same way. I had a few glimpses a while back of nondoership that felt profound but for some reason it feels ordinary now. I’m not sure what I’m not seeing! There’s also a desire to somehow go deeper into the looking, but I’m not sure how. Whenever I remember I just look “behind” what is happening to see if there’s an actual effort or choice being made- which I never find. There is no “behind”.

Thanks so much for hanging in there with me Vivien...

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:45 pm

Hi Kelly,
There’s no one separate from that to have perspective on it and to not take seriously the way in which Kelly takes everything seriously! So a bit of nihilism has been coming up lately.
Can you see that nihilism is based on the belief in the character Kelly?

In order to nihilism to appear the character has to be taken as something real, and not seen as imagined.

So thoughts like “what’s the point of all of this?” comes up, because what can I get out of this? What can I gain? What can this investigation do for me? There is no point in this if I don’t gain something out of this. – All if these are beliefs on the character, and the character taken to be something real.

So you have to see through these thoughts when they happen.

You have to look for the me who wants to get something out of it and it’s disappointed that it won’t happen.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:32 pm

Hi Vivien,
Can you see that nihilism is based on the belief in the character Kelly?
Yes, I can see that... but SO much that arises is based on the belief in the character Kelly! It’s as if the remembrance to see through it needs to become as instinctual as breathing- that it can’t really be seen through unless it’s seen through in every single moment. That’s whats been so frustrating. On the one hand it seems like nonexistence of Kelly as the doer/feeler/thinker etc should be so obviously, but most times, for some reason it still feels so confusing to truly see it. There’s the notion that the looking should get easier and more habitual with practice but it seems to be the opposite.
In order to nihilism to appear the character has to be taken as something real, and not seen as imagined.
This confuses me too, because so, so much of what appears is based on the belief of the character being real... but that too is also just what is appearing. But you’re saying that when the character is seen through, things would in fact change as a result of it- other beliefs being dropped. Maybe my conviction just isn’t strong enough yet?
You have to look for the me who wants to get something out of it and it’s disappointed that it won’t happen.
But wouldn’t the character still instinctually react this way? Since there’s still an “appearance” of Kelly making decisions and wanting things to go certain ways.

I don’t know why there are some moments of clarity and then I start to get bogged down in so much confusion again!

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:22 am

Hi Kelly,
Yes, I can see that... but SO much that arises is based on the belief in the character Kelly! It’s as if the remembrance to see through it needs to become as instinctual as breathing- that it can’t really be seen through unless it’s seen through in every single moment.
No, it’s not necessary to see through it every single moment. Not at all.
It’s the depth of the seeing that matters.
But you’re saying that when the character is seen through, things would in fact change as a result of it- other beliefs being dropped. Maybe my conviction just isn’t strong enough yet?
There are some changes, but what changes exactly cannot be known in advance, since it’s different for everyone.
And yes, your conviction is not strong or rather say, deep enough. It’s still mainly on the intellectual level, rather than experiential.
V: You have to look for the me who wants to get something out of it and it’s disappointed that it won’t happen.
K: But wouldn’t the character still instinctually react this way? Since there’s still an “appearance” of Kelly making decisions and wanting things to go certain ways.
You see, you are intellectualizing again. You are thinking about the pointer, instead of looking.
Don’t try to understand things, rather LOOK.

Just LOOK!

Here is another exercise for you.

Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a flower.

How does the visual thought of a flower arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a flower to appear?
How do you make that happen?

Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of flowers are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?

If not, how does that particular flower appear from all the possible flowers that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?

Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the flower to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?

And what about its size and shape? Is the size and shape your doing?

Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a flower?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:49 pm

Hi Vivien,
Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a flower.

How does the visual thought of a flower arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a flower to appear?
How do you make that happen?
Doing an exercise like this is very clear to me- the flower simply appears without any effort or “trying” to make it do so.
Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of flowers are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?
No! A specific type just appears out of nowhere. There is no choosing from all of the types. Even if there was “choosing”, that would bring up the question of how all the types that were chosen from arose.
If not, how does that particular flower appear from all the possible flowers that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?
I want to say that it’s a brain functioning that just happens based on one’s past experiences of flowers... blah blah blah, but that is just the thought story about it. There is absolutely nothing “I” do to choose the particular flower that appears.
Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the flower to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?And what about its size and shape? Is the size and shape your doing?
No, it just appears as a full image! Color, shape, size, type and all.
Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a flower?
No, I cannot observe any such thing. And when I remember to look in day to day circumstances, I never observe a mind or a self. There’s always just the appearance and never anything behind it. And yet, again, it feels somewhat matter of fact but I can’t seem to go deeper into the seeing. It’s almost like its so obvious that I just get lazy to keep looking because there’s never a self to be found. But I don’t know why there’s still this strange sense of confusion lurking. Like the belief in the self is still hiding somewhere. Does the depth of seeing have to do with the type of situations that I look at? Maybe I need to attempt to look more during the situations where I feel like I’m making really distinct decisions. But even in just thinking about doing that, it’s so obvious that all the components of a “decision making process” still just appear!

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:30 am

Hi Kelly,
And when I remember to look in day to day circumstances, I never observe a mind or a self. There’s always just the appearance and never anything behind it
What is the APPEARANCE of a self or a mind?
Is there even such thing as the ‘appearance of a self/mind’?
How does a self or a mind supposedly appear?
It’s almost like its so obvious that I just get lazy to keep looking because there’s never a self to be found.
And this is the problem. Kelly, you don’t see it clearly, otherwise this conversation would have been over a long ago. You adopted the belief that there is no self, and you don’t look enough and deep enough based on this belief. There is no point in looking if you ALREADY KNOW. But what you miss here is that this knowing is mainly intellectual. Which is honestly quite useless.
But I don’t know why there’s still this strange sense of confusion lurking. Like the belief in the self is still hiding somewhere.
Yes, since it’s still on the intellectual level.
Does the depth of seeing have to do with the type of situations that I look at? Maybe I need to attempt to look more during the situations where I feel like I’m making really distinct decisions
Exactly this is what you have to do. When it seems like and feels like as if there were a self/me, you have to look in that very moment. This is THE KEY!

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:33 pm

Hi Vivien,
K: And when I remember to look in day to day circumstances, I never observe a mind or a self. There’s always just the appearance and never anything behind it
V: What is the APPEARANCE of a self or a mind?
Is there even such thing as the ‘appearance of a self/mind’?
How does a self or a mind supposedly appear?
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I meant that there’s only the appearance of what’s happening- sensory perceptions and thoughts. Never the appearance of a “self” entity or mind.
Kelly, you don’t see it clearly, otherwise this conversation would have been over a long ago. You adopted the belief that there is no self, and you don’t look enough and deep enough based on this belief. There is no point in looking if you ALREADY KNOW. But what you miss here is that this knowing is mainly intellectual. Which is honestly quite useless.
I see that issue, I do! I don’t know what I’m having such a difficult time overcoming it. I try to remind myself to look as often as possible, and have posted notes around to remind me too. I look and I see that all these actions and feelings appear without a source, so it’s hard not to develop a belief around that. I just don’t know how to look in a deeper way. I’ve been trying to look more when I “can’t make up my mind” or when I feel really sorry for myself about something. I see that these thoughts and feelings are just coming and going, along with everything else. I wonder if it’s challenging because when I remember to look, it’s always a reflection on what has already happened. Like right now, I’m looking to see where theses words are coming from that I’m typing to you- it is still a mental thought process to see that these words simply appearing is all there is- nothing behind them whatsoever. Am I not looking correctly somehow?

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:02 am

Hi Kelly,
Is it possible that you have a resistance or a fear to look deeper and really see through the self?

It’s often fear and resistance that is blocking deeper looking. Please look into this.

How do you imagine what would happen when the self is seen thought?
What it would be / feel like?

What do you expect to happen?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:30 am

Hi Vivien,
Is it possible that you have a resistance or a fear to look deeper and really see through the self?
Yes, it seems like that could be underlying. I keep trying to look for the fear and resistance though and I don’t find anything- it feels like a blind spot.
How do you imagine what would happen when the self is seen thought? What it would be / feel like? What do you expect to happen?
When I started this process with you I definitely had expectations- that the seeing through of the self would bring a new perspective with less rigid focus on all “my” stuff, a deeper appreciation for life in some sense, and a strong desire to want to help others to see it too. But right now I think I’ve adopted the belief that nothing will happen and nothing will change, so that’s where the “what’s the point?” attitude comes in. I’ve stopped listening to or reading anything from any other teachers, which is good in one hand, but also speaks to my loss of passion. I feel like I have to want it with every bone in my body, so to say, in order to really see it. And yet, when I did feel closer to that way, I was more confused than ever because I was thinking so much about it. So it just kind of feels like limbo somehow...

Kelly

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Vivien
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Vivien » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:42 am

Hi Kelly,

So currently, what is the reason you would like to see through the self-illusion?
In the scale of 0-10 how motivated you are?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Free2K
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Re: direct experience over intellectual understanding

Postby Free2K » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:12 am

Hi Vivien,
So currently, what is the reason you would like to see through the self-illusion?
At this point, my honest answer would be to see what happens. Ive stripped away my expectations so I don’t really consider the “aftermath” or the benefits that I used to think about 24/7.
In the scale of 0-10 how motivated you are?
In one sense I want to say I’m still a 10 in motivation. But again, since I’ve stripped away everything I thought could or would happen when the self is seen through, I just don’t think about it as much. So it’s this strange fine line. There’s still a very deep desire to see through it but I guess the desperation has faded.

Kelly


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