Process of Awakening

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
SynchroNous1
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:17 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No there is not. It was never there. It was produced by my thoughts. It still gets produced by my thoughts… because thoughts do not cease. But it does not have an existence outside of thought constructs.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self starts from thoughts and feelings which construct it. Thoughts, feelings, time, history… all kind of tied up together to build a “self.” We think it is real because we believe in thoughts and their constructs. Even when we realise we are not our thoughts, it is really difficult to experience this at all times and one can get fooled.

I have been meditating for years and had found my inner self / inner guru…. Yet I continued to get fooled when thoughts were about spirituality and “spiritual self”. This bit is what you helped me with. Thoughts had constructed a “spiritual self” that is advancing, needs to advance etc.

Now I rest in what is…. Thoughts are still there and I do get sucked into thinking and then have to let go…. It is a process that is that way. But my sense of inner expanded space is what I rest in, quite peacefully and in gratitude. Without seeking more.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
It is hugely relaxing and clear like clear water that one can see through. I am relieved at not needing to seek. I do get questions about “more spiritually advanced teachers”… but I let the questions arise and I do not need to seek answers.

The difference is the losing of urgency to advance and seek… reach a spiritual goal… and a sadness at not reaching some goal. There is nothing to do except to enjoy what is. That is peaceful.

I have always been told… “’Grace’ is needed to realise…” I realise Grace is here. I need to not seek more and ask for more. It is already here.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The last bit was about your insisting that I look at my anxiety and urgency around spiritual advancement – to see what really was there, is it real, where is it coming from. I found that it was again the play of the mind.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
I rest in what is. Decision come from there. Intention comes from there. Free will, choice come from there. I do not know about “control”. I don’t feel “control” anywhere. “Control” seems unnecessary.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work
Things happen out of where I rest. They happen in ways that my mind would not have the capacity to understand. It is beyond language or reason or explanation in any conventional way.
Things work from where I rest. They always have. They always do.
c) What are you responsible for?
There is no “I” that is responsible for anything except to rest in what is and live how life unfolds. That does not mean thoughts do not come, or it is all “happiness”. It is what it is… sometimes, just quiet, sometimes dynamic and alive…
Sometimes I think… is this it? I may even feel a bit bored and sleepy… then I either sleep / nap or go for a walk or see family or something.

I do have “bad” moments with someone who irritates me…. I see that as no one’s problem; I no longer blame anyone – the other person or myself. It is what it is and I then think of steps to get around such situations.
d) Give examples from experience
I feel calm and clear mostly.

In “bad” or “tough” moments, I may argue, even cry…. But underneath it all there is love for all and a calmness that I will get through this. These are moments that come.

When I feel like I am “seeking” for “spiritual advancement”, I let that thought come and stay however long it wants (usually not long). I do not argue or resist it. I just rest in what is, in appreciation.

At times, I get thoughts like… my awakening is such a quiet and gentle process (although I have had dramatic revelations in the past). My mind wants more “drama”, more “bells and whistles”… there are enough books and videos out there about people experiencing dramatic things. But after my interaction with you, I see such thoughts as just arising, and I do not need to do anything about them. They can come and go as they please.
6) Anything to add?
I am learning every day how to rest in what is, more and more. Thoughts never stop coming --- but I guess that is human living. I feel tremendous compassion or heartbreak when I watch suffering by people, who need not suffer. But I guess it is the journey of every person.

I am a social activist and so fighting injustice has been my goal all my life. I pray for guidance so that this work unfolds through love and compassion for the good of all.

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:37 am

fine! well, I like to invite you having a clother look at some aspects here. For all question/ enquiery I give you here: please look in direct experience (no mental explanations) realy look and tell me what you find:
Now I rest in what is…
I am learning every day how to rest in what is, more and more.
This I that rests .... tell me about. what is it that rests? what do you find?
This "learning" to rest, is it something "you" can do or something that is happening by itself? Look very closely for what is happenenig!
I have been meditating for years and had found my inner self / inner guru
Is your inner self / inner guru still there? Tell me about? What do you find?
Thoughts are still there and I do get sucked into thinking and then have to let go
Here again: look for this process of "then have to let go": are you doing this? How does it happen?
Is there a decision to do so?
I rest in what is. Decision come from there. Intention comes from there. Free will, choice come from there. I do not know about “control”. I don’t feel “control” anywhere. “Control” seems unnecessary.
Do you see a difference between " come from there" and "it just happens"? Can you find the location named "there"?
There is no “I” that is responsible for anything except to rest in what is and live how life unfolds.
Look for this "except". Who can decide to rest or not, to look or not? Is there anyone who can do this decision to rest or not? How does it happen?
That does not mean thoughts do not come, or it is all “happiness”. It is what it is… sometimes, just quiet, sometimes dynamic and alive…Sometimes I think… is this it? I may even feel a bit bored and sleepy…
yes, wondefull. This is one of the biggest traps on this way: thinking only pleasant states mean "I got it".
My mind wants more “drama”, more “bells and whistles”… there are enough books and videos out there about people experiencing dramatic things. But after my interaction with you, I see such thoughts as just arising, and I do not need to do anything about them. They can come and go as they please.
:-)

Love Ve

User avatar
SynchroNous1
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:46 am

Dear Ve

I loved these questions. I learned a lot. Such subtleties... amazing.
This I that rests .... tell me about. what is it that rests? what do you find?
This "learning" to rest, is it something "you" can do or something that is happening by itself? Look very closely for what is happenenig!
I use the word “I” for convenience sake. No one is resting. There is no resting. What actually happens is a shift…. It’s like a “state”… shifting state.

There is no “I” that is learning.. What I mean to describe is… this “state” shift. “I” am not doing it… No. But the shift takes place… just does, like a curtain moving?.... shifting from one state/ space to another state/space, just next door, so to speak.
There is no “I’, no “curtain”…. I am trying to describe the feel of the experience.
Is your inner self / inner guru still there? Tell me about? What do you find?
That “state”/space that I describe above is what I call inner self / inner guru. There is no “person”… but that is the label or name I give it.
Here again: look for this process of "then have to let go": are you doing this? How does it happen?
Is there a decision to do so?
Now that you ask, there is no “I” letting go. It is more like a realisation or a waking up feeling when thoughts run off/ and then a return/shift to the “state” I have described above.
No one is deciding… it is like waking up…”Oh… lost again” feeling/ and then “returning” / shifting to “state”.
Do you see a difference between " come from there" and "it just happens"? Can you find the location named "there"?
Yes now I do see a clear difference between “come from there” and “it just happens”. My experience is like “it just happens.” I find no location “there”… it is the “state”.
Look for this "except". Who can decide to rest or not, to look or not? Is there anyone who can do this decision to rest or not? How does it happen?
The word “except” is not accurate. There is no “I” deciding to rest or not. Again “it just happens” is the best way to describe it…. Wow.
It felt like someone is “willing” it…. But in actuality, the waking / shifting just happens.

Love and gratitude
AB

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:07 pm

Hi AB
.... shifting from one state/ space to another state/space, just next door, so to speak.
states come and go ... so is there an awakened state and a non-awakened state?
Is it something that can be lost again?
can you find anything beyond that what comes and goes?
tell me more about how you experience it!
It felt like someone is “willing” it…. But in actuality, the waking / shifting just happens.
interesting! :-)
look at this "It felt like someone is “willing” it". What do you find in direct experience?
describe this feeling from direct experience!

Love Ve

User avatar
SynchroNous1
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:23 pm

Dear Ve,
states come and go ... so is there an awakened state and a non-awakened state?
Is it something that can be lost again?
can you find anything beyond that what comes and goes?
tell me more about how you experience it!
There is a state that is the ground of everything… this state never goes away. It is never really lost.
But, when thoughts run off, there is a perception that this “ground state” (using this term for this discussion) has been covered up, or thoughts have run off --away from this ground state.
Now that I reflect on this, it is a “perception” only – that I have run off, away, lost my way. But I guess that cannot happen, as the ”ground state” is everything.
I need help in figuring this “perception" that says "Oh, here I go running off into thoughts, away from “ground state”".
interesting! :-)
look at this "It felt like someone is “willing” it". What do you find in direct experience?
describe this feeling from direct experience!
In direct experience, this feeling I used to have that “someone is willing me back” is a mis-perception. It came from this belief that if there is a shift, “someone” is making it happen and that “someone” is the “spiritual self”? I am not sure who I thought this “someone” was but that “someone” does not exist.
Really there is no “subject” acting to achieve an “object”. In that case… what? What is, is?

Thank you very much.
AB

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:36 pm

Hi AB,
There is a state that is the ground of everything… this state never goes away. It is never really lost.
What can you say about this "state"? Is it changing? Is it the feeling of beeing alive, present, just beeing? anything else you can add or say about?
Now that I reflect on this, it is a “perception” only – that I have run off, away, lost my way. But I guess that cannot happen, as the ”ground state” is everything. I need help in figuring this “perception" that says "Oh, here I go running off into thoughts, away from “ground state”".
For me, it feels a bit that you try to understand, conceptualize what you see. Maybe not everything can be understood? You try to find a logical conclusion .... This perception that you describe, is it realy a perception, an experience or is it thought? What is the direct experience?
Take some time for it and realy look what is the experience and what is thought about!
In direct experience, this feeling I used to have that “someone is willing me back” is a mis-perception.
What is a mis-perception?
There is experience .... and thought that interpretes the experience. So look at this "feeling of someone is willing me back”. What is the pure experience and what is thought?
I am not sure who I thought this “someone” was but that “someone” does not exist.
:-)
Really there is no “subject” acting to achieve an “object”. In that case… what? What is, is?
Is it a question or a statement? ;-)

Love Ve

User avatar
SynchroNous1
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:31 am

What can you say about this "state"? Is it changing? Is it the feeling of beeing alive, present, just beeing? anything else you can add or say about?
This state is not changing. It always feels present, being. It is alive for sure. It feels dynamic but not in some big energetic way – it feels quiet and dynamic, silent and yet full.
For me, it feels a bit that you try to understand, conceptualize what you see. Maybe not everything can be understood? You try to find a logical conclusion .... This perception that you describe, is it realy a perception, an experience or is it thought? What is the direct experience?
Take some time for it and realy look what is the experience and what is thought about!
There is a "perception" that “thoughts” are separate from “ground state”. But they cannot be separate as the “ground state” is what is, all is. “Thoughts” carry “emotions” and become a “narrative”…. All taking place in “ground state”. Maybe I try to understand through logic or steps too much.
What is a mis-perception?
There is experience .... and thought that interpretes the experience. So look at this "feeling of someone is willing me back”. What is the pure experience and what is thought?
The direct experience is of a shift. But because of the belief that there is “someone doing/shifting something” and that someone is “I”, the “I” thought creeps in. In experience there is no “I”.
Is it a question or a statement? ;-)
It is a statement.

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:07 pm

Maybe I try to understand through logic or steps too much.
Yes, for me it sound like a logic conclusion of what you see. Try to put this logic beside and stay with what is ....
But they cannot be separate as the “ground state” is what is, all is.
You see that this is a logical conclusion?
There is a "perception" that “thoughts” are separate from “ground state”.
Take some time and look in direct experience if this is realy true!
Thoughts come and go, what is the direct experienece?
Is there any direct experience of something like a "ground state"?
Try to describe your experience without using conclusions etc!
“Thoughts” carry “emotions” and become a “narrative”….
In direct experience can there be seen that “Thoughts” carry “emotions” ?
what is the experience? and what is thought (explanations etc)?


Love Ve

User avatar
SynchroNous1
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:15 am

You see that this is a logical conclusion?
I am stating it as if it is a logical conclusion. In experience it is more like a realisation.. a realisation of a thought which was making these separations into "ground state", "thoughts running off away from ground state". I feel relieved
Take some time and look in direct experience if this is realy true!
Thoughts come and go, what is the direct experienece?
Is there any direct experience of something like a "ground state"?
Try to describe your experience without using conclusions etc!
In experience, thoughts are present.... then thoughts are not present... etc.
What is different in experience now than before is.... Emotions are not attached to thoughts or if they are, emotions are also thoughts...
I am not feeling "saddened" or "hopeless" that "Oh my God, these thoughts.... they have to be eliminated... to reach some spiritual goal..."
I am feeling that all this is what all is... and that is what all this is... no problem, all is fine.
In direct experience can there be seen that “Thoughts” carry “emotions” ?
what is the experience? and what is thought (explanations etc)?
In experience, thoughts are there and also not there... emotions are more thoughts about thoughts...
I realise this and am aware of it... and that is all there is. I am not getting caught up in worrying about "why do I have thoughts? I have to get rid of them".... or trying to get "past thoughts"....
I feel relieved and relaxed

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:47 pm

Hi Ab,

good to hear that you feel relieved, relaxed and all is fine.
Lets have a look at this, to be sure all is seen ....
In experience it is more like a realisation.. a realisation of a thought which was making these separations into "ground state", "thoughts running off away from ground state".
Ist a a "realisation of a thought" different from a thought? Please explain?

So was it thought that made these seperations or anything else?
... or if they are, emotions are also thoughts...
emotions = thoughts?
canany kind of "emotion are attached to thoughts" be seen in direct experience?
emotions are more thoughts about thoughts.
next time there is an "emotion" please look in direct experience what you find and report (with real life example!)!
Is it thought? sensation? ...?
I am not getting caught up in worrying about "why do I have thoughts? I have to get rid of them".... or trying to get "past thoughts"....
thats good! :-)

Love Ve

User avatar
SynchroNous1
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:26 am

Ist a a "realisation of a thought" different from a thought? Please explain?
So was it thought that made these seperations or anything else?
The separation is a thought.
But there is a witness to the experience .... thoughts... no thoughts... whatever..
But the witness is part of the experience and not separate from it.
Hope I am explaining clearly.
emotions = thoughts?
canany kind of "emotion are attached to thoughts" be seen in direct experience?
A thought without an emotion does not have the same energy as "emotion." A thought can be just noticing or observing a person. But when anger is also present with regard to the person, a different kind of experience takes place. I do not know whether emotion is also a thought or not. There is no attachment of emotion to thought as such -- but an emotion-less thought (just observing the person) is different from emotional thought (angry with the person).
next time there is an "emotion" please look in direct experience what you find and report (with real life example!)!
Is it thought? sensation? ...?
"Emotion" is like a sensation. It is felt in the body -- like anger has bodily sensations.

Dear Ve -- I just want to share that although I am less caught up in "removing thoughts", "getting annoyed with thoughts" etc.... but some times, I feel agitation sensations and thoughts crowding -- for example when I have too much work and travel and I don't want to do it. It is a struggle to witness and let things just be. That is what I do.... but I wanted to share with you that it is difficult at times.... I assume this is how it is... and let it be.

Thank you. Love and gratitude
AB

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:36 am

Hi ab
I am off the grid for some dayes. Back in sunday. Then i will answer .
Love ve

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:38 pm

Hi AB,

so now I am back - sorry for delay .....
But there is a witness to the experience .... thoughts... no thoughts... whatever..
But the witness is part of the experience and not separate from it.
Who or what is witnessing?
Can you find anything more than (the awareness of) the experience itself?

very interesting .... :-) lets have a closer look to this and sort out what is the direct experienece and what is thought:
I do not know whether emotion is also a thought or not.
Look in direct experience next time there is an emotion and tell me what you find!
"Emotion" is like a sensation. It is felt in the body -- like anger has bodily sensations.
yes. is it that?
A thought can be just noticing or observing a person.
How can a thought do that?
Can a thought DO anything?
Look in direct experience for the answer!
But when anger is also present with regard to the person, a different kind of experience takes place. I do not know whether emotion is also a thought or not. There is no attachment of emotion to thought as such -- but an emotion-less thought (just observing the person) is different from emotional thought (angry with the person).
Ok, there is only thought. Or thought+emotion. Or thought+emotion+sensation. ......
emotion-less thought = thought
emotional thought = thought + emotion/sensation
Is it like this? Anything other or different in DE?
Can this " a different kind of experience takes place" be described in this way?
but some times, I feel agitation sensations and thoughts crowding -- for example when I have too much work and travel and I don't want to do it. It is a struggle to witness and let things just be. That is what I do.... but I wanted to share with you that it is difficult at times.... I assume this is how it is... and let it be.
yes, thanks for sharing this. Here again is this witnessing. Who or what is whitnessing? And what is this struggle (in direct expereience)? Is there anyone who can change things, reduce struggle, change thoughts?

Love Ve


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests