Acceptance of the way things appear to be

[Kalina]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
y understanding of this, is that I am not that which I take myself to be. That there is no separate entity, living independently as anything or anyone, and that this illusionary self is made up of a body, mind, conditioning , thoughts and beliefs.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance to point me to seeing and experiencing the truth of what IS. More specifically, I seem to be stuck in a habit of identifying with thoughts and feelings that appear to cause suffering, and cant seem to just BE with these thoughts, feelings and perceptions, and just allowing them to be, without wanting to reject them. I feel there seems to be an "I" that gets lost in the experience, and not just be present with it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
No expectations, but grateful to receive any guidance that will help liberate me from a stuck place of seeing, so that I may stop identifying with that which isnt real. I often get moments of seeing, where I feel I get closer, but its hard sometimes to see when I get pulled into the experience. So it would be beneficial l for help with this .

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was never a seeker as such..it has always felt like truth was revealing itself , or even seeking me, but even reading that I chuckle, as I see there must be seeking, if what I am is seeking is itself...there is no "other" in this, and yet it can seem to hold an air of Mystery. For most of this life, since as far back as I can recall, there has been a very strong seeing and awareness, revealing truth. I had no guidance at all for most of my life, only what I became aware of. It is only in the last few years I came to sit with some teachers. Firstly investigating the psychological self , though Carl Jungs Shadow work, then the Advaita path, but found this only pointed me to the formless but didnt bring it into the experience of form, so then came across teachers that integrate both the inward path ( Advaita ) and outward path ( Tantra )

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Vivien]

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

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- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
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Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien

[Kalina]

Hi Vivien..thank you for offering to be my guide..much appreciated . Here are my answers to your questions...

How will Life change?

I dont feel life itself will change, but the meeting of it will, in as much, as everything will be met without resistance. And that there is peace in that.

How will you change?

I dont feel what I essentially am can change, but the idea of what I take myself to be can, and it is that, that masks what I essentially am, so once seen for what it is, those veils will fall, and what remains, is what I already am

What will be different?

I feel there would be an acceptance of the ways things are, or appear to be, and in that, there wouldnt be inner conflict or rejection, but an openess and relaxation.

What is missing?

What I feel is missing, is only something I am not seeing. I know in the experience of my Being there is nothing missing. The feeling of something missing is only felt by the idea I am a separate being. This is clearly seen, and yet, still playing out.

[Vivien]

Hi Kalina,

Is it OK if I call you Kalina, or would you prefer something else?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?

I dont feel life itself will change, but the meeting of it will, in as much, as everything will be met without resistance.

Resistance is a conditioned reaction based on other conditionings and personal problems. Just because the self has seen through, it doesn’t mean that resistance will stop. It might lessen, but it won’t stop appearing in an instant.

Perception changes and with that some reactions etc. may change. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

For many, there is an expectation that the sense of self will be gone completely, never asserting itself ever again. But this is not the case. Due to a lifetime of conditioning, self-constructs still arise out of habit. It needs time and lots of further looking for it to gradually dissolve.

And that there is peace in that.

Peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

I dont feel what I essentially am can change, but the idea of what I take myself to be can, and it is that, that masks what I essentially am, so once seen for what it is, those veils will fall, and what remains, is what I already am

This above comment assumes that there are 2 selves, one is the separate self, and the other is the real, true Self (with capital S). So when the separate self has seen through, only the true Self remains, what I already am.

But this cannot be further from the truth. There are NO 2 selves there. There is no real Self what could remain after seeing through the separate self. The notion of the true/real Self is just a desire on behalf of the separate self. There is no amount of selves. Not 2 (self + Self), not 1 (Self), but zero (no self at all).

When the self has seen through, there will be nothing left to identify with and say: “this is what I really am”.

I feel there would be an acceptance of the ways things are, or appear to be, and in that, there wouldnt be inner conflict or rejection, but an openess and relaxation

.
Suffering happens when being lost in thoughts happens. It means that the thoughts in that moment are not seen only as arising thoughts (only as ‘containers’ coming and going), but rather their ‘content’, what they are about is taken as reality. And of course, since each thought is about the self, the self is taken as something real. And this, let’s call ‘delusion’ still can happen even after seeing the illusion of the self. But when it’s investigated, it can be seen for what it is. But there is no guaranty that in the next moment the story of a self won’t reassert itself. It’s a habit of the mind. It’s a conditioned pattern of thinking. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.

Also, personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

Firstly investigating the psychological self , though Carl Jungs Shadow work, then the Advaita path, but found this only pointed me to the formless but didnt bring it into the experience of form, so then came across teachers that integrate both the inward path ( Advaita ) and outward path ( Tantra )

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please tell me what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

Vivien

[Kalina]

Hi Vivien...thanks for your response.

Is it OK if I call you Kalina, or would you prefer something else?

Yes, thats OK, thanks

Before starting, please tell me what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

There wasnt any resistance felt to any of it. I was in agreement with it all. What you speak of has been seen in my experience, and I am still doing some of the "unravelling " that you speak of.

I have had a tendancy to get a little idenified with thoughts, but have really been looking at this recently, but then found that I was tending to try and cut off the thoughts, which is a conflict that plays out , the believed separate self , rejecting itself as being "imperfect" . But I have also seen that this is a behaviour to compensate not feeling something from a trauma. So theres a bit of "unravelling" with that.

I did see your point about peace being a state, and the expectation in that. I hadnt seen that before. I think when I wrote it, I meant it as in being OK with whatever experience I was in. I have found in my experince that once I just allow whatever feeling, sensation, or thought to just "be", then any apparent suffering seems to stop and a feeling of peace or being " OK " with everything seems to be there, as if it always is there before what arises in it. But even as I write this, I see that maybe there is still an expectation in that...that there is something to be achieved...funny !

[quoteFor the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?][/quote]

Absoloutely. It is my way to just look and discover in my own experience anyway. On occasion I have sat with teachers, but havent read a book in years, nor watch videos often, and so will make sure I dont. So I am happy to just be with your guidance for now. Thank you

[Vivien]

Hi Kalina,

Your quoting didn’t work well. Next time before posting, you can preview your post by pressing the ‘Preview’ button next to the ‘Submit’ button, so you can make changes if you need to.

I have found in my experince that once I just allow whatever feeling, sensation, or thought to just "be", then any apparent suffering seems to stop and a feeling of peace or being " OK " with everything seems to be there, as if it always is there before what arises in it. But even as I write this, I see that maybe there is still an expectation in that...that there is something to be achieved...funny !

Yes, this is still a subtle form of expectation. Just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that you will be able to say with everything without any resistance.

Let’s start it. As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and thought interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience.
Here's an exercise that will help you to see what we mean exactly by direct experience. I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= visual sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me know how you go. Please write a list as above for one period of doing this exercise.

Vivien

[Kalina]

Hi Vivien...

Your quoting didn’t work well. Next time before posting, you can preview your post by pressing the ‘Preview’ button next to the ‘Submit’ button, so you can make changes if you need to.

Yes, thanks. I realised after it had posted and not worked, that I would need to preview it before posting, and will do from now on :-)

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me know how you go. Please write a list as above for one period of doing this exercise

I did the "looking" you guided me to, and heres what I found whilst drinking a fruit tea...

Seeing a cup, simply= visual sight - I see shape and colour as a contrast against background objects . It appears to have dimensions, as light and shadow . The cup itself is still, but from within it movement appears as steam.

Smelling coffee, simply = smell - the smell is subtle yet fragrant. It evokes an association to Christmas

Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation - cup feels dense, solid, heavy. An intense sensation. There is heat on certain parts of the cup that creates resistance to touch . It feels like something separate to "me"
I closed my eyes to look again, and then it didnt seem to be separate from myself, but still a very intense unchanging sensation in that area. I moved my attention to other parts of my body that were making contact with other objects, just to check to see if me believing the cup was a more intense sensation than any other I could feel was true, and discovered that it wasnt more intense after all. ( apologies if I went beyond what I was asked there, it was just intuitive in the moment )

Tasting the coffee, simply = taste - The taste was a subtle change to what was there before the tea. Thats all I could find with the taste.

Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound - I didnt use a spoon, so looked at the sound of drinking. At first it seemed that the sounds were louder/closer than other background sounds. But then again, I looked at the truth of this, and moved my attention to sounds other than the cup, then back to the cup, and then there only seemed to be the hearing of sounds, rather than the cup having sounds.

Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought - Thoughts seem to narrate the experience. Thoughts such as " this tea doesnt taste of much "...or " the cup feels really heavy " I look more closely at the thoughts and then see that its only when the thoughts identify with a " me" and separate objects, that I get pulled into believing the thoughts.

[Vivien]

Hi Kalina,

Seeing a cup, simply= visual sight - I see shape and colour as a contrast against background objects . It appears to have dimensions, as light and shadow . The cup itself is still, but from within it movement appears as steam.

I see shape and colour as a contrast against background objects = image/color
It appears to have dimensions, as light and shadow = image/color
The cup itself is still = image/color
from within it movement appears as steam = image/color

Smelling coffee, simply = smell - the smell is subtle yet fragrant. It evokes an association to Christmas

the smell is subtle yet fragrant = this is a thought interpretation over the AE of smell
It evokes an association to Christmas = thought

Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation - cup feels dense, solid, heavy. An intense sensation. There is heat on certain parts of the cup that creates resistance to touch . It feels like something separate to "me"

cup feels dense, solid, heavy = sensation
There is heat on certain parts of the cup = sensation
resistance to touch = sensation
heat on certain parts of the cup that creates resistance to touch = this is a thought interpretation about the AE of sensation
It feels like something separate to "me" = thought

I closed my eyes to look again, and then it didnt seem to be separate from myself, but still a very intense unchanging sensation in that area.

This is a thought interpretation.

Tasting the coffee, simply = taste - The taste was a subtle change to what was there before the tea. Thats all I could find with the taste.

The taste was a subtle change to what was there before the tea = thought

Thoughts seem to narrate the experience. Thoughts such as " this tea doesnt taste of much "...or " the cup feels really heavy "

Yes, thoughts almost constantly narrate the experience.

Are my comments above clear?

I gave you this exercise to help you to differentiate between what is actually happening and what THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT what is happening.

Now we start investigating thoughts.
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 5-10 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.


Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes.

Vivien

[Kalina]

Hi Vivien...

Are my comments above clear?

I read your comments, and it was interesting to see where the thoughts were overlaying the AE. I had worked out at the time that some of them were thoughts, but hadnt spotted all of them.

I struggled a bit with the taste one, because I felt I couldnt describe the AE. It really was just a noticing of something subtle, and so maybe I had to use a thought to describe it. Anyway, it was definitely interesting to both do it and see your feedback, thanks.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes.

At the start of the day, this went fine, but then I started to get very "mindy"...my mind was trying to do the looking, and then I was getting more thoughts, narrating, reporting etc, and then the thoughts of how it was making me feel mad having a constant barrage of thoughts, and at times, I would realise my attention had got totally pulled into the thoughts rather than just noticing the thoughts.

I saw that a lot of thoughts started with "I" or "my" . Or referencing to the past or future.
I caught myself at one point, having the thought " who the hell is that anyway ? " ( about the apparent one having the thought ) ...and then there was a realisation that it was the same one that had just asked that question and nobody separate.

The gaps between the thoughts I noticed were where I felt the looking was talking place from. At times there was just the witnessing of thoughts coming and going, but then as the mind tried to get very involved, the gaps became less.

[Vivien]

Hi Kalina,

I saw that a lot of thoughts started with "I" or "my" . Or referencing to the past or future.
I caught myself at one point, having the thought " who the hell is that anyway ? " ( about the apparent one having the thought ) ...and then there was a realisation that it was the same one that had just asked that question and nobody separate.
Nice looking.

The gaps between the thoughts I noticed were where I felt the looking was talking place from.

Exactly.

Looking for gaps between thoughts were a preparation exercise to help you how to observe the coming and going of thoughts and also how to look for the self later.

I gave you this exercise to help you to differentiate between what is actually happening and what THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT what is happening.

The whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts. So therefore, we will investigate thoughts and thought labels thoroughly.
So then let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes or longer and look similarly as you looked for the gaps between thoughts. Look for the ‘answer’ BEFORE thought interpretation kicks in.

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer and quote ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Please, DON’T THINK about the answers, rather LOOK at what is before thoughts. Take your time.

Vivien

[Kalina]

HI Vivien...

Thanks for the questions...here are my findings...

Where do thoughts come from?

There doesnt seem to be an actual place where they come from

Where are they going?

They seem to just disappear

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

that seems to be possible

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

it seems impossible

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

this also seemed to be impossible

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No, there just seems to be thoughts appearing

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

in my experience there seems to be a persona having the "I" thoughts, that seems different than the seeing of it, but I see that may be a thought laid over what is seen

What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’

I see that there is a belief in an "I" that is the thinker

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

there was quite a strong seeing in this. It was seen that thoughts were coming directly after experience. AE seemed silent, and then the thoughts arose from that. So then there was an experiencing of thoughts, and thinking

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

after what was seen from the last question, definitely yes

Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?

in my experience it isnt seen there is a thinker of thoughts, just being thought

[Vivien]

Hi Kalina,

V: Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

K: that seems to be possible

A thought appears saying “I am going to stop the next thought in the middle.”
But what is it exactly that is stopping the next thought in the middle?
When there is a thought, how is it known that it’s just a half thought, an unfinished thought?

What is the actual experience of stopping the next thought in the middle?
Where exactly is the middle of a thought?
Where does one thought end and another begin?

V: “I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

K: in my experience there seems to be a persona having the "I" thoughts, that seems different than the seeing of it, but I see that may be a thought laid over what is seen

“In my experience there seems to be a persona having the ‘I’ thoughts” – if you say that there is an actual experience of a persona having the I-thought, then you must know how this persona look like, feel like, you must know its location, size, shape, exact boundaries, etc.

So please describe me this persona in detail who is having I-thoughts as precisely as you can.
Where is its exact location? What size is it? What shape it has? How does it look like?

And after you have found this persona, please tell me how do you know EXACTLY that this persona is having the I-thoughts?

V: What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’

K: I see that there is a belief in an "I" that is the thinker

OK, there is a belief in the thinker, but where is the thinker itself? – localize it

Vivien

[Kalina]

Hi Vivien...thanks for the responses..

A thought appears saying “I am going to stop the next thought in the middle.”
But what is it exactly that is stopping the next thought in the middle?

In my experience, there wasnt a thought about stopping thought beforehand, but a seeing that caught it, closely followed by a thought about stopping it

When there is a thought, how is it known that it’s just a half thought, an unfinished thought?

another thought

What is the actual experience of stopping the next thought in the middle?

Now I have closely looked again, it doesnt seem like the thoughts are actually being stopped. There is only the thought they are, but it is seen that the thought carries on, but the thought about it being stopped seems more prominent, therefore gains more attention

Where exactly is the middle of a thought?

it seems impossible to find

Where does one thought end and another begin?

there doesnt seem to be a defining edge to them. There are spaces where there are no thoughts, but the beginning of a thought cannot be found, nor an end. They just seem to be there, appearing and disappearing in the space, but not different to it somehow, as in anything that can be found to define them.

“In my experience there seems to be a persona having the ‘I’ thoughts” – if you say that there is an actual experience of a persona having the I-thought, then you must know how this persona look like, feel like, you must know its location, size, shape, exact boundaries, etc.

So please describe me this persona in detail who is having I-thoughts as precisely as you can.

It actually just seems to be a thought , that this person ( body ) is having and generating the thoughts

Where is its exact location? What size is it? What shape it has? How does it look like?

Now I've looked again, I can see that these are just thoughts, and I cannot say that the thoughts are coming from this body

And after you have found this persona, please tell me how do you know EXACTLY that this persona is having the I-thoughts?

I cannot see for definite the body/persona is having these thoughts. There are just thoughts

OK, there is a belief in the thinker, but where is the thinker itself? – localize it

I see now that they are just thoughts, but there no location where these thoughst can be found

[Vivien]

Hi Kalina,

They [thoughts] just seem to be there, appearing and disappearing in the space,

How is it known exactly that thoughts are appearing in space?
What is the AE of space? Is it a sound, image/color, taste, smell, sensation or thought?

I cannot see for definite the body/persona is having these thoughts. There are just thoughts

Exactly. Thoughts are not coming from or done by the body. Can you see this clearly?

Do you say that persona = body?
So Kalina = body?
Or Kalina has / owns the body?

What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence.

Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

What does generate thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Is “I” a place where thoughts appear, or is “I” a thought that arises and subsides by itself?

Vivien

[Kalina]

Hi Vivien...

How is it known exactly that thoughts are appearing in space?

The thoughts appear in the same space that sees them. There isnt something that sees an appearance in a space other than itself.

What is the AE of space? Is it a sound, image/color, taste, smell, sensation or thought?

The experience of space seems to be a stillness. It itself has no sound, image , taste, smell or sensation, or thought. Yet those appear as an experience of movement within it.

Thoughts are not coming from or done by the body. Can you see this clearly?

Yes, definitely not the body, though there are thoughts that seem to identify with that

Do you say that persona = body?
So Kalina = body?
Or Kalina has / owns the body?

I see that persona isnt the body, but there are thoughts that seem to believe that, or are a habit of that belief
Kalina is not the body. Thoughts just seem to suggest an idenification to that
Kalina doesnt own the body, because that could only be a thought too

What can a thought do?

A thought seems to just happen, but cannot do anything. It just is a thought

Does a thought have volition?

They dont seem to have any volition. That would only be another thought

Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?

I cannot see that a thought can do anything. Thoughts dont seem to have any individual quality or abilities . There just seems to be thoughts, or thoughts about thoughts. Or I try to manipulate a thought with a thought. That in itself is only a thought

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence.
Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Its funny, because last night I was looking at thoughts and it seemed that there was a pattern, that one thought was finding a connection to another thought, and continuing to another thought. But after you asked this question, and I looked at that. I see that that itself was just a thought !

What does generate thoughts?

They seem to appear in that which sees them, so it feels like it is the same thing in a way, like it must come from here

What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

it doesnt seem like they can belong to or be owned by anyone or thing, because they dont seem to be separate to anything

Is “I” a place where thoughts appear, or is “I” a thought that arises and subsides by itself?

The "I" thought seems to arise and subside by itself.