Lifting the fog

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Seeker01
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Lifting the fog

Postby Seeker01 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:04 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That we are all part of one source. That the perception we have a separate self is an illusion that is the result of a conditioned, physical body that is able to store ideas, thoughts and feelings. This means we identify only through our physical form and it’s interaction with the world and are not able to see that this is just a trick of the min

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for support in taking what I know rationally and logically to be true and being able to live spontaneously from this knowledge. It is as if I know it on one level, but I am trapped in the old thought patterns and reaction from a subconscious perspective. Like part of me is trailing behind this knowledge.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am not sure what to expect. I am hoping that someone who has experienced what I am going through will be able to shine a light on the way to this truth and help me avoid some of the pitfalls I might be falling into.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am a meditator in the Buddhist tradition for 5 years on and off. I have recently started slipping into insight meditation which has had a profound impact on my world view and started to lead to shifts in perception of who I am and my place in the world. Through meditation experiences I have seen and felt there is no self, but it is hard to keep this realisation in any meaningful sense when off the cushion. I have a strong, innate desire to follow this through to its natural conclusion. I somehow know it will make me a better, more loving part of the universe.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Ilona
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:41 pm

Hi Seeker, I’m a guide, apparently.
Nice to meet you.
Thank you for intro. I hear you and I will ask you some questions that you can use to look for yourself, what is what.
Let’s start from this one question:
What is it that you are looking for? Precisely.

Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Seeker01
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Seeker01 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:46 pm

Hello,
Thank you for being my guide.
It is nice to meet you too.
I am looking for freedom from my thoughts. Not to cease thinking, but to see instinctively that they are illusory constructs created by a physical form and therefore have freedom from them.
Apart from when I am in deep meditation, I feel I am a slave to my thoughts - they govern how I act, my emotions and what I say. I find this frustrating when deep down I know that they are not reliable.

Is that specific enough? I am finding it hard to put my feelings into words.
Love Sarah

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Ilona
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Ilona » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:42 am

Yes, Thats specific enough. Thank you for honesty.
But, thoughts are not a problem. Thinking continues without naming it unwanted. And that’s what peace is- meeting all as it is.

So let’s look at thinking process and how it works in actuality. In your experience.

We think in words and images, some words and images come with emotional charge- strong energy.

Look around the room slowly and notice that where attention goes, labelling objects, stories about them comes up. Just spend a few minutes playing with that.

What do you notice? Are you doing the naming or it’s something happening automatically?

Is there a thinker?


Take your time and play with this, then write what feels honest and true.

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Seeker01
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Seeker01 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:59 pm

Hello again.

Looking around the room, there seems to be no logic to where my attention falls. It is spontaneous. Where my attention falls one of two things happen:
1. A name for the object springs to mind after a short delay
2. More frequently, no naming/ labelling, but an associated image or thought arises

Sometimes the thought or associated image creates a story around the object and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes there is no clear link between the object and the thought; it appears random.

The labelling/ naming and thought or image happen after a few seconds of attention on the object, but once this has happened, other thoughts follow rapidly.

All of this seems automatic. I can’t find a process or a thinker. It just is and seems to happens instantaneously.

Love Sarah

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Ilona
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Ilona » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:42 pm

Yes, it’s automatic. Thoughts show up and tell a story.
And what is here underneath thinking?
Is there Sarah without a story about Sarah?
What drives the story about Sarah?
Is Sarah here right now?

How do you see this?


Love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Seeker01
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Seeker01 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:55 pm

Hello x
I have done my best to be honest and straightforward, but it hard not to be abstract in my responses ;)
And what is here underneath thinking?
Nothing tangible I can point to, but I know the brain is stored with mental images, concepts and ideas that create the thoughts. I have no direct experience of this except I can see the thoughts are linked to past experiences.

There is also awareness. When thoughts stop, in particular during meditation, there is an awareness that doesn’t rely on thoughts or words. Awareness is different to thoughts.
Is there a Sarah without a story about Sarah?
There is awareness of a physical form and of sensations that could be named Sarah, but without the story there is nothing to define me as the Sarah I identify with.
What drives the story about Sarah?
Thoughts. The emotions that thoughts bring up. Likes, dislikes, preferences, aversions. Something happens, or I hear something/ see something that triggers a thought - this thought arises from past experiences. I cling to a perception of myself and this reinforces the story.
Is Sarah here right now?
Something is here. Sarah as a physical form.
Emotions and thoughts generated by the physical form.
How do you see this?
Awareness. I see the physical form and something is aware of the thoughts.

Love Sarah

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Ilona
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Ilona » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:33 pm

Nothing tangible I can point to, but I know the brain is stored with mental images, concepts and ideas that create the thoughts. I have no direct experience of this except I can see the thoughts are linked to past experiences.
Interesting. Thoughts are linked to past experiences. or perhaps thoughts come up about the past experiences?
Is there a container of thoughts?
Are thoughts coming in bunches or one thought after another one at a time?

Yes, there are thoughts about past that we call memories. There are thoughts about future. Are thoughts about future and thoughts about past coming from the same place?
Experiment with this.
See if you can find out where thoughts are really coming from.

Write what you notice.


Also interesting that Sarah is here as a physical form. When you touch Sarah, where does the finger land?

Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Seeker01
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Seeker01 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:18 pm

Good evening.
perhaps thoughts come up about the past experiences?
Yes, I see thoughts come up about past experiences. That is a clearer way of describing it.
Is there a container of thoughts?
No, there is no place where thoughts are contained. They are not things stored anywhere from what I can see. They materialise and then sort of fade to nothing afterwards.
Are thoughts coming in bunches or one thought after another one at a time?
This is hard to pinpoint. From direct experience I see them as one after another. Sometimes one generates the next. Sometimes a seemingly random thought pops in. They don’t seem to come in bunches.
Are thoughts about future and thoughts about past coming from the same place?
See if you can find out where thoughts are really coming from.
I can’t find where thoughts are coming from. I have tried hard to pinpoint this but it seems an impossible task. From my actual experience the first time I notice them they seem to be immediately in front of me- both past and future thoughts. If I am honest, that could just be imagining it because I am used to seeing with eyes and so I think of the thoughts being there.

Past and future thoughts seem to be the same things in some ways. Future thoughts are linked to memories- they seem to be fused together. All future thoughts rely on images of past memories. Ha ha - I don’t even know if that makes sense.
When you touch Sarah, where does the finger land?
When trying to locate a Sarah it is tricky. Initially I want to point to the whole body, but I see that if I point to one part of the body, for example the leg, that can’t be defined as Sarah as without the leg, I would still be Sarah. So I point to the brain, but I don’t see where Sarah would be there. I know conceptually the brain generates thoughts and images, and all of these include Sarah memories that make me identify the brain as Sarah’s brain, but that is not direct experience. Direct experience says, there is no Sarah to be found, however, if I am honest, my mind can not let go of the fact there is a physical form and that has memories so it is somehow Sarah.

What a long reply.
Thank you for your patience.
Love Sarah

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Ilona
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Ilona » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:03 pm

Thank you for answering fully. It’s good to notice, that thoughts just show up.
Can you look and tell me, is there a thinker? Is thought I a thinker or a thought?

As for the physical, can you tell me, what in your experience is physical? How do you experience the physicality?
Simply look around and notice, there are colours, sounds, sensations, sensations we call body. Is body what is experiencing or it is experienced? As sensations, energy, feeling.
Describe what you notice.
Are you inside or outside the body? Or body is inside you? How does that work?

Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Seeker01
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Seeker01 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:33 pm

Hi Ilona,
I have applied myself to your questions all day, but feel I need longer, so will mail you this time tomorrow with my final response.
I am trying not to over think them, but I find direct experience is so easily mixed up with concepts and logic that I need to work hard to separate them.
I hope that’s okay :)
Thank you x

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Ilona
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Ilona » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:03 pm

Sure, write when you are ready.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Seeker01
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Seeker01 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:30 pm

Hello :)
I have tried to be honest and avoid preconceptions.

i
is there a thinker? Is thought I a thinker or a thought?
No, I can’t find a thinker. I is a thought not a thinker. As soon as the word I appears it has become a thought. Prior to thought, I do not identify with an I.
As for the physical, can you tell me, what in your experience is physical? How do you experience the physicality?
In my experience the physical is either colours, shapes, sounds, things that are witnessed from outside the body, or sensations- touch which are things that are felt through direct contact with the body. However, I am struggling to ascertain exactly what feeling of touch is when I experience it.

Is body what is experiencing or it is experienced? As sensations, energy, feeling.
Describe what you notice.
Body is experienced not experiencing, though I am not sure what is experiencing it. When body comes into contact with something, sensations, feelings and energy arise, but the sensation is experienced somewhere different to the body. Like thoughts, it appears, but I can’t see where.
Are you inside or outside the body? Or body is inside you? How does that work?
I can’t find me inside the body, I can’t find me outside the body, though that feels closer to my experience. I can identify more with body inside me as awareness experiences all parts of the body and outside the body. However, if I am honest, I can’t find me anywhere.

The task above is frustrating as I can’t help feeling there is something I should be recognising, but am unable to do so.

Thank you
Love Sarah

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Ilona
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Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Ilona » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:05 pm

Gahn you for reply.
Yes, there is something to discover, and that’s is there is no self, as a separate being, and never was. No manager in charge, no owner, no witness, no organiser of experience. No one there, as in zero. There is life flowing freely as all forms, sensations, colours, sounds, feelings, thoughts, as one movement.
What happens, when you let this thought in?

Write what shows us.

Love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Seeker01
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Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:02 am

Re: Lifting the fog

Postby Seeker01 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:01 pm

Hi,
I will send a response tomorrow evening if that’s okay as I want to give some more thought to a couple of your comments.
Thanks for your patience x


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