Fear decreasing

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:05 pm

Hi Vivien,
Look, is the me-character the creator or the created?
The me character is not the creator because I did not create this body, nor do i create thoughts, and if I were the creator i would have the perfect life---and i don't. It is clear that the me character can make things happen, nor prevent things from happening. And, when looking, sometimes, i can't even find the me character. And, other times I feel identified with the thoughts so it's like those thoughts are me and when that happens, I'm still not the creator because I'm not making any of those thoughts happen, they arise and disappear seemingly, randomly.
Is there a narrator of the story of me?
I can not find one. Just thoughts saying, "I" "me" "my"
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?
The me character does not create what happens in the story. There are just thoughts about the me character, and other things, one after the other.
Is the me character thinking?
Sometimes I can't find the me character. And, when I can seem to find the me character it seems to always be attached to some other thought, like it can't exist alone, or come alive on it's own.
Or are thoughts coming up by themselves?
Thoughts come up on their own.
Can a thought think?
Thoughts can not think. Maybe that's why the I thought, or the me character doesn't appear until another thought comes along, i don't know.

I have surgery Wednesday, so tomorrow will be busy doing more things around the house that I won't be able to do for over a week. If you could still send some questions, then give me a few days to respond---i will be on pain meds for a few days, or more so not sure how good looking will go under the influence of pain meds.

Thanks, Vivien.

Nameless

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:48 am

Hi Nameless,

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?
And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?
I have surgery Wednesday, so tomorrow will be busy doing more things around the house that I won't be able to do for over a week. If you could still send some questions, then give me a few days to respond---i will be on pain meds for a few days, or more so not sure how good looking will go under the influence of pain meds.
I hope you will recover quickly.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:46 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for the wishes for a quick recovery. I appear to be recovering well.
What is the difference between a happening and a doing?
There is no difference between a happening and a doing.
What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?
And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?
Sensations and feelings are things that happen, Nameless does not make them happen, nor does Nameless do them, they just happen.
Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?
Everything just happens effortlessly. Nothing, none of what happens or is experienced needs Nameless to happen. All of what is experienced by the senses is spontaneously arising, Nameless does not make any of it happen.
Is the me-character doing anything in life?
No. I wish I could stay in 'witness mode' more often so that seeing that would happen more often.
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?
Nameless does not appear to be an entity or have any autonomy when looking is happening. Nameless appears to be a thought when looking is happening.

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:45 am

Hi Nameless,
Thank you for the wishes for a quick recovery. I appear to be recovering well.
I’ve been thinking about you in the last few days. I’m glad to hear that you are recovering well :)
Everything just happens effortlessly. Nothing, none of what happens or is experienced needs Nameless to happen. All of what is experienced by the senses is spontaneously arising, Nameless does not make any of it happen.
How much of this that you clearly see, and how much of it is just an intellectual understanding? 50/50? Less? More?
I wish I could stay in 'witness mode' more often so that seeing that would happen more often.
What is it exactly that has the ability to stay in the witness mode?
Is there someone or something moving back and forth between a ‘witness mode’ and the everyday state?
Find the one that is making the move between the two.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:24 am

How much of this that you clearly see, and how much of it is just an intellectual understanding? 50/50? Less? More?
It is seen clearly when looking is happening, but it's also seen that looking happens when looking happens; Nameless can not make looking happen. So, how often does looking happen? It's different on a daily basis. I will say that since I didn't sit in formal meditation for several days b/c of pain meds, the amount of time looking increased when not in formal meditation, so hopefully that will continue. I would have to say that looking happens much less than 50% on any given day. :(
What is it exactly that has the ability to stay in the witness mode?
I can't find anything that has the ability to stay in the witness mode. It appears that witnessing is either happening or it's not happening.
Is there someone or something moving back and forth between a ‘witness mode’ and the everyday state?
I cannot find anything or anyone that moves back and forth between a witness mode and the everyday state.
Find the one that is making the move between the two.
I can not find anyone that moves between the two states.It seems that witnessing is happening or it isn't. There does seem to be a qualitative difference between the witness mode and the everyday state though. Like the in the witness mode awareness is more aware of itself....not totally absorbed by the contents of what it's witnessing.

This was a really difficult assignment for me.

Nameless

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:34 am

Hi Nameless,
I will say that since I didn't sit in formal meditation for several days b/c of pain meds, the amount of time looking increased when not in formal meditation, so hopefully that will continue.
That’s good. It’s important not to make a division between meditation and everyday life. There shouldn’t be any difference between the two. Of course, there seems to be a difference, but ultimately that difference is artificial.

Please sit for some time and just notice how everything is just happening effortlessly.

Look around.
What is being done for colors and shapes to be? Is there anything be done for colors and shapes to be, or they are just there effortlessly?

Listen to the sounds.
What is being done exactly for the sounds to be?
And when the attention is on a sound, what is being done to know the sound? Is there any doing? Or it’s just known effortlessly?


Now shift the focus on FEELING the body.
What is being done exactly for the body to be?
Is there any effort in being?
Or the body just IS, effortlessly?


Focus on the sensations of the hands.
What is being done for the sensations to be?
Aren’t the sensations happens effortlessly?


Look at the hands.
What is being done exactly for the image of the hand to be, to exist?
Is there a you making the image of the hands happen?
Is there any effort in seeing?


Now notice thoughts.
What is being done for thoughts to be?
Is there any effort for thoughts to appear? Or they just appear effortlessly?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:43 pm

What is being done for colors and shapes to be? Is there anything be done for colors and shapes to be, or they are just there effortlessly?
When looking at this question, it seems clear that colors just are in nature...although sometimes thought comes in and says, 'colors are made with dye and people have to DO things to create color--like the color of my sofa...can't get past this one.
What is being done exactly for the sounds to be?
And when the attention is on a sound, what is being done to know the sound? Is there any doing? Or it’s just known effortlessly?
So, again with this one, when listening to sounds, like a lawn mower, thought says someone has to turn the mower on otherwise there will be no sound. And with birds, thought says birds must make effort, but then i recall when i speak, there is no effort--it just happens, i never know what words will come out of my mouth. It seems clear that nothing has to be done to know sounds are there, it is just heard effortlessly.
What is being done exactly for the body to be?
Is there any effort in being?
Or the body just IS, effortlessly?
Nothing is being done for the body to be here, no effort, it is just here.
What is being done for the sensations to be? Aren’t the sensations happens effortlessly?
Nothing is being done for sensations in the hand to be there, they appear to be there effortlessly, nothing is doing anything for them to be there.
What is being done exactly for the image of the hand to be, to exist?
Is there a you making the image of the hands happen?
Is there any effort in seeing?
Nothing is being done for the hands to be here, to exist. Nameless does not make the image of hands to be here. And, there is no effort in seeing the hands, or anything; seeing is just happening.
What is being done for thoughts to be?
Thoughts happen effortlessly, no effort is needed for thoughts to appear or disappear.
Is there any effort for thoughts to appear? Or they just appear effortlessly?
Thoughts appear and disappear effortlessly.
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Well, when you put it that way and at the end here....Nothing that this body does needs Nameless's effort, so it must be true for all other beings and things. So, the man who started the lawn mower and presses the gas peddle...well, he didn't do that, it happens effortlessly. Same for the birds who sing their lovely songs and all else. What feels like effort sometimes is the 'effort' to look...but right now something is felt in the chest...that tension is there effortlessly...maybe because i have convinced myself that tension in the chest means effort--thought is just believed here; most thoughts are false. When looking, most times it appears clear that there is no effort being put forth to do, see, hear, feel, taste, look. But even seeing that, Nameless is still identified with this body/mind. Slow process i guess. Thought arose: i feel depressed. Took some minutes to look and see if the one witnessing the thought and Nameless being depressed, when identified with the 'witness' there isn't any Nameless there, just colors and shapes---lasted seconds at a time. I notice a fear of letting go of the idea Nameless doesn't exist, fear that i will stop trying to plan some security for Nameless's future.

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:34 am

Hi Nameless,
I notice a fear of letting go of the idea Nameless doesn't exist, fear that i will stop trying to plan some security for Nameless's future.
Thank you for sharing this. Fear is important, since it can prevent going further.

Do you think that there is another you outside of the thought story of Nameless, and this outside you (the witness) experiences fear of letting go the idea?

Do you think that you have two selves, Nameless and another one (the witness) who has been planning security for Nameless’ future all along?

What if there are no two selves? Nameless and a witness?
What if there is only one seeming self, and this fear of letting go is part of the story of Nameless?

The thing is that you assume that you have two selves. Nameless + another one who is watching or witnessing the story of Nameless, and this witness now is in fear of letting go, since this witness believes that she is the one making plans for Nameless’ security.

But there are no two of you.
This witness is the same as Nameless.
These are no two selves.
These are the SAME self, both of them are fictional.
There is only one fictional self, who is sometimes masquerading as Nameless, and other times as a witness.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:48 am

Hi Vivien,
Do you think that there is another you outside of the thought story of Nameless, and this outside you (the witness) experiences fear of letting go the idea?
Looking now, this witness does not appear to have any thoughts of it's own, it can only witness what is in this present moment...thoughts, sensations, sounds. So how does this story of 'me' get started or keep itself going--this is another thought that just arose. Well, now something has to notice the witness noticing the story...does this come after it is seen...just another piece or part of the story? It appears so at this moment. Sometimes it is Nameless that believes she is thinking all of these these thoughts or even witnessing these thoughts.
Do you think that you have two selves, Nameless and another one (the witness) who has been planning security for Nameless’ future all along?
I'm tempted to go on memory of just a few moments ago, but i won't :). It seems like it's the witness that 'goes offline' and/or is not noticed most of the time; and it's Nameless who is the 'real' one front and center most of the time--that's the one who TRIES to run the show, and fails miserably. But when looking happens, it's seen clearly that Nameless doesn't do anything....the body moves and does things effortlessly, without any effort. At this point, I do not believe I have two selves; it's like i believe i'm Nameless when i'm not looking, and when looking happens, it's seen that Nameless doesn't exist except as an idea, but it seems like the witness does exist when looking is happening. And, i do not see that the witness is trying to keep Nameless safe; it just witnesses, no thoughts, no emotions, it just observes and feels sensations. But i can not show you this witness, it doesn't seem to have any attributes.
What if there are no two selves? Nameless and a witness? What if there is only one seeming self, and this fear of letting go is part of the story of Nameless?
Something sees that this fear of letting go is part of the story of Nameless; it seems like Nameless sees it also---when Nameless is thinks she is real.
The thing is that you assume that you have two selves. Nameless + another one who is watching or witnessing the story of Nameless, and this witness now is in fear of letting go, since this witness believes that she is the one making plans for Nameless’ security.
It seems like I believe that the witness is God/my Higher Self and this God-Self doesn't care about Nameless, and that It isn't even paying attention most of the time; kind of like the One Thing/Source has no interest in controlling what's happening here on Earth. lol Like it just checks in on us from time to time, just to see what's happening, but not because It wants to change anything that's happening; it has absolutely no desire to change or fix anything at all.
But there are no two of you
.This witness is the same as Nameless.[/quote] That makes sense b/c 'I' identify with each one of them---identified with Nameless when the witness doesn't seem to be around and identified with the witness when the witness is 'present.'
These are no two selves.These are the SAME self, both of them are fictional.There is only one fictional self, who is sometimes masquerading as Nameless, and other times as a witness.
So then the question then becomes, to me: What notices the one fictional self? ...there is just effortless witnessing, no personal 'I' doing the witnessing. But then what is or why is identifying happening so often?

Thank you for reading this, and I'll thank you in advance for responding, thank you.

Nameless

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:00 am

Hi Nameless,

The thing is that you rely way too much on thoughts. You are looking for answers in thoughts, while all the answer is in front of you in this here-and-now experience.
Sometimes it is Nameless that believes she is thinking all of these these thoughts or even witnessing these thoughts.
Are you sure that Nameless is the believer?
Can a non-existent thing believe that she is thinking?
LOOK. What is thinking thoughts?
it's like i believe i'm Nameless when i'm not looking, and when looking happens, it's seen that Nameless doesn't exist except as an idea,
“I believe I’m Nameless” – so where is this I that believes that it’s nameless?
Where is the believer?
Something sees that this fear of letting go is part of the story of Nameless; it seems like Nameless sees it also---when Nameless is thinks she is real
How could a fictional, non-existent thing think that it’s real?
It seems like I believe that the witness is God/my Higher Self and this God-Self doesn't care about Nameless, and that It isn't even paying attention most of the time; kind of like the One Thing/Source has no interest in controlling what's happening here on Earth. lol Like it just checks in on us from time to time, just to see what's happening, but not because It wants to change anything that's happening; it has absolutely no desire to change or fix anything at all.
Do you see that what you wrote above is just a story? Just a speculation about a supposed god or higher self?
So then the question then becomes, to me: What notices the one fictional self? ...there is just effortless witnessing, no personal 'I' doing the witnessing. But then what is or why is identifying happening so often?
The problem is that you are thinking about this topic.
You will never ever be able to see thought the self is you rely on thoughts.
Thinking is the opposite of looking.
All answers are here now.
Not in thoughts.

Please describe to me the here-and-now experience as it is.

Also, please ponder on this.

Are you afraid of discovering that what you’ve believed yourself to be in your whole life, Nameless, is just a fictional character and not a reality?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:03 am

Hi Vivien, It is 7:00 pm here and I hadn't received an email from "admin" yet, so I checked on the forum to see if my last response went through, and that is when I saw your reply. It's the first time I didn't receive an email saying that you had responded to my response. So, I will begin looking tonight; might take me a few days to look a bit harder...or with relaxed effort--however it happens. Just wanted to let you know.

Thank you for your response,

Nameless

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:12 am

All right.

Yes, sometimes there are some issues with the forum, and the notification not always get through. If you don't hear from in 24 hours, please check the forum directly.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:54 pm

Are you sure that Nameless is the believer?
I can not find Nameless right now, there are thoughts appearing and there are sensations felt, but neither of these are Nameless.
Can a non-existent thing believe that she is thinking?
No, a non existent thing can not believe or do anything.
LOOK. What is thinking thoughts?
I can not find anything or anyone that is thinking thoughts. They just appear and i don't know where they come from.
“I believe I’m Nameless” – so where is this I that believes that it’s nameless? Where is the believer?
lol, there are so many thoughts saying, "i'm right here, i'm the one who believes it, the one that notices these thoughts is the one that believes these thoughts;" however, i can not isolate the 'one' that notices the thoughts from the thoughts themselves. So, noticing is happening, but i can't locate or isolate a noticer. Thought says, "If you see the truth, you'll stop trying to prevent danger from happening in the future." And, that thought is believed, so I'm back to: Where's the believer of that thought? Who is afraid right now? There are sensations in the chest, but i can not separate the awareness of the sensations into two things---the one that is supposedly aware and the sensations; they seem to be melded together, like one thing. I'm getting frustrated because i can't find what i'm looking for---the one who needs to find security. Ok, who is getting frustrated? Sensations (clenching teeth, furrowed brow), thoughts and awareness of sensations and thoughts, but no single person or thing that is separate from them; it flickers off and on where the thoughts aren't believed then they are and the body feels like Nameless.
How could a fictional, non-existent thing think that it’s real?
It can't, it's impossible. It looks like thoughts are believed (believing happens) and/or I'm just conditioned and unless I'm looking the truth can't be seen. trying to make sense of it.
Do you see that what you wrote above is just a story? Just a speculation about a supposed god or higher self?
Yes, a bunch of thoughts strung together that create a story.
Please describe to me the here-and-now experience as it is.
hearing, thoughts naming sounds, sensations, thoughts appearing and disappearing, thoughts labeling what is felt, heard, ...telling elaborate stories again. :)
Are you afraid of discovering that what you’ve believed yourself to be in your whole life, Nameless, is just a fictional character and not a reality?
Absolutely. I have been saying for years that i'm afraid to see that Every single thing that i ever thought was true, is Not true. And, now there is the fear that if i let go of the illusion of Nameless i'll let go of trying to keep myself safe in a very unsafe, unstable world. I have noticed it, again, today as i was answering the questions you asked.

Nameless

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:08 am

Hi Nameless,
And, now there is the fear that if i let go of the illusion of Nameless i'll let go of trying to keep myself safe in a very unsafe, unstable world. I have noticed it, again, today as i was answering the questions you asked.
This is something that needs to be investigated. Fear can prevent going further. Fear is a protective mechanism. It’s protecting you from a story of negative consequences to this investigation.
Thought says, "If you see the truth, you'll stop trying to prevent danger from happening in the future."
This is one of the negative story that fear is trying to protect you from.

So you have this thought, and since you believe that this thought is true, therefore fear arise.

But what if this thought is not true? What if after seeing through the self-illusion the protective mechanism of the organism/body will go on, just as before?

Can you see that you are afraid of your own assumption what you’ve accepted as a fact of reality, instead of investigating the validity of that thought?


So there are two ways of dealing with this.

One, is to investigate the thought itself. To look deeper to find out HOW you know that this is what is going to happen. Looking for proofs of that thought.

The other way to go is to go much deeper and looking at the whole structure of me, the fearful one, or the me, who needs protection. If you are interested, we can look at this too. I’m going to send you a private message about the details.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:43 pm

Hi Vivien,

It happened again that i did not receive an email from 'admin' letting me know that you had responded. This is only the second time it's happened, but not sure why it's happening.
But what if this thought is not true? What if after seeing through the self-illusion the protective mechanism of the organism/body will go on, just as before?
The thing is that I've seen no one is here, and I see, almost daily, how this body moves and speaks automatically; it does not need Nameless for anything. Like even for planning for the future, spending most of my time looking in that area---Nameless has no control to stop it, nor did Nameless put that overwhelming desire to look in that direction there. When looking, it is clear that Nameless does not need Nameless to try and make things happen or prevent things from happening. A part of me, at least, believes that if I saw through the illusion, Nameless would continue doing what Nameless is doing. I'm also aware of the thought...and it's believed :), that if the illusion is seen through that Nameless will not fight for her life; there will not be enough desire to fight, that Nameless will be passive and then the story continues and i don't like the any of the possible endings. Death is fine, but it's about how the body will die and what life will be like before the body perishes.
Can you see that you are afraid of your own assumption what you’ve accepted as a fact of reality, instead of investigating the validity of that thought?
Yes, I've seen that I'm afraid of the assumption being true, that what thoughts are telling me are true. I can see that none of the scenarios are happening in the present moment, that they are thoughts making a story; the problem, as far as i can see, is that i believe them and i can't UN-believe them.
look deeper to find out HOW you know that this is what is going to happen. Looking for proofs of that thought.
I do not KNOW this will happen, it is thoughts saying it will and believing is happening.

Nameless


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