Nothingness from the north.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:40 am

Hi Arc,
No, I haven't given up. And I won't. :)
Great! :)
I ram into question that what then is the experiencer if not me? I somehow can't accept that I don't know what it is.
Experience is experience. That’s all.
But there is no me or I that could be that experience.
Experience IS. But I/me/self isn’t.
Experience exists. But I/me/self doesn’t exist.
The I/me/self/experiencer is just IMAGINED. It’s just a fantasy.
I don't understand why I always slip into that "me" or "I" mode. Still, I can not find that experiencer, no matter what I do.
It’s all right. Just keep looking and searching for the I/experiencer.
Searching, searching, searching and not find that brings about the realization.
This needs to be seen hundreds if not thousands of times, before the belief in the self gradually starts to fall away.
V: First, where is this EXPERIENCER EXACTLY? – localize it
Where is the one that has senses and could experience through its senses?
A: I can't localize it. Like before. It is impossible to point that out, where it is located.
Maybe because there is NONE?
Maybe because the experiencer is just ASSUMED?
Maybe because the experiencer is just a FANTASY?
V: Please tell me what is the AE of a tree?
A: It has colors, image and smell, which are all labeled as a tree.
Yes, they are LABELLED as ‘tree’, but a label is not the AE of tree, but the AE of THOUGHT only. Can you see this?

The colors labelled by thoughts as ‘tree’ is NOT the AE of a tree, but the AE of COLORS only. Is this clear?
The smell labelled by thoughts as ‘tree’ is NOT the AE of a tree, but the AE of SMELL only. Is this clear?
The sensation labelled as ‘touching the tree’ is NOT the AE of a tree, but the AE of SENSATION only. Is this clear?
The thought about a tree is NOT the AE of a tree, but the AE of THOUGHTS only. Is this clear?

There is ZERO AE of a tree. There is no such thing as the AE of a tree. Is this clear?

‘Tree’ is just a conceptual thought overlay on the AE of colors + smell + sensation + thought labels. Can you see this?
It has colors, image and smell,
What is the AE of a color and the AE of an image?
What is the difference between the AE of color and the AE of an image?
V: “I encounter more things” – WHAT does the word ‘I’ points to in this sentence?
WHAT is it EXACTLY that encounters more things outdoor?
WHERE is the one that could encounter more things outdoor?
A: This is a problematic part. I can't find or point out that "what" or "I" is that encounters things.
Word I points in to my body and "me" as experiencer. Still, experiencer can't be pointed where it is and those encounters (like smells, sounds) are still there, it is really nothing that this body have to do for them to exist.
All right. The seeming body is there.

But is there ANYTHING INSIDE the body, experiencing the world outside?

Search through the whole body from head to toe for the experiencer. Especially search through the head for an experiencer. Where is it?

Is there anything looking out of the eyes, and experiencing/seeing the world out there?
If yes, where is this experiencer/seer?
V: And by the way, WHAT is it exactly that can or can’t EXPERIENCE with the senses?
Where is this EXPERIENCER you are frequently talking about? Where?
A: I still can't say/find where it is....
What if the reason that the experiencer cannot be found is because there ISN’T ANY?

Do you expect to actually find something? Like finding a non-experiencer, or a no-self?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:02 pm

Hi Vivien.

Temperatures are really high here. :) It's hard to be inside the house. No air con. :)
Maybe because there is NONE?
Maybe because the experiencer is just ASSUMED?
Maybe because the experiencer is just a FANTASY?
Very good points. I'm starting to see that too. There is no evidence for things being the other way.
Yes, they are LABELLED as ‘tree’, but a label is not the AE of tree, but the AE of THOUGHT only. Can you see this?
Yes. And again I searched through the previous messages... and the answer is still yes.

The colors labelled by thoughts as ‘tree’ is NOT the AE of a tree, but the AE of COLORS only. Is this clear?
The smell labelled by thoughts as ‘tree’ is NOT the AE of a tree, but the AE of SMELL only. Is this clear?
The sensation labelled as ‘touching the tree’ is NOT the AE of a tree, but the AE of SENSATION only. Is this clear?
The thought about a tree is NOT the AE of a tree, but the AE of THOUGHTS only. Is this clear?

Yes to all. (I still somewhat struggle to keep this in mind, this needs repeating.)

There is ZERO AE of a tree. There is no such thing as the AE of a tree. Is this clear?
Yes.

‘Tree’ is just a conceptual thought overlay on the AE of colors + smell + sensation + thought labels. Can you see this?
Yes I can. This is still the hard part, because all my life there has been a "tree". This also needs some practicing which I will do...
What is the AE of a color and the AE of an image?
What is the difference between the AE of color and the AE of an image?
Image is a visual sighting, there can be colors in image.
AE of image is what I see.
AE of color is color?


But is there ANYTHING INSIDE the body, experiencing the world outside?
Nothing that I can point out. So, no.
Search through the whole body from head to toe for the experiencer. Especially search through the head for an experiencer. Where is it?
Thoughts tell it's in the brain, but that can't be proven in any way. So, I can't tell where it is.

Is there anything looking out of the eyes, and experiencing/seeing the world out there?
If yes, where is this experiencer/seer?

Same thing here. Thoughts suggest that it is there, maybe in brains, but... It can't be pointed out. It just can't. It is not possible to find that "experiencer".

What if the reason that the experiencer cannot be found is because there ISN’T ANY?
This really starts to be a very real possibility... :) So, yes. Maybe there isn't any.

Do you expect to actually find something? Like finding a non-experiencer, or a no-self?
I really would like to... but no. It looks like it's not going to happen. It looks like that there is nothing to be found at the end.
So, I don't expect that. Not anymore.
It still would be nice if there was something to be found... :D

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:45 am

Hi Arc,
V: Yes, they are LABELLED as ‘tree’, but a label is not the AE of tree, but the AE of THOUGHT only. Can you see this?
A: Yes. And again I searched through the previous messages... and the answer is still yes.
How do you do these exercises exactly?

From your comments it seems that you might try to learn it as if you were given a homework. What do you search in the previous messages? It seems to me that you are trying to remember what we covered before. Is this so?

But this is not about remembering. This is not an intellectual information that you have to learn, memorize and remember.
Do you see that this cannot be learned and remembered?

It’s not something that can be remembered from a past learning. It is something that can be SEEN NOW. Do you see the difference?
Yes to all. (I still somewhat struggle to keep this in mind, this needs repeating.)
This comment also implies that you are trying to memorize things and then ‘keep in mind’. Is this so?
V: What is the AE of a color and the AE of an image?
What is the difference between the AE of color and the AE of an image?
A: Image is a visual sighting, there can be colors in image.
AE of image is what I see.
AE of color is color?
No.

There is no such thing a visual sight.
Visual sight is just a thought label on the AE of color.
Saying that there are colors in the visual sight (image) is just a thought interpretation.
There is no image with colors in it.
There is nothing else than the AE of color.
Only thoughts label the AE of color as image or visual sight.

Please read through my above comments several times. And ACTUALLY try to SEE what I am pointing at.
Don’t just think it through, but actually check it in experience.
Let me know what you find.
Thoughts tell it's in the brain, but that can't be proven in any way. So, I can't tell where it is.
Same thing here. Thoughts suggest that it is there, maybe in brains, but... It can't be pointed out. It just can't. It is not possible to find that "experiencer".
You see, we’ve been here before. That the me maybe inside the brain.

Thoughts say all sorts of things… like “I am inside my brain”… but thoughts don’t know anything…
they are just babbling without knowing what they are talking about.
V: Do you expect to actually find something? Like finding a non-experiencer, or a no-self?
A: I really would like to... but no. It looks like it's not going to happen. It looks like that there is nothing to be found at the end.
So, I don't expect that. Not anymore.
It still would be nice if there was something to be found... :D
Maybe this desire to find a ‘me’ is preventing you from actually looking. So let’s investigate this a bit.

Why would you prefer to find something that can be called as ‘me’?

What would happen if it turned out that there is no ‘me’ whatsoever?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:04 pm

Hi Vivien.

V: Yes, they are LABELLED as ‘tree’, but a label is not the AE of tree, but the AE of THOUGHT only. Can you see this?

A: Yes. And again I searched through the previous messages... and the answer is still yes.

How do you do these exercises exactly?

From your comments it seems that you might try to learn it as if you were given a homework. What do you search in the previous messages? It seems to me that you are trying to remember what we covered before. Is this so?
That answer just means that I examined our previous conversations about the subject.
I do it because I want to see if you said something about the subject previously.
It has happened that I forget or have not understood something which has been discussed before.

But this is not about remembering. This is not an intellectual information that you have to learn, memorize and remember.
Do you see that this cannot be learned and remembered?

It’s not something that can be remembered from a past learning. It is something that can be SEEN NOW. Do you see the difference?

Yes I can.
Yes to all. (I still somewhat struggle to keep this in mind, this needs repeating.)

This comment also implies that you are trying to memorize things and then ‘keep in mind’. Is this so?

In someway yes. For all my life "tree" has been a tree. So thoughts keep saying that even that I try to look it as an image and color.
What I mean by this, I need to focus not to hang on an idea of "tree" which is suggested by thoughts. And that needs repeating.

There is no such thing a visual sight.
Visual sight is just a thought label on the AE of color.
Saying that there are colors in the visual sight (image) is just a thought interpretation.
There is no image with colors in it.
There is nothing else than the AE of color.
Only thoughts label the AE of color as image or visual sight.

Please read through my above comments several times. And ACTUALLY try to SEE what I am pointing at.
Don’t just think it through, but actually check it in experience.
Let me know what you find.

I never thought it that way, but that's the case. I can see the point here. I still can't understand how I "measure" distances, but the image itself really is only colors. Everything else is just thought interpretation of those colors.

Maybe this desire to find a ‘me’ is preventing you from actually looking. So let’s investigate this a bit.
That may very well be the case.
Why would you prefer to find something that can be called as ‘me’?
I don't really know. Thoughts just would like to find that "me" for it to exist, why I have lived my life the way I have, what am I.
But when I'm writing this, those reasons doesn't seem so important at the moment. Kind of funny.
I can't give you the exact reason, maybe there isn't one.

What would happen if it turned out that there is no ‘me’ whatsoever?
Nothing. I don't think anything would change, except that the knowing that there is no "me". Life has gone in to this point anyways, so change in that "knowledge" doesn't change anything, but "me" acting even less self centered than before.
But that was just thinking...

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:35 am

Hi Arc,
In someway yes. For all my life "tree" has been a tree. So thoughts keep saying that even that I try to look it as an image and color. What I mean by this, I need to focus not to hang on an idea of "tree" which is suggested by thoughts. And that needs repeating.
It’s important to mention here that we are not trying to change how we perceive the world or a tree. Our aim is not to stop thoughts labelling it as ‘tree’ or to change the everyday perception of it. We are just investigating what is under the conceptual thought overlay on experience. We just have a peek what is actually happening ‘under’ thoughts (when all thoughts are ignored).

Now let’s go back to investigating thoughts. I give you the same or similar questions as before. But this time please don’t go back and check how I replied to your previous comments. I would like to see what you can clearly see and what not in this moment.

Please reply to all questions one-by-one.

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:37 pm

Hi Vivien!
It’s important to mention here that we are not trying to change how we perceive the world or a tree. Our aim is not to stop thoughts labelling it as ‘tree’ or to change the everyday perception of it. We are just investigating what is under the conceptual thought overlay on experience. We just have a peek what is actually happening ‘under’ thoughts (when all thoughts are ignored).

Now let’s go back to investigating thoughts. I give you the same or similar questions as before. But this time please don’t go back and check how I replied to your previous comments. I would like to see what you can clearly see and what not in this moment.
Ok. I understand this. :)
Where do thoughts come from?
I don't know where they come from. Thoughts just appear.

Where are they going?
That I don't know either. Thought just disappears and the another one comes.
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
No. Thought is already "complete" when it appears. I can't stop it in the middle.
When I try, it can't be stopped. Single thought is also short by itself and it's already "there" when it appears.
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
No I can't. It only seems that way, because thoughts usually circle some "thing" or "aspect". They seem to be related when they are about the same "thing", but a new thought about anything can appear at any time. So the answer is, no I can't.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
This is a hard one. No I can't. Negative thoughts will appear, no matter what I do by choosing. It can't be chosen not to have negative thoughts.

There still is a possibility to somehow affect or stop thoughts from circling a negative aspect. It is a thought structure itself, but it's possible to find positive aspects about things, than just keep those negative thoughts up and present.
But it actually just is a thought itself : "Find something positive about this."

But no, it won't prevent negative thoughts from arising.


This, I answered just like you asked. I wrote only and exactly what came in to my mind at this present moment. And without seeing what we discussed about this before.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:28 am

Hi Arc,
I don't know where they come from. Thoughts just appear.
That I don't know either. Thought just disappears and the another one comes.
Yes. Thoughts are not coming from and going to anywhere.
All that can be said that there is a thought present.
Everything else just would be a speculation.
Can you see this clearly?
No I can't. It only seems that way, because thoughts usually circle some "thing" or "aspect". They seem to be related when they are about the same "thing", but a new thought about anything can appear at any time. So the answer is, no I can't.
How do you know that certain thoughts are related without another thought saying that they are related?

Thought 1: Take out toothbrush
Thought 2: Take out toothpaste
Thought 3: put toothpaste on toothbrush
Thought 4: Turn water on
Thought 5: Start brushing my teeth
Thought 6: The previous thoughts are all related.

Go through these thoughts one-by-one, and investigate by LOOKING if there is anything that is actually linking them.

Can you find an ACTUAL link or connection or relation between them? Not an imagined one, but an actual one?
If thought 6 would never arise would there be any knowledge about those thoughts being related?

Does thought 6 know anything about thought 1 or thought 2 or 3 or 4?
Does thought 6 sees or knows about a hidden connection or relation between thought 1 and 5?

Is there REALLY a connection/relation between those thoughts or only thought 6 suggest so?
There still is a possibility to somehow affect or stop thoughts from circling a negative aspect. It is a thought structure itself, but it's possible to find positive aspects about things, than just keep those negative thoughts up and present.
But it actually just is a thought itself : "Find something positive about this."
Thought 1: “Someday I will die.”
Thought 2: “I don’t like thinking about my death, so let’s find something positive about it instead.”
Thought 3: “I am still alive and can enjoy my current life!”
Thought 4: “I successfully stopped my negative thoughts by finding the positive aspect of the topic”.

Does thought 2 is aware of thought 1?
Does thought 2 know that the content of thought 1 is negative?

Does thought 2 stopped to think more about death?

Does thought 2 made a decision to find the positive aspect of thought 1?
Or was it thought 3?

If you say that thought 2 made the decision to find the positive aspect of thought 1; then did you actually SEW that thought 2 made a decision?

Have you seen the process of thought 2 making a decision to find the positive aspect of thought 1?
If yes, how a decision making process looks like?

Does thought 4 know about thought 1, 2 or 3?

If you say yes, the it means that thoughts are entities with certain powers to do things, like stopping, diverting, preventing, manipulating or controlling other thoughts. But are they?

Or is there an unknown, un-experiencable entity or agency behind the scenes pulling the strings without this entity ever being seen, discovered and experienced?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:27 am

Hi Vivien!
Yes. Thoughts are not coming from and going to anywhere.
All that can be said that there is a thought present.
Everything else just would be a speculation.
Can you see this clearly?
Yes. It is not possible to say where thoughts come or where they go.

How do you know that certain thoughts are related without another thought saying that they are related?
I can't, and that was what I tried to tell. It only seems that way because of thoughts.
Can you find an ACTUAL link or connection or relation between them? Not an imagined one, but an actual one?
No I can't. Thought 6 links them, but none of the above are linked without a thought "what brushing teeth should include".

If thought 6 would never arise would there be any knowledge about those thoughts being related?
Good question... and when looking only to mentioned thoughts 1-5, there is no knowledge of those thoughts being related.

Does thought 6 know anything about thought 1 or thought 2 or 3 or 4?
No, not really. It only sums up what brushing teeth includes and it does not even say that directly. It only tells that they are related.
Does thought 6 sees or knows about a hidden connection or relation between thought 1 and 5?
No, thought 6 doesn't know that.

Is there REALLY a connection/relation between those thoughts or only thought 6 suggest so?
No, if way stay only in thoughts 1 to 6. Then there is none.

Does thought 2 is aware of thought 1?
Does thought 2 know that the content of thought 1 is negative?
As separate thoughts - no. But something in thought 1 made number 2 to appear. The "context" remains kind of the same. But number 2 doesn't identify if number 1 is positive or negative.
Does thought 2 stopped to think more about death?
No, thought itself didn't do that at all.

Does thought 2 made a decision to find the positive aspect of thought 1?
Or was it thought 3?
It's neither of those what did it. It's more like thought 3 answered to what thought 2 suggested to do. Then thought 3 is completely different than thought 1. I don't actually know what made the decision to find positive aspect.
If you say that thought 2 made the decision to find the positive aspect of thought 1; then did you actually SEW that thought 2 made a decision?

I don't know what or where the decision was made...

Have you seen the process of thought 2 making a decision to find the positive aspect of thought 1?
If yes, how a decision making process looks like?
No I have not.

Does thought 4 know about thought 1, 2 or 3?
This one is hard to answer. Thought 4 is a separate thought, but it looks like it's aware of previous thoughts to be able to say what it says. Still, it doesn't say anything about previous thoughts itself. It kind of tells the truth about what happened, but nothing about what the previous thoughts contained. So I'll say no.
If you say yes, the it means that thoughts are entities with certain powers to do things, like stopping, diverting, preventing, manipulating or controlling other thoughts. But are they?
I don't think the thought itself did that. It didn't control or manipulate anything. It just came (number 4), and sums up, what just happened before. Nothing else. But I don't really understand how this all happens. Those thoughts are about same subject, but that is only my thought label that it is actually so.

Or is there an unknown, un-experiencable entity or agency behind the scenes pulling the strings without this entity ever being seen, discovered and experienced?

There could be. I wouldn't know if there were. But it doesn't seem very likely that there is one...


Do I need to choose between un-experiencable unknown entity and thoughts having certain powers? :D

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:34 am

Hi Arc,
V: Does thought 2 is aware of thought 1?
Does thought 2 know that the content of thought 1 is negative?
A: As separate thoughts - no. But something in thought 1 made number 2 to appear.
But HOW is it known that ‘something in thought 1 made number 2 to appear’?
When all thoughts are ignored, can it be known that thought 1 made thought 2 to appear?

Can thought 1 be observed or witnessed of actually making/doing thought 2 to appear?
Or is this just a thought speculation?
V: Or is there an unknown, un-experiencable entity or agency behind the scenes pulling the strings without this entity ever being seen, discovered and experienced?
A: There could be. I wouldn't know if there were. But it doesn't seem very likely that there is one...
We are not fantasizing whether there is this un-seen entity in the background.
We are not making assumptions, theories, speculations, conclusions.
These all happens in thought only.

We are actually stepping out the realm of thoughts, and looking at experience directly.
We are ACTIVELY SEARCHING FOR a REAL THING, a REAL ENTITY, that could perform all sorts of activates.
Can you see the difference?

How do you do these exercise? Do you actively search for a self with every single question I give you, or you rather try to think through the questions?

Do I need to choose between un-experiencable unknown entity and thoughts having certain powers? :D
What is it that could choose?
Is there a chooser? – actively search for it


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:55 am

Hi Vivien!

Sorry about my slow reply rate. But I'm being destroyed here :D Not that, it has anything to do with this discussion, but it still affects things.
But HOW is it known that ‘something in thought 1 made number 2 to appear’?
When all thoughts are ignored, can it be known that thought 1 made thought 2 to appear?
It is not exactly known. It seems so, but it is not known.
And the later question, it can't be known. If all thoughts are ignored, there is no link between those 2 thoughts. So it can't be known.

Can thought 1 be observed or witnessed of actually making/doing thought 2 to appear?
No it can't.
Or is this just a thought speculation?
It is a speculation. It really can't be withnesed, but it does feel really real.

V: Or is there an unknown, un-experiencable entity or agency behind the scenes pulling the strings without this entity ever being seen, discovered and experienced?

A: There could be. I wouldn't know if there were. But it doesn't seem very likely that there is one...

We are not fantasizing whether there is this un-seen entity in the background.
We are not making assumptions, theories, speculations, conclusions.
These all happens in thought only.

We are actually stepping out the realm of thoughts, and looking at experience directly.
We are ACTIVELY SEARCHING FOR a REAL THING, a REAL ENTITY, that could perform all sorts of activates.
Can you see the difference?
Yes I can. My answer there was ment to be a kind of a joke... Now I am answering for real. I understand what you say and I agree with that. I can see the difference.

How do you do these exercise? Do you actively search for a self with every single question I give you, or you rather try to think through the questions?

Good question. I don't know if I search for self. I just answer how it seems to be. I don't think I try to "think" through these questions. I don't believe it would even be possible. It's more like I look at the question and the answer is just there. In many cases I think about "is there a self", but the answer is always the same and it is not through intellectual thinking.

Do I need to choose between un-experiencable unknown entity and thoughts having certain powers? :D

What is it that could choose?
Is there a chooser? – actively search for it

I lay my head down..... I don't know who would be the chooser. I find it that I already passed it forward from "me". With that statement the power is already in the hands of thoughts (which come out of nowhere) or some unknown entity. So the answer is that I don't know who would be the chooser because the power of choosing is already past me. :) It definately is not me.


This was the best I could do today....

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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:06 am

Hi Arc,
Sorry about my slow reply rate. But I'm being destroyed here :D Not that, it has anything to do with this discussion, but it still affects things.
What is the reason that your reply only every 3-5 days?
Do you know the importance of the intensity of this conversation?


It is important to create a proper momentum in order to successfully carry out this investigation. What's needed is focus and intensity. The only way to enable these is to strive to post at least once a day.
V: But HOW is it known that ‘something in thought 1 made number 2 to appear’?
When all thoughts are ignored, can it be known that thought 1 made thought 2 to appear?
A: It is not exactly known. It seems so, but it is not known.
And the later question, it can't be known. If all thoughts are ignored, there is no link between those 2 thoughts. So it can't be known.
“It SEEMS so, but it is not known” – a SEEMING thing is not a REAL thing.
A SEEMING monster under the bed, is NOT a REAL monster.


Is it REALLY SEEMS so? HOW is it SEEMS so?
Or rather just thoughts ‘talk’ about one thought causing or making the other thought to appear?
What does a word/thought ‘seem’ even mean?
V: Or is this just a thought speculation?
A: It is a speculation. It really can't be withnesed, but it does feel really real.
“It does feel really real” – how does a thought speculation is FELT?
How does the ‘realness’ of something is FELT?
How does one thought causing the other is FELT?

Can any of these ACTUALLY BE FELT?
If not, then on what bases do you say that ‘it does feel really real’?
Good question. I don't know if I search for self. I just answer how it seems to be. I don't think I try to "think" through these questions. I don't believe it would even be possible. It's more like I look at the question and the answer is just there. In many cases I think about "is there a self", but the answer is always the same and it is not through intellectual thinking.
OK, so you are not thinking through the answer, but rather you ask the question, and PASSIVELY wait for the reply to arise. Is this so?

If yes, then this not looking. Looking is not a passive thing. It’s not about waiting for a thought answer to the questions. Waiting still happens in the level of thinking.

You say you look at a question and the answer is just there. Is it there in a form of thought?
Or the answer is there BEFORE ANY THOUGHTS about the answer?
With that statement the power is already in the hands of thoughts (which come out of nowhere) or some unknown entity.
Do thoughts have power?

How is it known that thoughts might come from an unknown entity?

On what bases do you make the assumption that thoughts might come from an unknown entity?
Have you ever seen that unknown entity, even just for a glimpse?
Have you ever seen thoughts coming from anywhere?
If not to both of those questions, then on what bases do you make the assumption that ‘thoughts might come from an unknown entity’?
So the answer is that I don't know who would be the chooser because the power of choosing is already past me. :) It definately is not me.
“The choosing is already past me” – what does the word ‘me’ point to in experience?
It definately is not me.
WHAT is this me, that is not the chooser of thoughts?
WHERE is this me?

On what bases is the statement made that ‘choosing is already past me, it’s not me’?
Has this ‘me’ EVER be SEEN? EVER?
If not, how can the statement is made that ‘choosing is past me, not done by me’?

WHAT and WHERE is this ‘me’ that thought is constantly talking about?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:09 am

Hi Vivien!
What is the reason that your reply only every 3-5 days?
Reason is: My current financial situation in life and the life itself. This is not like I have few unpaid bills. I have to keep doing things just to survive, for me and for my company and it's not very likely that we will survive this. The problem itself is worth 100k and I am not the one with the rush, the bank is. So the ending result is that I try to seek for funding and it takes all my time and effort, because the task is not easy in my small and very money cautious country. I have no energy left at the end of the day to sit in front of the computer. In some days I don't even get near the computer. I'm sorry about this.
Do you know the importance of the intensity of this conversation?
Yes, but I simply can't do it by the time being. I can't do this once a day and I know it creates a problem. This may change over the time, but right now I'm in very much trouble. I'm still doing the very best I can with this conversation with you. I'm sorry that things are this way in here. Please don't get offended. It's not ment that way.

Is it REALLY SEEMS so? HOW is it SEEMS so?
By that I meant that thoughts make it seem so. I understand the difference between the monster and a seeming monster.
Or rather just thoughts ‘talk’ about one thought causing or making the other thought to appear?
Yes, exactly that.
What does a word/thought ‘seem’ even mean?
It means a thought of a some sort.


V: Or is this just a thought speculation?
A: It is a speculation. It really can't be withnesed, but it does feel really real.

“It does feel really real” – how does a thought speculation is FELT?
It's not felt by actual feeling. It is a thought I take as a reality.

How does the ‘realness’ of something is FELT?
It is not.
How does one thought causing the other is FELT?
It is not.
Can any of these ACTUALLY BE FELT?
Nope, they are not. They are only thoughts that are taken as reality. But they are not really felt.


If not, then on what bases do you say that ‘it does feel really real’?
Not on any basis, now that I think about it... It is just the way it has always been, but I never saw it was just a thought.


Good question. I don't know if I search for self. I just answer how it seems to be. I don't think I try to "think" through these questions. I don't believe it would even be possible. It's more like I look at the question and the answer is just there. In many cases I think about "is there a self", but the answer is always the same and it is not through intellectual thinking.

OK, so you are not thinking through the answer, but rather you ask the question, and PASSIVELY wait for the reply to arise. Is this so?

No. I do actively ask myself the question and ask for an answer and it just comes, I don't wait. I don't try to think about it or wait for an answer. It's already there.
You say you look at a question and the answer is just there. Is it there in a form of thought?
Or the answer is there BEFORE ANY THOUGHTS about the answer?
It's the later one for sure. That is how it happens.

With that statement the power is already in the hands of thoughts (which come out of nowhere) or some unknown entity.

Do thoughts have power?

Yes. Not by themselves, but they make this body to go around and do things.

How is it known that thoughts might come from an unknown entity?
It's not known, not in any way.
On what bases do you make the assumption that thoughts might come from an unknown entity?
Thoughts are coming out of nowhere. Not from me. So I see it as a possibility that they come from an unknown entity, because there is an entity in here...
Have you ever seen that unknown entity, even just for a glimpse?
No, I don't know if I have seen that, but I have to say yes at least in some way, cause I am in an unknown entity.
Have you ever seen thoughts coming from anywhere?
Nope.
If not to both of those questions, then on what bases do you make the assumption that ‘thoughts might come from an unknown entity’?
There is no basis to make that assumption other that I am in an unknown entity myself. But no, there is no reason to make that assumption.

“The choosing is already past me” – what does the word ‘me’ point to in experience?
Me points to a "person" defined as "me" by others. The body. The one I few months ago thought was a "chooser".
WHAT is this me, that is not the chooser of thoughts?
WHERE is this me?
"Me" is a collection of thoughts (mostly copied from outside). And I don't know where it is actually located. Outside world locates it in this body, but there is no better proof where it is.


On what bases is the statement made that ‘choosing is already past me, it’s not me’?
It is made by the realization that the "me" mentioned above is not the "chooser".

Has this ‘me’ EVER be SEEN? EVER?
No. Only the body has been seen, where outside world locates the "me".

If not, how can the statement is made that ‘choosing is past me, not done by me’?
The "me" is not making the choice. It only looks that way for the others. I can't explain it better.

WHAT and WHERE is this ‘me’ that thought is constantly talking about?
Good question. I don't know where it is. I only know where it is pointed to be by thoughts.
Maybe it's nowhere. Maybe It's only thought structure of "me". Nothing else.

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Vivien
Posts: 4776
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Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:10 am

Hi Arc,
Yes, but I simply can't do it by the time being. I can't do this once a day and I know it creates a problem. This may change over the time, but right now I'm in very much trouble. I'm still doing the very best I can with this conversation with you. I'm sorry that things are this way in here. Please don't get offended. It's not ment that way.
Thank you for explaining your situation. I’m not offended at all. Replying daily would be for your benefit, not for mine. But I understand that in your current situation this cannot be done. But I have to tell you honestly, that this lessens your changes to see through the self. Maybe this is not the best time for you to do this investigation. I cannot know the answer for this, only you can.

You say that you look before thoughts arrive, but your replies shows otherwise.
So probably you just think that you look, or maybe you look some of the time, but mostly you just write down what thoughts has to say on the matter.

Because if you were really look, then you wouldn’t give these answer:
V: Do thoughts have power?
A: Yes. Not by themselves, but they make this body to go around and do things.
This is not coming from looking. This is just a thought speculation.
V: On what bases do you make the assumption that thoughts might come from an unknown entity?
A: No, I don't know if I have seen that, but I have to say yes at least in some way, cause I am in an unknown entity.
So the first part of this reply is coming from looking, but the second half of it is pure thought speculation.
V: If not to both of those questions, then on what bases do you make the assumption that ‘thoughts might come from an unknown entity’?
A: There is no basis to make that assumption other that I am in an unknown entity myself. But no, there is no reason to make that assumption.
How on Earth do you know that ‘I am an unknown entity myself’?

If this entity is unknown, then it shows that this entity is totally made up! Just a pure fantasy, nothing more.
Can you see this?
V: “The choosing is already past me” – what does the word ‘me’ point to in experience?
A: Me points to a "person" defined as "me" by others. The body. The one I few months ago thought was a "chooser".
You are not looking, you are thinking.
V: WHAT is this me, that is not the chooser of thoughts?
WHERE is this me?
A: "Me" is a collection of thoughts (mostly copied from outside). And I don't know where it is actually located. Outside world locates it in this body, but there is no better proof where it is.
Thinking again.

What does the OPINION of outside world (others) have to do with looking? – NOTHING.
V: Has this ‘me’ EVER be SEEN? EVER?
A: No. Only the body has been seen, where outside world locates the "me".
Is this your inquiry? Or is this others’ (outside world) inquiry?
How does others OPINION (which is nothing else than thoughts) has to do with experience?

V: WHAT and WHERE is this ‘me’ that thought is constantly talking about?
A: Good question. I don't know where it is. I only know where it is pointed to be by thoughts.
Maybe it's nowhere. Maybe It's only thought structure of "me". Nothing else.
All right.
I will give you only one task for the coming days.

CONSTANTLY LOOK FOR the ME that thoughts are talking about.

Don’t just try to look before replying back to me, but look every day, every hour in the next following days.
Even if this looking last just for a minute, or just 10-20 seconds.
Look as often as you can remember.
You can even set a timer to every 10 minutes.

You can look while driving, walking up a staircase, washing your hands, showering, washing your teeth, eating, before falling asleep, waiting in a line, doing the dishes, preparing food, etc.

WHAT and WHERE is this ‘me’ that thought is constantly talking about?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:40 pm

Hi Vivien!

You might be right about what you say. Timing is not good, but I will try to look anyways. I know that this lessens the chance for me to see...

How on Earth do you know that ‘I am an unknown entity myself’?
I don't know that, but since I can't figure out where or what am I, that was how I tried to describe it.

If this entity is unknown, then it shows that this entity is totally made up! Just a pure fantasy, nothing more.
Can you see this?
Yes.

V: Has this ‘me’ EVER be SEEN? EVER?

A: No. Only the body has been seen, where outside world locates the "me".

Is this your inquiry? Or is this others’ (outside world) inquiry?

Me has not been seen. This is just how others locate this "me".

How does others OPINION (which is nothing else than thoughts) has to do with experience?
It only strengthens the thought that "me" is inside the (this) body. It doesn't do anything else.

WHAT and WHERE is this ‘me’ that thought is constantly talking about?
Everything (every action) "raises" a thought that the doer or the one sensing things, "Me", is inside this body. Thoughts say that it is inside the body and it is the body itself, human. Still, no matter what I do, I can't point where that "me" is. I also can't identify what this "me" is.

But the thought about "me" comes every time when I do anything and try to find the "doer". At the end, it is a thought and it can't be verified to be true.

So, WHAT is me. I don't know.
WHERE is me. I don't know.


Arc.

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Vivien
Posts: 4776
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:42 am

Hi Arc,
V: How on Earth do you know that ‘I am an unknown entity myself’?
A: I don't know that, but since I can't figure out where or what am I, that was how I tried to describe it.
Because you BELIEVE or you WANT to BELIEVE that there is a me/self/entity.
Me has not been seen. This is just how others locate this "me".
Others NEVER EVER LOCATE a me. It's impossible.
Others just INFER, or ASSUME a ‘me’.

The ‘me’ cannot be located. Or can it?

Where is the me/Arc that others are talking ABOUT?
Everything (every action) "raises" a thought that the doer or the one sensing things, "Me", is inside this body. Thoughts say that it is inside the body and it is the body itself, human. Still, no matter what I do, I can't point where that "me" is. I also can't identify what this "me" is.
So, WHAT is me. I don't know.
WHERE is me. I don't know.
Imagine someone who has a belief that he has a sixth toe on his left foot.
How would you help this person to drop his belief?
You could try to explain to him and show scientific studies that humans have only 5 toes on each foot.
You can show him statistical charts showing the number of humans having 6 toes compare to having 5 toes only, with the conclusion that the chance that he has a sixth toe is very-very low.
You could even show your feet and say: “See, I have only 5 toes, therefore you too have only 5 toes on you left foot”

Or you can ask him to take off his boots and LOOK AT DIRECTLY his left foot and SEE that indeed he has only 5 toes.

And after he discovered by direct seeing that he indeed doesn’t have a sixth toe, would he walk around with thinking that I don’t know what is my 6th toe is, and I don’t know where it is?

Or the belief just falls away by itself after he had seen that he indeed has 5 toes only?


Of course doubt could arise out of habit believing in the existence of a sixth foot in his all life, but each time he takes a look at his foot, it’s clear that there is no sixth foot. It’s always been just an imagination.

So there has been an ACTUALLY LOOKING and it has been SEEN that there is no self/me/Arc at all, then it would be clear that there is NO self/me at all.

The comment that “I don’t know where I am, or what I am” wouldn’t come up at all!

Since it would be utterly clear that the me/I just assumed/inferred/imagined.

So either you don’t actually LOOK,
or
you are cradling and holding tight of the belief, that ‘THERE MUST BE A ME/SELF’, and therefore the fact that it is not there cannot sink in, since it is in conflict with the belief in the self. And the belief in the self has a priority; it needs to be firmly protected.

Why is it so important to you hold onto the belief in the existence of a self/me?

What do you need this belief for?

What does this belief is giving to you?

Why are you holding so tight to the belief that there is a self?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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