Nothingness from the north.

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:17 am

Hi Vivien!
Thoughts do come quite close to actual eating, but it just isn't there....

I was surprised by this answer.
Are you sure that imagining eating comes close to actually eating and tasting the food?

Thoughts never come close to experience/reality.
It may have been more like the poor choice of my words. Because this exercise is quite what I tried to mean by that phrase. I can imagine how an apple would feel, how would I eat it, how it would taste, how it would fill me up and take my hunger away, but... at the end it won't. I can only fool my self for a brief moment of time and think that I actually ate something, but it won't last. None of it is real. I ment that I can imagine the process and picturing it in my mind is at least somewhat accurate, cause I have eaten an apple before, but it still won't ever be the real thing in any way.
Do you have some food at hand? A fruit? Like an apple?
Yes. I had an orange and couple of other things.
Now imagine to touch and then holding in your hands.
Feel its weight.
Feel its shape.
Feel its texture.
Feel its temperature.
(I used an orange)
I can picture it's weight and looks when my eyes are closed.
I can picture how it feels to hold it in my hand how it's temperature is.
Now, imagine to bit into the apple.
Imagine the cracking sound.
I can imagine peeling it and taking a slice out of it. I can imagine the drop of juice on my fingers.
Imagine it’s flavour.
Imagine it’s taste.
Imagine the texture in your mouth.
I can imagine all this, the juicy taste, how it feels to bite it...
Imagine its temperature in your mouth.
Imagine its smell/fragrance.
I can imagine this a bit cold feeling and taste that I like in my mouth. I can imagine and "almost" feel the smell.
Now, open your eyes, and take a real apple in front of you, and go through all the steps above.
Now, with the real orange.

I can feel the slice in my hands, I can smell the orange, I can see a juice dripping out of it. I can feel the slice when I bite it, I can taste the actual taste.
I can enjoy it, the taste and the feeling. I like it.
Then I swallow it. Taste and smell remains for a while. Then, they are gone.

Also, repeat this experiment several times with different foods and drinks. Again and again.
Let me know what you find.
Tried this with several foods and drinks. This is what I found.

Imagination is only imagination, and the real thing always has an experience, imagination doesn't.

But this was the real finding. I thought that I could recall the actual taste by imagining, but I can't. So I thought that the imagination of the taste was correct by previous experience, but it is not. There is no way to recall the actual taste. There is only the thought about it, but it is not "right".

Now that I have tried this for several times. Orange. I know the taste, what it is, when I taste it, but I can't recall it in my imagination afterwards. It can't be imagined what the taste really is. Not even when eating the same thing over and over again with only little pauses.

It applies to smell and feeling too and so on, but I took the taste as an example.


And now I correct my statement in the beginning of the message. Imaginated eating is in no way close to reality.


-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:14 am

Hi Arc,
And now I correct my statement in the beginning of the message. Imaginated eating is in no way close to reality.
Great, nice looking.
I ment that I can imagine the process and picturing it in my mind
So are visual thoughts appear IN a mind?
If yes, how do you know that?

Is there any location where thoughts appear?

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:33 am

Hi Vivien!

And now I correct my statement in the beginning of the message. Imagined eating is in no way close to reality.

Great, nice looking.
Thank you.

I ment that I can imagine the process and picturing it in my mind

So are visual thoughts appear IN a mind?
No, I can't really say that they do. They more like "are" something in somewhere (thoughts?). But no, there are no visual thoughts that appear. There is no image, just thoughts about the "eating process", but no visual, smell or taste. There are just thoughts about the "eating process" and they are not even correct, when compared to actual sensing of the process.
If yes, how do you know that?
It was a no, so I don't know. :)

Is there any location where thoughts appear?
No not really, of course I have thought all my life that they appear in "my mind", but I can't tell you the location where they actually appear. So no.
Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
No, I can't. It can't be observed. I don't even know how it could be observed?
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
That's the problem why it can't be observed. It's only thoughts which are not in anywhere.

What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?
None of those. It's not something that is measurable in any way.

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

Good question. As a thought it could be, in imagination it could be, but that is it. As a sound... no. Sensation... no.
That's it, only as a thought or in an imagination.



This is kind of short, but this is the most I can say about these questions...

-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:08 am

Hi Arc,

You did a great looking again. It seems that you’ve learned how to look. Very good :)
So let’s dig a bit deeper with the notion of ‘mind’.

Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:08 am

Hi Vivien.
You did a great looking again. It seems that you’ve learned how to look. Very good :)
And thanks!
So let’s dig a bit deeper with the notion of ‘mind’.
This has been somehow hard task to put into words...
Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Answer is no. Words are spoken about the mind, words locate it, but the mind inside the body exists only in words. I can't find a way to prove that there would be a mind.
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?
Thoughts say that "thoughts come from mind". It also seem that different people have different kind of thoughts and that creates a thought that says people have minds. Thoughts also suggest that some minds are greater than the others.
Still, it's impossible to say that thoughts actually come from a thing called "mind". All this kind of runs around in circles and ends up only in "thoughts". And that doesn't place thoughts in to mind or make mind to exist for sure.

No way to prove the statement, "There is a mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’."
Only thoughts "prove" that.
So, the answer is no. At least I can't give the answer that there actually is an "independent mind".



-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:40 am

Hi Arc,
So, the answer is no. At least I can't give the answer that there actually is an "independent mind".
Why don’t you trust your experience?

What bigger proof do you need to see that ‘mind’ is just an imagined placeholder of thoughts, and not a reality?
Thoughts say that "thoughts come from mind".
What is a thought? Is it an entity?
What does a thoughts know?

What is the difference between words and thoughts?
Is there any?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:07 am

Hi Vivien.

So, the answer is no. At least I can't give the answer that there actually is an "independent mind".

Why don’t you trust your experience?
You are right, I should trust it. I just thought that... "thought" (again it ends into that). Yes. You are absolutely right. I should just trust my experience.

What bigger proof do you need to see that ‘mind’ is just an imagined placeholder of thoughts, and not a reality?
I just had my proof. :D
Thoughts say that "thoughts come from mind".

What is a thought? Is it an entity?

I can't put it in words what thought is... Imaginary version of something real or not real.
But an entity it's not.
What does a thoughts know?
Thought doesn't know anything.
What is the difference between words and thoughts?
Words are spoken aloud or written but there is not really much difference. (Also thoughts can be written too if wanted.)
Others can react to words, so in that way words can have affect. Maybe thoughts can have some effect too.
But at the basic level they are kind of the same. Descriptions of something real or not real, but neither the thoughts nor the words are the real thing.
If I forget the "outside world", then there is no real difference between words and thoughts.
Is there any?
If I see a word or think about the same thing, there's no difference.


-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:31 am

Hi Arc,
V: What is the difference between words and thoughts?
A: Words are spoken aloud or written but there is not really much difference. (Also thoughts can be written too if wanted.)
Others can react to words, so in that way words can have affect. Maybe thoughts can have some effect too.
But at the basic level they are kind of the same. Descriptions of something real or not real, but neither the thoughts nor the words are the real thing.
If I forget the "outside world", then there is no real difference between words and thoughts.
This is an intellectual reasoning. Thinking only.

When a thought appears “Let’s have some dinner” – isn’t that only words?
Is there anything more to the thought “let’s have some dinner” other than words?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:41 am

Hi Vivien.
V: What is the difference between words and thoughts?

A: Words are spoken aloud or written but there is not really much difference. (Also thoughts can be written too if wanted.)
Others can react to words, so in that way words can have affect. Maybe thoughts can have some effect too.
But at the basic level they are kind of the same. Descriptions of something real or not real, but neither the thoughts nor the words are the real thing.
If I forget the "outside world", then there is no real difference between words and thoughts.

This is an intellectual reasoning. Thinking only.

I know it is. :) So let's just leave it to be intellectual reasoning, nothing more.

When a thought appears “Let’s have some dinner” – isn’t that only words?
Yes. It is only words. I can't get anything more out of it.

Is there anything more to the thought “let’s have some dinner” other than words?
No there is not. No experience on that one.
After it few thoughts about the "dinner" (food maybe) could come, but that's it.

"Let's have some dinner." Is just words.


-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:33 am

Hi Arc,

Can you describe your wallet?
Involve as many of the senses as possible.

We're examining something you likely take for granted, so take a look at it with fresh eyes.
What color? Scent? Texture? Weight? Size?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:09 am

Hi Vivien.
Can you describe your wallet?
Involve as many of the senses as possible.
Yes I can. (I don't have it here with me now.)

It's black, normal sized, quite thick. Some card ends are visible. That's how it looks.
It smells like leather.
It's somewhat heavy (for a wallet), but kind of soft at the same time.

We're examining something you likely take for granted, so take a look at it with fresh eyes.
What color? Scent? Texture? Weight? Size?
Color is still mostly black, but it has a variety, mostly by lighting and shades. There are different versions of black and gray. Few small points look almost white.

It has a texture in it. Thoughts say that it's leather texture, I don't know how to describe it otherwise.
Edges are stitched with black line.

I see few white stripes at one end of the wallet (cards).

It's shape is not a real square. It almost is, edges are not straight. If I turn the wallet it's not a square shape at all.

It smells different than I thought it would. Scent is leather allright, but it was different than I expected.

Surface of it is kind of soft and it is not slippery.

It weighs a bit more than I expected.

It has no sound.

It doesn't taste like I expected. Of course I tried to eat it :D


That's it. This is what I get out of it.

I don't know if I did this right, but it ended up that, nothing was really as I expected it to be.
Some things were very far off from reality in thoughts. Most off were scent and taste.

Hopefully this was correctly done.


-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:18 am

Hi Arc,

By now you've figured out that we're comparing a material thing to the non-material. But that exercise got you out of thinking about the wallet and actually exploring its tangibles. That's where we need to be. Right there, looking at what makes something existent vs. not-so-much. And we want to think about this in simple terms rather than philosophical. Like a child. If you were to ask a child about your wallet, they would describe it in the same ways you did. This is the realm of the experiential rather than just thinking about ideas.

Take a look at your computer and keyboard. Do the same in describing it, though you don't have to write the description. Just go about the day examining the world around you, describing things to yourself.


Once you've done this with a few things, let me know this:

What makes it real? Factual?
Most importantly, why can you not refute its appearance?
Define the rules you use to determine this.
Are there any exceptions to these rules of yours?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:21 am

Hi Vivien.

This proved to me to be a hard task to do.

But, lets start.

A keyboard. Or tree. Or more like most of the things. Solid things.
What makes it real? Factual?
I can see it from a distance. There are colors.
I can touch it, if I get closer.
I can smell it, taste it or sometimes hear it.

Mostly in that order, it is determined when things are real.

Most of the things are real even if I just see them. But not all of them... Sometimes, seeing something is not enough to make it to be real.

It applies too into smelling, tasting and hearing.

Touching or feeling them makes them real.
Most importantly, why can you not refute its appearance?
When I can touch it (or feel it). Then it is really there.
That I can't refute.
Define the rules you use to determine this.
Touching things or feeling them make most of them real. Makes them to exist.
It's also possible that things are real because I can see them, smell them, taste them or hear them.
There are not clear rules. I have to sense them somehow and it is more real if it can be verified by other senses.
Are there any exceptions to these rules of yours?
Yes.

And this is the part I was in trouble with....
There are many things I can't sense in any way and they seem to exist. Like radiation or pretty much everything that goes over my sensory range (gasses, viruses). Sensory range is clearly a thought, but this is where I got in trouble. I don't know if some things "non sensible" to me actually exist, or do I just imagine that they do...

There are many things that are there, but they can't be sensed or can be sensed with only some sense. They still seem to exist at least in thoughts. Most of them I think are things I can die to... and that is strange.


This was the best I could do...

-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:50 am

Hi Arc,

You’ve mixed so much thinking and theorizing into these questions that you are missing what is actually there and what is not there in experience.

It’s essential to be clear on what is real and what is not, otherwise this inquiry cannot work.

But to be honest, I’ve run out of pointers, I don’t know what else I could say to help you to look and not think.

I would suggest that you read through the whole thread from the beginning, but only my posts, ignoring yours, and re-do every single question I’ve given you so far. So not just reading it, but LOOKING with every single question in the whole thread. It will take a while, but that’s all right.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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