Nothingness from the north.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:17 am

Hi Arc,

Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:08 am

Hi Vivien.

I did as you asked. For me it's kind of a two phased process. First, when the mind is not calm, thoughts appear. They come, sort of random. They are somewhat related to the body or it's previous experiences (at least thoughts suggest that way). But they appear out of nowhere. There is also no other link to body or previous thoughts than a thoughts itself.

If I calm my mind (This I don't know how it happens. Maybe I stop thinking about "me".). Thoughts come, but more random. They are not related to body anymore. They are much more random. But they are still appearing out of nowhere.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
Answer is no. I can't. It can't be traced where the thoughts come from.
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Absolutely no. It's gone and new thought just appears and it is different than previous.
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
No I can't. But this is the hard part. There is always a thought that tries to link thoughts to "me", but it is always a speculation if I examine it. So, it's a no.

-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:01 am

Hi Arc,
First, when the mind is not calm, thoughts appear.
Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
If I calm my mind (This I don't know how it happens. Maybe I stop thinking about "me".).
if you are the thinker of thoughts, then you MUST know how you do it.
Otherwise, “I am thinking” is just a belief, and not reality.

So please tell me, the step-by-step process of HOW you stop thinking about ‘me’. But, without any speculation, imagination or analogy. Write only about pure experiential facts.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:26 am

Hi Vivien.

I know, I tried to describe something and again... it's the wrong way of doing this. But here we go again.

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
No, I can't. It's not possible to observe "mind". I'm not even sure anymore what I would describe as the "mind". So, no, I can't.
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
It just is. Something where thoughts are. It's not a place or anything like that.

What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?
It doesn't have any of those qualities.
How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
It can't. It more like just is. But it can't be experienced in any way.
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
It can't be experienced with senses. Not in any way.

As a thought or imagination, yes. But I'm not sure if it is then experienced.

If I calm my mind (This I don't know how it happens. Maybe I stop thinking about "me".).

if you are the thinker of thoughts, then you MUST know how you do it.
Otherwise, “I am thinking” is just a belief, and not reality.

So please tell me, the step-by-step process of HOW you stop thinking about ‘me’. But, without any speculation, imagination or analogy. Write only about pure experiential facts.

I can't tell you a step-by-step process. There is none. There really is no process at all. And I can't make any sense with this without speculation or analogy. It can't be done and there are no experiential facts. There is only absence of experiential facts.


-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:41 am

Hi Arc,

At first you say:
It's not possible to observe "mind". I'm not even sure anymore what I would describe as the "mind". So, no, I can't.
But then you continue with:
It just is. Something where thoughts are. It's not a place or anything like that.
If you cannot observer a ‘mind’, and you don’t even know what a ‘mind’ is, then HOW do you know that ‘It just is’?
HOW do you know that this unfindable, and unknowable ‘mind’ exist at all?
Just because society says so?


There are tremendous amounts of beliefs accepted as reality without ever investigating them. We just simply believe whatever we were told. But just because the majority of people share certain beliefs, that doesn’t make those beliefs into real things.

For example, if a million people would start to believe in the existence of pink unicorns, would those beliefs magically create ACTUAL, REAL unicorns?

Do people beliefs have ANY effect on reality?

It can't. It more like just is. But it can't be experienced in any way.
If you cannot experience a mind, HOW do you that it’s exist?
On what bases do you make the statement ‘it’s just is’?
HOW do you know that a ‘mind’ is?

Can you see that you are still holding onto this learned beliefs, DESPITE all the evidential facts that you cannot find it, or even know what it is exactly?

Can you see that you discard or ignore the evidential facts just to KEEP your beliefs?

I can't tell you a step-by-step process. There is none. There really is no process at all. And I can't make any sense with this without speculation or analogy. It can't be done and there are no experiential facts. There is only absence of experiential facts.
Then isn’t it clear that the notion of ‘mind’ is nothing else, just a concept, but not a reality?
Can you see that ‘mind’ is just a fiction?


For the following days, I would like to ask you to observe as many beliefs you hold as you can, things you just learned somewhere, accepted at face value, without ever investigating the validity of those claims.

Please write me a LONG LIST of things you took on as beliefs without ever questioning them.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:22 am

Hi Vivien!
If you cannot observer a ‘mind’, and you don’t even know what a ‘mind’ is, then HOW do you know that ‘It just is’?
And yet I don't know that.
HOW do you know that this unfindable, and unknowable ‘mind’ exist at all?
I don't. But thoughts still are somewhere, that I can't tell you, are they in the "mind" in the beginning.
Just because society says so?
Yes. Exactly. I don't have a "proof" that "mind" exists at all.

For example, if a million people would start to believe in the existence of pink unicorns, would those beliefs magically create ACTUAL, REAL unicorns?
No. I can't tell about the others, but no matter how much I try to believe, pink unicorns won't appear.
But that statement you gave would make more people to think they saw pink unicorns every day and soon they would believe pink unicorns are real. That I don't know if it would ever make pink unicorns actual and real, but some of them would think that they are real.
Do people beliefs have ANY effect on reality?
If reality is what can be sensed at the present moment. Then it's a no. Beliefs don't have effect on reality. But they do affect how I interpret a reality.
If you cannot experience a mind, HOW do you that it’s exist?
On what bases do you make the statement ‘it’s just is’?
HOW do you know that a ‘mind’ is?
I can't actually say that mind exists. There is no way to say that for sure. It is a belief that "mind" has to be there. It really doesn't, but that is how it is taught to everybody. Still, you are right, I can't even make the statement "it just is"... there is no way to proof that there is a "mind".

Then isn’t it clear that the notion of ‘mind’ is nothing else, just a concept, but not a reality?
I agree, it's a concept.
Can you see that ‘mind’ is just a fiction?
It is. I can't argue that. There is no way to proof that it is not.

Please write me a LONG LIST of things you took on as beliefs without ever questioning them.
This list would be endless....

You need to sleep xxx hours.
You need to have work to accomplish or get....
You need to act this way to be considered as a good person.
How I need to behave.
How do I look.
Governments and countries work this way they do.
That is a moon what I see in the sky.
Everything in astrology and astronomy.
This food does this and this to your body.
These are the limits you can do.
Radio waves and how they work.
How should I work out in gym.
How should I exercise.
How different hobbies should be done. (Ice hockey or soccer f.ex.)
How do animals see colors.
How animals behave.
How world is constructed.
Atoms. Particles.
How different substances affect to you.
What is beautiful and what is not. This is somewhat questionable, but the baseline is not...
Today is Tuesday.
When you are at what given age.
Clock and why it is divided as it is.
Time.
Numbers.
Mathematics.
History. (Most parts are just taken, not questioned, but I can't confirm any part. Not even those I don't agree with.)
Physics. I've tested some and they mostly apply, but after all they are just gotten without questioning. They are also just gotten from other people.

This list would be endless. Everything is kind of taken as a belief.
For example even color - green. Well, it looks like how it looks, but the label "green" is taken as belief. I never questioned that.

And if my mind is a belief itself, can creations of other "minds" be anything but beliefs?

-I still may have taken everything as a belief myself.

-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:35 am

Hi Arc,

Nice work with the beliefs.
V: HOW do you know that this unfindable, and unknowable ‘mind’ exist at all?
A: don't. But thoughts still are somewhere, that I can't tell you, are they in the "mind" in the beginning.
What do you mean exactly by ‘thoughts still are somewhere’? That they are stored somewhere?
Or that they appear at a certain location?

So is there a storage place for thoughts?
If yes, where is it?


Remember, don’t go to speculation, just write only about the facts.

And when there is a thought, is that thought appears in a certain location?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:41 am

Hi Vivien.
Nice work with the beliefs.
Thanks. I try to continue that way.
V: HOW do you know that this unfindable, and unknowable ‘mind’ exist at all?

A: don't. But thoughts still are somewhere, that I can't tell you, are they in the "mind" in the beginning.

What do you mean exactly by ‘thoughts still are somewhere’? That they are stored somewhere?
I mean, I am having thoughts, but I don't know are they in "mind" or where they are. It is impossible to sense thoughts, but I am still having thoughts. I try to say that thoughts are not necessarily in me, but I don't know where they are or if they are real at all. I don't know if thoughts are or are not stored somewhere.
I have memories, or this body has. I consider memories as thoughts too, but I don't know where they are stored either.
So, in a way I mean that I don't understand where and what thoughts are.
Or that they appear at a certain location?
1. Yes, this is a question too. Why certain locations and events somehow trigger certain thoughts.
Maybe this is just linked to the body.

2. There is not a location where the thought appears at. There is no "thought station" where they come from or where they appear.

So is there a storage place for thoughts?
Not that I know of or can find... that is why I'm confused with the thoughts. :) They seem to be in nowhere.
If yes, where is it?
It's a no, there is no storage place that I can sense.

And when there is a thought, is that thought appears in a certain location?
In a way. Yes. (By this I mean thought can be risen by some event or place or other sensory input). There are times when thoughts appear like labels, like the word "green", when you see something of color green.

But if you mean that if thought appears in a certain location (the thought itself), it is a no. Thoughts just appear. There is no place "where" they appear.



There can be some misunderstandings by me and I didn't get it right what you asked. Sorry for this, I wasn't really sure in few cases if I understood it right.


-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:39 am

Hi Arc,
I mean, I am having thoughts, but I don't know are they in "mind" or where they are. It is impossible to sense thoughts, but I am still having thoughts.
What does the word ‘I’ in your above comment point to in experience?
What is this ‘I’ that is having thoughts?
And where is this ‘I’, where is its exact physical location?
But if you mean that if thought appears in a certain location (the thought itself), it is a no. Thoughts just appear. There is no place "where" they appear.
Yes, exactly. This is what I was trying to point at.
V: So is there a storage place for thoughts?
A: Not that I know of or can find... that is why I'm confused with the thoughts. :) They seem to be in nowhere.
What if the reason you cannot find thoughts because thoughts are NOT real?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:22 am

Hi Vivien!

Again, very good questions...
I mean, I am having thoughts, but I don't know are they in "mind" or where they are. It is impossible to sense thoughts, but I am still having thoughts.

What does the word ‘I’ in your above comment point to in experience?
This is a hard one. "I" points in "me", BUT, I can't determine if thoughts are a thoughts of a body or are they thoughts of "me" (which is nowhere or is everywhere). In any case "I" or "me" is only experienced in thoughts, it can't be sensed in any other way. If that counts as an experience.

The "I" is where thoughts put it to be...
What is this ‘I’ that is having thoughts?
Well, there's the problem. It can't be defined what it is. "I" is a collection of thoughts and observations/sensations got from body. Still it can't be sensed in any way.
And where is this ‘I’, where is its exact physical location?
It can't be located inside the body, but it can't be located outside of it either. It does not have a physical location.


What if the reason you cannot find thoughts because thoughts are NOT real?
That's a very good reason. I don't know what to say... All the "evidence" shows that it is the case. Thoughts are not real.
Now I have about hundred questions to ask :)
But, I'll wait, I think they will be answered in time.


-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:35 am

Hi Arc,
In any case "I" or "me" is only experienced in thoughts, it can't be sensed in any other way. If that counts as an experience.
How could the content of a thought be an experience?

Imagine that you are in a hot desert, close to dying of thirst.

Does the thought of the water will save your life?
If not, why not?

Can you see that the thought of water doesn’t contain experience?

Can you see it the thought of water would contain experience, then you would be quench your thirst by think of water or thinking of drinking?

Is there any thought that contains experience?
Please list ALL the thoughts that contain experience.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:20 am

Hi Vivien.

It took awhile, but I'm through Christmas... and back here.
How could the content of a thought be an experience?
So, it doesn't count... and you are right, it's not an experience.
Imagine that you are in a hot desert, close to dying of thirst.

Does the thought of the water will save your life?
Nope.
If not, why not?
Thought of water won't help. It won't actually do anything. I won't see it, feel it, taste it. It won't do anything. I would not believe it to be real and help me.
Thought of not being thirsty would be better...
Can you see that the thought of water doesn’t contain experience?
Yes. Absolutely. It doesn't do that.
Can you see it the thought of water would contain experience, then you would be quench your thirst by think of water or thinking of drinking?
Yes I can, and that wouldn't help me in situation described.
Is there any thought that contains experience?
Only the thoughts that rise from actual experiences and only in a way. Like the refreshing taste of water in wilderness after not having it for a long time. (I have actually experienced that thirst situation what you described) :D
So the answer is no. There is no thoughts that contain experience.
Please list ALL the thoughts that contain experience.
At first it seemed that there were thoughts that contain experience. But there are not. I had my time with this, but there are none. Thoughts are somewhat linked into emotions and those can rise. But no matter how much I think. There is no experience in thoughts.

-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:31 am

Hi Arc,
At first it seemed that there were thoughts that contain experience. But there are not. I had my time with this, but there are none. Thoughts are somewhat linked into emotions and those can rise. But no matter how much I think. There is no experience in thoughts.
Exactly. You’ve realized something very important. Please look into this more. This is the bases for seeing through the self.

Here are some simple exercises for you. I would like to ask you to actually do the exercises, and not just think through them. Although they are very simple exercises, but exactly because of the simplicity it’s often overlooked. So please actually do them.

Here is an experiment for you. You will need a chair.

Choose a spot where there is some space both to your left and right.
Put the chair to your right.
Now turn slightly to your left, where there is some empty space.

Not turn back to your right, and investigate the chair thoroughly. Touch it, feel the fabric or the material it’s made of, look at its size, shape, color, texture.

Now turn back to your left to the empty space and try to imagine that there is the same chair you observed on your right. If it helps close your eyes. Imagine its fabric, size, color, shape, texture. Make it as vivid as you can. So you have two chairs, one on your right, and an imagined copy of it on your left.

Now open your eyes, and sit on that imagined chair of your left. Literally sit on it.
Can you do that? Why not?

Now turn to your right, and sit on the chair.
Can you do that? Why?

While sitting on the chair, investigate these:

Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘warm’ be felt?
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?

Can the thought of eating make your hunger go away?

Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
WHY not?

So what is the difference between real and imagined?

What is the difference between a chair and the THOUGHT OF a chair?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:37 am

Hi Vivien!

I did the exercises, so here we go.
Now open your eyes, and sit on that imagined chair of your left. Literally sit on it.
Can you do that? Why not?
No, I could not do that. The chair just was not there. I just got my ass closer to the floor when I went through the chair in the left.... It seemed right in my mind, but it was not really there.
Now turn to your right, and sit on the chair.
Can you do that? Why?
Yes. Because the chair is there. I can see it, feel it... And I can sit on it. It actually stops me before the floor.
Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
No. I can "recall" a thought of sweet, but it is not tasted.
Can the thought ‘warm’ be felt?
Same thing, I can't fell it or experience it.
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Nope, thought about the feeling is recalled, but not the smell, just the "image".
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
No it can't.
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?
Nope, just the thought about it and the thought about annoying feeling which will come after loud noise.


Can the thought of eating make your hunger go away?
Not really, it will work for a second, but it won't take hunger away. I can imagine how it feels to eat certain food, how it would taste and so on. But after all, I will still remain hungry. Thoughts do come quite close to actual eating, but it just isn't there.... I don't believe the thought, it won't fill me and I'll remain hungry.

Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
WHY not?
No. The thought of the feeling is quite right, but there is no water and sand. They just are not there. It is just a thought. There is no beach in reality, cause I don't get wet and sandy.

So what is the difference between real and imagined?
In real there is always an experience and the feeling of some sort (whether it is smell, taste or touch). In thoughts there is never.
What is the difference between a chair and the THOUGHT OF a chair?
Thought chair can't be sit on, seen or felt. Real one can. Even if I don't see it...

This was the best I could do with these.

-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:45 am

Hi Arc,
Thoughts do come quite close to actual eating, but it just isn't there....
I was surprised by this answer.
Are you sure that imagining eating comes close to actually eating and tasting the food?

Thoughts never come close to experience/reality.

Do you have some food at hand? A fruit? Like an apple?

Sit down, close your eyes, and try to imagine the apple. Try to see it as precisely as you can.
See the colors and all the little details.

Now imagine to touch and then holding in your hands.
Feel its weight.
Feel its shape.
Feel its texture.
Feel its temperature.

Now, imagine to bit into the apple.
Imagine the cracking sound.
Imagine it’s flavour.
Imagine it’s taste.
Imagine the texture in your mouth.
Imagine its temperature in your mouth.
Imagine its smell/fragrance.

Now, open your eyes, and take a real apple in front of you, and go through all the steps above.

Also, repeat this experiment several times with different foods and drinks. Again and again.
Let me know what you find.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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