Nothingness from the north.

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:43 am

Hi Vivien.

I really tried to "look" and not just think...

Can you see that trying to find a solution by thinking is always just a speculation? Just a fantasy?
Yes, I'm beginning to see this. It (finding solution) starts with the sensory input, but... after that it is just speculation based on something (learnt before). So, it can be described as fantasy. It is not experience anymore.
Can you see that the real answer can only come from experience and not from thinking?
Yes. (But it is really hard to eliminate thinking.) I do see that the thinking can't be trusted and it can do any kind of tricks or it is not real at all. Experiences don't do that.
If you can, why is that that the real answer can only come from experience and not from thinking?
Because the thinking could just be "my" interpretation or vision or what so ever about anything and I don't even know where the thought pattern/structure originally came. In short, the experiences are real. That's why they can give the real answer. But they are buried under a ton of thinking... That's what makes this hard. I'm too used to think.
Is there a ‘me’ experienced when the body is felt, seen, heard, tasted, smelled?
No, the body is felt, seen, etc. Not the me. I only think about me if I touch my forehead. I only feel the touch.
The body is experienced, but does a ‘me’ experienced?
"Me" can't be experienced with senses. It's only in my thoughts, that what the "me" is. I can only experience the body.



-Arc

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4788
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:22 am

Hi Arc,
I'm too used to think.
What is exactly that is used to thinking?

Where is the thinker of thoughts?


Find the thinker.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:13 am

Hi Vivien!

I've been staring at your last message for long. Very long...
I'm too used to think.

What is exactly that is used to thinking?
No matter what I do. I can't see it, I can't touch it, I can't smell it, I can't taste it, I can't hear it...

.... Is it just the body, that is used to thinking. (Now laying my head down.) There is nothing else left. There is nothing to sense. There is no thinker to be found with senses. Only the body.
Where is the thinker of thoughts?


Task is impossible. There is no way to do that. I can only find the body, not the thinker itself.
Find the thinker.
It could be anywhere or nowhere. I can only find the body of "me". I simply can't say where the thinker is. I can only say where the body is (about), which senses the things.

But if body is just a body and the thinker is not in there. I don't know where the hell it is.... :D

None of this can be experienced. So I don't know.



Not much, but the best I could do.

-Arc

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4788
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:31 am

Hi Arc,
.... Is it just the body, that is used to thinking. (Now laying my head down.) There is nothing else left. There is nothing to sense. There is no thinker to be found with senses. Only the body.
Yes, there is only the body.

But if you put aside all learned knowledge, all speculations and logical conclusions, how do you know that the body is doing the thinking?

The body is there, thoughts are there too.
But have you ever witnessed the body actually performing the act of thinking?

I can only find the body of "me".
The body is there, yes.
But HOW do you know that it’s the ‘body of me’?

The body is there. But where is the ‘of me’ part?
Point with your finger (literally) to the ‘of me’ part.
Where do you point at?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:26 am

Hi Vivien.

Knowledge, logic and all that say otherwise, but....
But if you put aside all learned knowledge, all speculations and logical conclusions, how do you know that the body is doing the thinking?
There is now way to know that. Outside world tends to say and point that it is so, but it is not. There is no way to say that the body is doing the thinking. It might do so, but it might as well be something else that the body is part of, what does so. Body does interpret the sensory information in some way, but that can't be said for sure that the body is doing the thinking.
The body is there, thoughts are there too.
But have you ever witnessed the body actually performing the act of thinking?
No, I don't think so. It's more like that the body can react to things. But no. I have never witnessed that. No, I haven't ever sensed body to do that, the act of thinking.
The body is there, yes.
But HOW do you know that it’s the ‘body of me’?
Well I don't. It is only knowledge told to "me" and belived of course. Still, I can't say it is a body of me. Only the body can be examined. Not the "me". As far as this goes. The body could be part of anything and it just is taught to be "me". But that is just speculation.
But how do I know, that it's the "body of me". I don't. I can look at it, but I can't find the seer. I can touch it, but I can't find the one that touches. There is no-one else in the house, so nobody sees me right now
The body is there. But there is no way to say that it is mine.
The body is there. But where is the ‘of me’ part?
That's the thing. I was sure that it was there, inside the body, but it's not. "Me" is just imagination. I just can't tell you that where it is. I just went outside and there was this body, and things within sensory range of the body. The "me" I can not sense.
Point with your finger (literally) to the ‘of me’ part.
Where do you point at?
Oh I tried. And this happened. I felt like pointing something behind "me", behind the body. But there is nothing there.

I know, that is not reasonable, but that is how I felt. Not pointing at brain, head or heart...

So where do I point? Somewhere behind me? Everywhere? It's more like raising my hands up. There is nowhere to point if I strip the logic and stuff.


-Arc

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4788
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:02 am

Hi Arc,
There is nowhere to point if I strip the logic and stuff.
It’s great that you can see this. And you always have to strip away all logic and speculation. And just to look at what is left, just the bare bones.

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:

Is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?


Repeat this several times before replying. Make sure that you are 100% certain of your replies.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Hi Vivien.

This task has proven itself really hard to perform. Couple of years ago there was some kind of a change in my ability to imagine things. It's not like it used to be. What I mean by that is, I can't picture/visualize a spoon in my hand the way I used to. It's more like just a thought of a spoon in my hand, without that "visual image" what it was earlier. Like when imagining a spoon (or a sports car) I really "saw" it in my thoughts, a bit like being in movies. But not anymore. I don't know why this has happened.

I have tried to do this for very many times now. Still can't do it properly and the results are following.

Is there a spoon here, in real life?
No. There never was.
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
I looked at my hand. (visual, senses) But it was never felt to be there in the first place. So the visual sighting was not even needed.
What happened to the spoon?
Nothing. It was only a thought or imagination and it stayed that way.
Did it disappear or it never existed?
Only the thought of a spoon existed. Nothing disappeared. Thought was there, spoon was not.


-Arc

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4788
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:09 am

Hi Arc,
Only the thought of a spoon existed. Nothing disappeared. Thought was there, spoon was not.
Exactly, you did a great looking. This is very important. Since we are looking for a REAL self, and not just an imagined one, like the imagined spoon.

Is life something you do or something that is happening?

What is not happening on automatic?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:47 am

Hi Vivien!
Exactly, you did a great looking. This is very important.
Thank you. I tried :)
Is life something you do or something that is happening?
I've been trying to look this. Very much.

I have to say life is happening. There is not much that I actually do. It's more like I just support life. But the life itself is just happening. Breathing, moving and almost (all?) everything is just happens without any doing.
What is not happening on automatic?
Supporting the life of this body. It does live on automatic, but it does need some support like food, water and things like that at basic level. Filling it's needs at least doesn't seem to happen on automatic. Well, when feeling thirsty, the process of getting water is pretty much automated.
But.... needs, at least most (all?) of them are just thoughts. I can't sense them. (Like a need for company, it can't be sensed, I can't sense absence of a person. This just for an example.) So I'm actually filling a need of thought. And that happens in a very automated way.

And in life itself. It's on automatic. I don't have to do anything to live for a next minute or so. Body is doing it by itself.

Only thing that "seems" not to be running on complete automatic is this "thinking unit". But it might very well do that too... this one I'm not still sure yet.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4788
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:05 am

Hi Arc,
I have to say life is happening. There is not much that I actually do. It's more like I just support life.
Who supporting the life of the body?
Where is this ‘I’, the life-supporter?
And in life itself. It's on automatic. I don't have to do anything to live for a next minute or so. Body is doing it by itself.
“I don’t have to do anything to live” – what does the word ‘I’ point to in experience?
What is the ‘I’ that doesn’t have to do anything to live?
Does the ‘I’ live?
Only thing that "seems" not to be running on complete automatic is this "thinking unit". But it might very well do that too... this one I'm not still sure yet.
Is there such thing as ‘thinking unit’? Where? In imagination?
What is thinking? What is doing the thinking?


Don’t think, don’t speculate, don’t write about imagination or metaphors, only write about what is here now, in this moment without any speculation.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:37 am

Hi Vivien!
Who supporting the life of the body?
The thing called "me", thoughts. They try to support the body to find food, water, etc. Nothing that can be experienced, just thoughts. ...and this is again just speculation. Actually nothing that can be experienced is supporting the life of the body.
Where is this ‘I’, the life-supporter?
That "I" can't be experienced. It is only thoughts and I can't even tell that thoughts are inside the body.
“I don’t have to do anything to live” – what does the word ‘I’ point to in experience?
It points to "me" the imagined me that has to be there. And still it's not. Living just happens. That's it.
What is the ‘I’ that doesn’t have to do anything to live?
That "I" is what I thought to be "me", the personality, traits, memories, all inside the body... But, it is not. I don't really know what or where that "I" is.
Experience is, experienced thing is, but the "I" is not.
I can't give better answer than this without speculating something. I don't know what this "I" is.
Does the ‘I’ live?
No..... or I don't know how life is counted. Body lives, but this "I"... I don't know. It is not a living creature by itself, at least it can't be sensed to be alive. It just is.
Is there such thing as ‘thinking unit’? Where? In imagination?
Yes. In imagination. It can't be found anywhere else.
What is thinking? What is doing the thinking?
Problem solving with thoughts. Creating imaginationary scenarios about everything.

The "I" is doing it.

These are the best answers I have... I'm stuck here.

Thinking can't be sensed nor the thinker. That's it.

I know, I find this frustrating too :) I'm trying, but this is all I can say. It just is not there. The "I" or the thinker.

There is only the experience and the experienced thing.

-Arc

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4788
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:48 am

Hi Arc,

Your comments are quite contradictory.
The thing called "me", thoughts. They try to support the body to find food, water, etc. Nothing that can be experienced, just thoughts. ...and this is again just speculation. Actually nothing that can be experienced is supporting the life of the body.
Exactly, this is just a pure fantasy.
You are taking thoughts as if they were some authority on knowing things.
V: What is thinking? What is doing the thinking?
A: Problem solving with thoughts. Creating imaginationary scenarios about everything.
The "I" is doing it.
These are the best answers I have... I'm stuck here.
If you really are the thinker of thoughts, then the following exercise will be super easy for you :)

You’ve done this exercise before, but nevertheless do it again. And don’t go back and read your previous reply. Reply to them as if this where the first time doing them.

Try to create/think a thought from scratch.

How do you do it?
Do you use words to make up the thoughts?
Where do you get those words from? Is there a storage place where you go in and grab the word you need?
Do you use grammar? How do you apply grammar on those words?
And what does the thought look like when it is half formed, before you have finished creating it?
Or is there an infinite number of words somewhere stored hidden from sight, and you go there and pick and choose the words and the grammar structures to create a thought?
Or do you create the words themselves, letter by letter?
Where do you get the letters from?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:50 am

Hi Vivien!

Let's get into this... again :)
Your comments are quite contradictory.
I very well know this.
Try to create/think a thought from scratch.

How do you do it?
There is a possibility of doing that, but that only creates something very random. Random image? Video? I don't know what that is, but it is not mine. It just comes.

If "I" try to do it, it's always a result of sensory input or thought previous to it.
Do you use words to make up the thoughts?
No, not by that sense, but thought can appear from word, like "north", it creates thought about north. But no, I do not use words to make up thoughts.
Where do you get those words from? Is there a storage place where you go in and grab the word you need?
Words are just learned. They conceptualize things. I don't know where the storage is. I just know words.
Do you use grammar? How do you apply grammar on those words?
Nope. Grammar is just applied when it needs to, I don't do it.
And what does the thought look like when it is half formed, before you have finished creating it?
It can't be "half formed".
Or is there an infinite number of words somewhere stored hidden from sight, and you go there and pick and choose the words and the grammar structures to create a thought?
No there is not.
Or do you create the words themselves, letter by letter?
No I don't.
Where do you get the letters from?
I don't know. I learnt them, I know how they look. That is all. All those things are "agreed" how they should be.


These questions can't be answered. These things don't really exist.
I do get it that thoughts come from nowhere and I don't make them.

I try to explain what is the problem here....

The problem here (and with me) is that there are different thoughts. Like these. Like driving a car. Someone does it better someone does it worse. There is a huge difference between people.
Then again, everybody can think about a horse or stuff like that.
Thoughts are very different by their subject and the one about horse does not have an effect in "real world" unlike the first one.

I somehow take it that a skill of doing something is tied into me. That creates a conflict with statement that thoughts are just coming out of nowhere. Why aren't all the people just as good in everything....

Only answer I can think of is: I make the outside to match the inside (or the other way around), but if there is no me doing that, who or what is doing it?

Maybe you catch something from these lines what is going wrong :)

-Arc

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4788
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:43 am

Hi Arc,
The problem here (and with me) is that there are different thoughts. Like these. Like driving a car. Someone does it better someone does it worse. There is a huge difference between people.
Then again, everybody can think about a horse or stuff like that.
Thoughts are very different by their subject and the one about horse does not have an effect in "real world" unlike the first one.
To be honest, I have no idea what you are talking about. All if this is just a thought speculation.
Just because one person drives better than another, then what? What does driving ability have to do with thoughts? I tell you, nothing.

You are taking the thought content as if it were something real.
You are trying to categorize thoughts based on what the thought is about.
Without SEEING that ALL thoughts (no matter what) are just a fictions, imaginations.

It’s like you are trying to categorize different cartoon characters, without seeing that ALL cartoon characters are FICTIONAL. None of them are real. They don’t exist in the real world.
I somehow take it that a skill of doing something is tied into me. That creates a conflict with statement that thoughts are just coming out of nowhere. Why aren't all the people just as good in everything....
I have no idea what you are talking about and what does a skill have to do with thoughts. But I can see that you are trying to use some distorted logic here.
This is a pure speculation.
You cannot get anywhere with this.
You have to stop figuring this out by thinking and speculating.
This is a dead end.

It’s like speculating about the cartoon characters, which are better or worse, which one has more skills, or better skills, without SEEING that those characters are just the fiction of imagination. They are not real.
Maybe you catch something from these lines what is going wrong :)
What is going wrong is that you rely on thinking instead of looking.

You rely on speculation instead of looking at what is in front of you… looking at reality as it is, here in this moment, without any speculation. You have to look at experiential FACTS, and not speculate/think about… what if this, or what if that…
but thought can appear from word, like "north", it creates thought about north. But no, I do not use words to make up thoughts.
But how do you know that the word ‘north’ is creating the next thought about north?
Isn’t this is just a logical conclusion? That one thought created the other, based on the assumption because their contents are similar (both about north)?
Can you see that this is not coming from looking, rather it’s just an intellectual speculation?
Can actually OBSERVE the PROCESS that the thought ‘north’ is creating the next thought about north?
Is there really such creating process?
Can you LITERALLY SEE as one thought creating another thought?
Can you describe the process of reaction, without any speculation, imagination or analogy?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Arcticshaman
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:32 am

Hi Vivien.

Alright, let's try again... Maybe I understood something from last messages.
but thought can appear from word, like "north", it creates thought about north. But no, I do not use words to make up thoughts.

But how do you know that the word ‘north’ is creating the next thought about north?
I don't. It can't be verified with senses that it does.
Isn’t this is just a logical conclusion? That one thought created the other, based on the assumption because their contents are similar (both about north)?
Yes it is. It is just an assumption.
Can you see that this is not coming from looking, rather it’s just an intellectual speculation?
Yes. I do see that. It is exactly that way.
Can actually OBSERVE the PROCESS that the thought ‘north’ is creating the next thought about north?
No I can't. It can't be observed.
Is there really such creating process?
No, there is not anything like that, what can be sensed in any way.
Can you LITERALLY SEE as one thought creating another thought?
No, I can't literally see that happening.
Can you describe the process of reaction, without any speculation, imagination or analogy?
Actually I can't. It can't be done without speculation, imagination or analogy. I tried this over for many times, but I can't do it.



-Arc


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 51 guests