Nothingness from the north.

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:54 am

Hi Vivien.

Sorry for that this answer took so much time. But you know what my situation is now. Still, sorry for this.
V: How on Earth do you know that ‘I am an unknown entity myself’?

A: I don't know that, but since I can't figure out where or what am I, that was how I tried to describe it.

Because you BELIEVE or you WANT to BELIEVE that there is a me/self/entity.

Me has not been seen. This is just how others locate this "me".

Others NEVER EVER LOCATE a me. It's impossible.
Others just INFER, or ASSUME a ‘me’.

The ‘me’ cannot be located. Or can it?
No, the "me" can not be located. I don't know why I want so much to believe that there is a me/self/entity. It kind of puzzles me off that I want to do so. I don't know why?
This is very strange, because almost every time this happens I try to seek for this self. And I can't find it. So I don't understand the urge to have it... (This is just my thoughts.... but, I somehow want to hold on to the thing that what I have done in life, studied university degree, went to army, stuff like that, weren't for nothing. I SEE how it is, but thoughts still want to say that I have done at least something in this life. I think this is the reason I want to believe.)

Where is the me/Arc that others are talking ABOUT?
It's nowhere. But for them, it is. It's the body, doings, habits, actions of someone/thing, but they actually don't know anything about the "Arc" itself. I don't know anything about it. The "Arc" I mean.

So the answer is. The "Arc" is only in thoughts.

And after he discovered by direct seeing that he indeed doesn’t have a sixth toe, would he walk around with thinking that I don’t know what is my 6th toe is, and I don’t know where it is?
At first he actually might wonder where the sixth toe is. :D But, when he realizes that it was never there...
I see something in here... Yes, I know, I was newer there...

Or the belief just falls away by itself after he had seen that he indeed has 5 toes only?
Belief falls away when the seer releases it. I can see that, and it works for me too...

Why is it so important to you hold onto the belief in the existence of a self/me?
By the present knowledge, this is just nonsense, but I'll try to answer your question. It was important because, when I realized that the "me" was just a collection of habits, "knowledge", sayings, beliefs and expectations of other people, I wanted to be "real" me. I really wanted to be real me, without affection from outside. Then I found you and found out that there was more than that the "me" was just a creation. There was nothing even in that zero point where no-one else had any affect in me. There was no point where I could reset "me". But that's why I so hardly hold on to finding "me". I really wanted to be "me".
What do you need this belief for?
I don't actually need it. There is no real reason for that.
What does this belief is giving to you?
Good question. Belief kind of gives me a freedom. Freedom to be myself, whatever that is... Maybe it just was one point of a bigger journey, I don't know, but it felt good to realize that the past "me" was just a thought creation. And I could find the "real me", when I loose all that nonsense. And here I am. Never found anything...

Why are you holding so tight to the belief that there is a self?
I already gave my best answer. I can't give you any better. I wanted to be something.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:14 am

Hi Arc,
It was important because, when I realized that the "me" was just a collection of habits, "knowledge", sayings, beliefs and expectations of other people, I wanted to be "real" me. I really wanted to be real me, without affection from outside. Then I found you and found out that there was more than that the "me" was just a creation. There was nothing even in that zero point where no-one else had any affect in me. There was no point where I could reset "me". But that's why I so hardly hold on to finding "me". I really wanted to be "me".
So are expecting/wanting to find the ‘real me’.

But with this investigation you will never ever be able to find a ‘real me’, or any kind of me/self.

If your desire is to find the ‘real me’, then this investigation is not for you. And if that is the case, then that’s all right.

Please, in the next few days, really-really contemplate what is it that you really want.

You don’t have to see through the self if this is not what you want (and by the way you won’t be able to if you want something else).
Just be honest with yourself! Be honest, if seeing through the self (seeing no self) is what you really want.

There is no point of continuing with this investigation if you are after a ‘real me’. We will continue only, if you can say with certainty that you have let go of the desire of finding the ‘real me’, are you ready and willing to really see through the self, to see that the self is just a fabrication, just an illusion.

Let me know how you decide.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:55 am

Hi Vivien.

I was trying only to answer the question you asked and tell to you why I think it is this way.
Why is it so important to you hold onto the belief in the existence of a self/me?
I tried only to explain why this HAS been so important for me. I'm not saying that I want to find real me. I wanted to do so before, that is for sure, but I tried to say that I've found out that that won't happen. There is no me to be found. I thought there was and that's why it is not easy for me to release that belief. This was just an answer to your question.

For me the answer that there is no "me" is as good as finding the "real me". They are both equally good things. So no, I'm not expecting to find "real me". I'm not expecting anything.
Let me know how you decide.
How can I decide? No-one and nothing says what it wants.
As said before, I can't even find that decision maker.

I'll see what happens.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:42 am

Hi Arc,
V: Let me know how you decide.
A: How can I decide? No-one and nothing says what it wants.
As said before, I can't even find that decision maker.
Just because there is no decision maker, we still can communicate according to that belief. Just because it’s seen that there is no decision maker, we don’t stop using the concept of decision. We don’t stop using this word when communicate with others.

So, it’s your decision if you want to continue with this investigation or not.

But I had to make it clear for you that you will never ever found a me.
So if you can let go of the desire to want to find a me, and you are really interested and DETERMINED to see how reality is actually IS, that everything is functioning perfectly without a central orchestrator, a me, then let me know.

I’m here to help you. But I can only help with seeing that there is no central point (me/self) to which experience is happening to.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:23 pm

Hi Vivien.
V: Let me know how you decide.

A: How can I decide? No-one and nothing says what it wants.
As said before, I can't even find that decision maker.

Just because there is no decision maker, we still can communicate according to that belief. Just because it’s seen that there is no decision maker, we don’t stop using the concept of decision. We don’t stop using this word when communicate with others.

So, it’s your decision if you want to continue with this investigation or not.

Yes. I understand. So the answer is still yes. I want to continue the investigation. It will happen one way or another.
So if you can let go of the desire to want to find a me, and you are really interested and DETERMINED to see how reality is actually IS, that everything is functioning perfectly without a central orchestrator, a me, then let me know.
Yes I do, and for some reason I have seen that this happens around me right now. Things functioning without "me", I mean.
I can give up finding me, I already found out that it won't happen.

-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:52 am

Hi Arc,
Yes. I understand. So the answer is still yes. I want to continue the investigation.
All right. Let’s start this whole process over, from the beginning.

But we will do this differently. You are prone to think everything through, so we need a different method to get you out from thinking and analysing. We are going to try out a completely different guiding style.

I would like to ask you to forget everything we have done so far. Literally everything. Forget about the notion of AE, forget about if there is anything outside of experience or not. We won’t use the term AE any more. We put aside everything we’ve done so far.

We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

This investigation will be very-very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.
You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

I will at times ask things repeatedly, or in very simple language. If that happens, trust the process as it's meant to stop the intellectualizing an allow exploration of the experiential.

So, let’s start it. :)

Imagine, that you are a five-year old child, and I am your five-year old friend. We are playing together in the kindergarten. Do you get the picture? :)

So while we are playing, you are trying to explain to me that how you know that the cup in your hands is real.

So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?

And how do you know that a ghost is not real?


Please don’t go to the notion of thought being real, but their contents are not. Forget about it. Just be like a child….
If the question and resulting answer seems too simplistic, good. It's leading us where we need to go.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:05 am

Hi Vivien.
So, let’s start it. :)
Yep! (And I completely agree to everything you said about me above.) :D
Imagine, that you are a five-year old child, and I am your five-year old friend. We are playing together in the kindergarten. Do you get the picture? :)
I get the picture. :)

So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?
Look, look, look, I have a cup. Can you see it? It's a real cup. Can you see it? You can touch it if you want.

And how do you know that a ghost is not real?
There are no ghosts. Mom said that ghosts are not real.

But I have seen one. (For some reason I wanted to add this line.)



Well, that's it. Those would be my lines when I was 5.


-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:13 am

Hi Arc,
Look, look, look, I have a cup. Can you see it? It's a real cup. Can you see it? You can touch it if you want.
Let’s be a bit more precise.

So the cup can be seen, touched, even heard (when knocked), and maybe even smelled and tasted. Right?

So the cup is real because it can be EXPERIENCED with the five senses, right?
There are no ghosts. Mom said that ghosts are not real.
Yes, Mom said that :)

But how do you know that a ghost is not real?

So if you were afraid of the monster under your bed, how would you mother explain to you that the monster is not real, it doesn’t exist, so there is nothing to be afraid of?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:40 am

Hi Vivien.
Let’s be a bit more precise.

So the cup can be seen, touched, even heard (when knocked), and maybe even smelled and tasted. Right?
Yes. I would use only those things, because I wouldn't know about anything else. So right you are.
So the cup is real because it can be EXPERIENCED with the five senses, right?
Yes. That is correct.

But how do you know that a ghost is not real?
I don't. I just believe what my mom says and I try to think that they are not real.

So if you were afraid of the monster under your bed, how would you mother explain to you that the monster is not real, it doesn’t exist, so there is nothing to be afraid of?
She would show me/make me look that there is no monster under the bed. I would do it. Then she would say that monsters under the bed don't exist, because there is nothing under the bed. Then there would be nothing to be afraid of, because there is nothing under the bed.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:46 am

Hi Arc,
She would show me/make me look that there is no monster under the bed. I would do it. Then she would say that monsters under the bed don't exist, because there is nothing under the bed. Then there would be nothing to be afraid of, because there is nothing under the bed.
So the monster is not real, because it cannot be experienced (seen, heard, smelled, etc), right?

So what is the difference between the cup and the ‘monster under the bed’?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:01 am

Hi Vivien!
So the monster is not real, because it cannot be experienced (seen, heard, smelled, etc), right?
Exactly. There is no sign of the monster.
So what is the difference between the cup and the ‘monster under the bed’?
The cup can be experienced. Monster can't. The cup is there. Monster is not. Cup can be interpreted with senses, monster can not. That is the difference.

-Arc

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:21 am

Hi Arc,
Look at thoughts. Remember a cup in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the cup can be pointed to and verified.

Why doesn't that happen with thought?

Why can’t you touch a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you feel a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?


Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:
Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?

Please really-really examine these questions. Be very thorough. Don’t rush through this, since this is the BASIS of everything we are looking at here.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:44 pm

Hi Vivien,

sorry about that this took so long...
But you know the story already why this is so. Still sorry.
Look at thoughts. Remember a cup in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the cup can be pointed to and verified.

Why doesn't that happen with thought?
Thoughts can not be seen, heard, touched, smelled or tasted. You can't sense them.
Why can’t you touch a thought?
It is nowhere to be touched. I can't touch it. Thought is nowhere.
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Thought doesn't smell about anything. Thought can be about a smell, but it doesn't really smell about anything (the thought itself I mean).
Why can’t you feel a thought?
Same thing here, thought can remind me about a feeling something, but the thought itself doesn't feel anything. I can't feel a thought. It can not be felt like a cup.
Why can’t you smell a thought?
It just doesn't have a smell. I don't even know where I'm going to smell it?
Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?
Thought is just a thought. I can't point it because I don't know where the thought is. It's not like a cup. It doesn't exist in a same way. It can't be pointed, cause it's not "there".
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?
Yes. And that is exactly the thing that I tried to explain above. You just put it in an easier format. :)
But that is it. It's clear.

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Vivien
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:33 am

Hi Arc,
sorry about that this took so long...
But you know the story already why this is so. Still sorry.
It’s not a problem for me, but for you.
Do you do any looking on those days when you don’t reply?
How often do you look between two replies?
Thought is just a thought. I can't point it because I don't know where the thought is. It's not like a cup. It doesn't exist in a same way. It can't be pointed, cause it's not "there".
But WHY thoughts cannot be touched, seen, tasted, smelled?

Because thoughts are NOT REAL.

Let me repeat.

The content of thought is false. An illusion. Why? Well, try grabbing one. Trying touching it. Try holding onto the content of thought.
Is this clear totally clear?
V: IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?
A: Yes. And that is exactly the thing that I tried to explain above. You just put it in an easier format. :)
But that is it. It's clear.
You cut off the first part of my comments. It’s not just about that thoughts are imaginations, but about the difference between experience and thoughts.
So here is the question again:

Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:

Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING

Is this totally clear that there are ONLY two options? Experience (5 senses) or fantasy (thoughts)?

Does a third option exist?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Arcticshaman
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Re: Nothingness from the north.

Postby Arcticshaman » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:16 am

Hi Vivien!
It’s not a problem for me, but for you.
Do you do any looking on those days when you don’t reply?
How often do you look between two replies?
Well, I do it all the time. I always try to look at things like we have discussed. It's not possible all the time, because of the world we live in, but whenever I have my own time.

I never look my past replies. You asked me not to. But I still sometimes see what I answered before, after I answered again.

The content of thought is false. An illusion. Why? Well, try grabbing one. Trying touching it. Try holding onto the content of thought.
Is this clear totally clear?
Yes.
Is this totally clear that there are ONLY two options? Experience (5 senses) or fantasy (thoughts)?
Yes.
Does a third option exist?
Nope. Those are the two categories.


-Arc


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