Think i'm ready for the change

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Bharat
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Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Bharat » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:00 pm

Hi,

Any help is welcome - am in the UK, so Timezone wise, similiar would be better for forum dialogue ?

thanks

Bharat

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Eloratea
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Eloratea » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:20 pm

Hello Bharat,
you’re welcome.

You may share few words on your background that brought you here and your expectations from this.

Than we can start to talk about self.
What is self? When you say “I” what does it refer to?

There are no right or wrong answers here, but only useful will be answers from own direct experience, in own words with 100% honesty.
That’s how this works :)

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Bharat
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Bharat » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:39 pm

Hi Eloratea,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Some quick background, I guess I started searching further into the inner self after reading the Seth Books - back in 2004/05, then from there I came across EFT (emotional freedom technique), that I used initially and had a bad reaction to - some form dis-association from life - well it felt like that, sort of lost interest in life, work, relationships and felt like I was here but not present as such.

Any way that sort of fuzzyness continued till about late 2010, when I come across Abraham Hicks - meditations (mostly breathing technique) so I did that for a over 1 year , that got me back to may normal mental state, i.e. I felt more present in the now and more recently I found other mantra mediation technique , which has varying results, but generally keeps me calm in stressful situations. The odd experience I have had with using these technique is (these where temporary changes lasting hours or a few days) - include - total awareness in the now, increased self confidence , less stress generally & calmer.

I did self inquery once using "who am I" question, then I got stuck somewhere being the thought and thinker, but I didnt progress that any further for some reason.

Ok moving on, the self/I , generally i would identify with the whole me (i/self) physically -i.e my personality, but that would be broken down into my experiences in life, i.e emotional associations to experiences with an emotional attachment/judgement to a situation i.e good /bad/right /wrong (all beliefs systems)- most of this probably absorbed by me(!) as child from people around me.

Again , thanks for helping me out on this.

bharat

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Eloratea
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Eloratea » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:54 pm

Thanks for your introduction.
Yes, human life is very burdened with lots of unnecessary beliefs and identification. But, it doesn’t have to be so.

Now, this is something very simple and obvious, just when understood what it means to look into the direct experience, not to think about it.

So I ask you now to look in this very experience here and now, to describe it how it looks like and tell where is “you” in it? Is there any self and how it manifests?

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Bharat
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Bharat » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:09 pm

Here and now, I am sitting and typing this - almost automatically, without much attention being paid to the thoughts or actions, there isnt much attention being paid to the environment or the people around me (currently at work:) ).

Where is the I/me in this, at this very moment, it feels like the physically self is me, but when I question - what is me? - the self seems to be the collection of ideas/thoughts/physical/emotional - but I cannot pin point this self to a single label or to a single thought, but an overall collections of experiences and exposures ,that have built up a personality known as Bharat.

Maybe there is some fear to even realise that if I doesnt exists , what would I be, what would I loss, what point would exist to life.

Not sure If I have gone off track with the above sentence. I will try reply, when possible today.

Cheers

Bharat

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Bharat
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Bharat » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:00 pm

Just stepped out for lunch, weather is really nice/sunny, noticed that automatically my mood changed (i.e it feels nice/its warms/nice to be out) , i didnt do anything to change my mood, just walking outside in the sun, changed it, so not sure where that change of mode came from, not sure how the thoughts came about or even where the thoughts come from (way to much automatic behaviour).

I'm observing, not sure who the "I" is, I see people, feel the warmt of the sun/the air/ - notice that I am walking/seeing/hearing/ but none of this is delibrate and the interpretation of the information that is being feel so automatically , so habitual, but who's doing all the observing/seeing/interpretation - seems like the brain /thoughts, not sure where the thoughts come from, it just happens.

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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Eloratea » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:25 pm

Yes this was a good piece of observation :)

Now I reflect on previous post.
Here and now, I am sitting and typing this - almost automatically, without much attention being paid to the thoughts or actions, there isn’t much attention being paid to the environment or the people around me (currently at work:) ).
Is the „I“, self, sitting, or the body is sitting?
Are the fingers typing, or some hidden self types?
Where is the I/me in this, at this very moment, it feels like the physically self is me, but when I question - what is me? - the self seems to be the collection of ideas/thoughts/physical/emotional
Ok, this also comes from thinking. In direct experience is it possible to be aware of collection of ideas, thoughts,…or they come one by one in awareness? Though they might exist somewhere in unconscious together; but we don’t do assumptions here, just look at the normal conscious experience. :)
but I cannot pin point this self to a single label or to a single thought, but an overall collections of experiences and exposures ,that have built up a personality known as Bharat.

Isn’t “I” exactly that, a single thought, just without any real single, separate entity behind?
Assumption never questioned and when looked seems as vague conglomeration of thoughts and feelings, used to be identified with. But no solid unit. They are just like clouds passing by and temporarily covering the sky, the awareness.

There are unique expressions of life in every moment - with every human being, like with each snowflake.
But is the personality, character Bharat more real than any other imaginary character in the story?
Isn't it just a thought story, one way of interpretation of one unique experience?
Maybe there is some fear to even realize that if I doesn’t exists , what would I be, what would I loss, what point would exist to life.
I can understand that fear, but if there isn’t self, and never was, what can be lost? :)
What is there to be lost, except the belief? Like belief in santa, when you have seen that he doesn’t exist (and never did).
Isn’t better to live in greater alignment with reality?

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Bharat
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Bharat » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:10 pm

s the „I“, self, sitting, or the body is sitting?
Are the fingers typing, or some hidden self types?
When I focus on this , it seems like sitting , thought is flowing in response to the question one at a time. I cant see /feel some hidden self/entity that types.
Ok, this also comes from thinking. In direct experience is it possible to be aware of collection of ideas, thoughts,…or they come one by one in awareness? Though they might exist somewhere in unconscious together; but we don’t do assumptions here, just look at the normal conscious experience. :)
Thoughts come in one by one in relation my observation -i.e seeing/hearing/feeling/sensing. I respond according to the situation , thoughts arise depending on what is currently occurring or being observed - but this does not require me to delibrately think , thoughts happen.

Isn’t “I” exactly that, a single thought, just without any real single, separate entity behind?
Assumption never questioned and when looked seems as vague conglomeration of thoughts and feelings, used to be identified with. But no solid unit. They are just like clouds passing by and temporarily covering the sky, the awareness.

There are unique expressions of life in every moment - with every human being, like with each snowflake.
But is the personality, character Bharat more real than any other imaginary character in the story?
Isn't it just a thought story, one way of interpretation of one unique experience?
Yes I agree the assumptions are never questioned, taken to be real/reality . Is there a separate entity behind the thought - my beliefs make me think there is more to me then thougts/feelings/beliefs - but it (the entity) cant be seen due to the covering of beliefs that so dominent within these thoughts/feelings - so I'm making a separation of sorts - me/entity.

The personality Bharat feels real /as i live it, but it is a character that has been made from various experiences and seems real - though I intellectually thinks is it a imaginery character in this story - this is my interpretation of the character.
I can understand that fear, but if there isn’t self, and never was, what can be lost? :)
What is there to be lost, except the belief? Like belief in santa, when you have seen that he doesn’t exist (and never did).
Isn’t better to live in greater alignment with reality?
The beliefs are so strong about that it feels like I'm losing my identity, which even though it is made up of nothing more then experiences with judgements attached to it and arise as thoughts that make it seem that the character(I) is real and I am real , losing the beliefs would seem like deleting/erasing parts of myself! The fear isnt as strong as it was before, but there is some sense something that doesnt want to let go at this moment, or I need to think over this more and get to the root of the fear, even though its nothing more then another thought(powerful as it maybe).
The individual thoughts by itself ,isnt me, but when it arises with emotions/feeling attached to a thought, it gets tougher to think it as just another thought, even though thats what it is and go revert to my normal way of thinming/reacting/behaving in relation to the thought.

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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Eloratea » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:42 am

When I focus on this , it seems like sitting , thought is flowing in response to the question one at a time. I cant see /feel some hidden self/entity that types.
Yes, there is a perception of the objects, seeing, hearing, breathing - various processes just flowing.
Thoughts come in one by one in relation my observation -i.e seeing/hearing/feeling/sensing. I respond according to the situation , thoughts arise depending on what is currently occurring or being observed - but this does not require me to delibrately think , thoughts happen.
Good.
Yes I agree the assumptions are never questioned, taken to be real/reality . Is there a separate entity behind the thought - my beliefs make me think there is more to me then thougts/feelings/beliefs - but it (the entity) cant be seen due to the covering of beliefs that so dominent within these thoughts/feelings - so I'm making a separation of sorts - me/entity.
There is more. There is awareness in which everything arises. There is more to clouds – there is a sky.
But that feeling of aliveness, awareness is labeled as “I”. And if from it develops a belief that “I” is separate from whole life that is departing from reality.
Is it possible that something is different, separate from the rest of the life?
The personality Bharat feels real /as i live it, but it is a character that has been made from various experiences and seems real - though I intellectually thinks is it a imaginery character in this story - this is my interpretation of the character.
How about that life lives and animates every character? And “you” is just a thought, label, false identification with imagination?
The beliefs are so strong about that it feels like I'm losing my identity, which even though it is made up of nothing more then experiences with judgements attached to it and arise as thoughts that make it seem that the character(I) is real and I am real , losing the beliefs would seem like deleting/erasing parts of myself!
Yes, that is how it needs to be. That is how this illusion works and makes it to appear real. It is a great mechanism, covering very simple and obvious truth.
The fear isnt as strong as it was before, but there is some sense something that doesnt want to let go at this moment, or I need to think over this more and get to the root of the fear, even though its nothing more then another thought(powerful as it maybe).
Fear itself is a great security mechanism, gate keeper. It works perfectly.
Just stay with it, appreciate its presence, see how it affects the body and ask what it really hides? Must be something important.
The individual thoughts by itself ,isnt me, but when it arises with emotions/feeling attached to a thought, it gets tougher to think it as just another thought, even though thats what it is and go revert to my normal way of thinming/reacting/behaving in relation to the thought.
Yes, it is again exactly the way how it works. Thoughts stirring the body chemistry and making it feel soo real. Appreciate that great play and feel the feelings that arise. See how the thoughts add up to the sensation, and what happens if you know that thoughts are just thoughts; Temporary part of experience, not all that is. And feel the sensation without telling the story about it.
Describe what happens.

What would be “your” normal way of thinking, when there is no you, just thought patterns, conditionings? There is no one to revert to anything.
Just thinking labeled as this or that kind of thinking.
Circling in loops because it is fed by the different beliefs and one core belief that there is someone doing the thinking.

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Bharat
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Bharat » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:46 am

I'll read through the above shortly and focus more on your feedback and reply soon.
Just wanted to added something from last night,as I continued to try to be awareness of myself/actions and relate them to the thoughts that were coming up when I was at home. So i kept asking the question where is the self/I in the thought, who am I - doing the thinking , think I carried on like this for 2 -3 couples, then went to bed.

Had a strange experience/sensation whislt thinking in bed about this. I have sensation of something similiar to pins and needles, but all over my body - it was a pleasant experience - seemed like a relaxing /calm feeling, but the I noticed the body was slightly tense. Any this lasted for about 1 hr or 1.5hr and I could clear see my believes as thoughts that were running through the body/mind - as dark fog/vapour, moving from inside the body (the body was percieved as hollow/space) and moving up and through the head - it felt like a mild tranec state.

Then I come of out that trance like state and got a dose of reality - like being bitch slapped back into real awareness - the mode changed from positive to negative / sad/depressing for about 20 - 30 mins, so I concentrated ont he feelings again - it is a thought / not real /not the truth or not even valid - that was the interpretation I gave of the feeling/thoughts - this reverted the mood back to what I experience previously 2 hrs early slight trance light.

Then I think I fell asleep , then walk up - feeling shattered, like I had no sleep, the brain felt like it was swollen/ eyes dark circles - felt like I had been deprived off sleep for days. I had this deprivation of sleep /brain feeling swollon/pumped full of air - previously - when I did EFT, but the trance state was not something I experienced with EFT.

This morning I feel as normal, as the day before prior to starting this search. I reply back soon.

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Bharat
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Bharat » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:00 pm

Yes, there is a perception of the objects, seeing, hearing, breathing - various processes just flowing.

Yes, non-stop , dont notice half of these ,as it so automatically and awareness is not required to use the functions.
There is more. There is awareness in which everything arises. There is more to clouds – there is a sky.
But that feeling of aliveness, awareness is labeled as “I”. And if from it develops a belief that “I” is separate from whole life that is departing from reality.

Is it possible that something is different, separate from the rest of the life?
Now thinking about this and noticing my thoughts/feelings more and not being able to locate I/self within the thoughts, the line is more blurred about separateness, as I cant locate a real I anywhere within my thoughts. Though I do continue feeling like an I, when I do not pay attention to what I doing/see/feeling and the thoughts that arise.
How about that life lives and animates every character? And “you” is just a thought, label, false identification with imagination?
I am seeing this more and more , as I keep awareness of my thoughts arising and questions, where is the I/self within the thoughts / feelings - but I have to pay attention, otherwise I go back to the habitual way of thinking - without any real awareness.

Yes, that is how it needs to be. That is how this illusion works and makes it to appear real. It is a great mechanism, covering very simple and obvious truth.
Fear itself is a great security mechanism, gate keeper. It works perfectly.
Just stay with it, appreciate its presence, see how it affects the body and ask what it really hides? Must be something important.
I need to pay attention to this more when it does arise, will keep you updated, when I notice the fear again.
Yes, it is again exactly the way how it works. Thoughts stirring the body chemistry and making it feel soo real. Appreciate that great play and feel the feelings that arise. See how the thoughts add up to the sensation, and what happens if you know that thoughts are just thoughts; Temporary part of experience, not all that is. And feel the sensation without telling the story about it.
Describe what happens.
Yes I think this is what I was experiencing last night, when I look at each thought/sensation that was popping into my head and I could evaluate the thought/feeling, without having to feel the related emotion, it was just a thought / just a sensation - no need to be judgemental about either.
What would be “your” normal way of thinking, when there is no you, just thought patterns, conditionings? There is no one to revert to anything.
Just thinking labeled as this or that kind of thinking.
Circling in loops because it is fed by the different beliefs and one core belief that there is someone doing the thinking.
Yes agree, the core belief of a self is binding every thought/feeling belief to the the imagined self - I can see/this belief abit better today , see how it works in relation to all my thoughts, even though I still cant, seem to find a I/self in the thought - there is something lingering on that thinks it is a self - more thoughts.

I will continue with the awareness and feedback, many thanks on great feedback you have provided so far.

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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Eloratea » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:19 pm

Though I do continue feeling like an I, when I do not pay attention to what I doing/see/feeling and the thoughts that arise.
Sense of self my stay as well upon clear seeing that there isn't separate self.
I am seeing this more and more , as I keep awareness of my thoughts arising and questions, where is the I/self within the thoughts / feelings - but I have to pay attention, otherwise I go back to the habitual way of thinking - without any real awareness.
Let's look at this from a bit different perspective. Awareness is there all the time just clouded with thoughts. It is prior to the thoughts. But, yes you have to question the thoughts if they are real and necessary and useful…it is a constant practice.
Yes agree, the core belief of a self is binding every thought/feeling belief to the the imagined self - I can see/this belief abit better today , see how it works in relation to all my thoughts, even though I still cant, seem to find a I/self in the thought - there is something lingering on that thinks it is a self - more thoughts.
If self is just a thought „I“ - can that one thought think other thoughts? :) or they are all in essence equal? Thoughts.

I will continue with the awareness and feedback, many thanks on great feedback you have provided so far.
You' re welcome.
Stay well!

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Bharat
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Bharat » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:53 pm

Seems like the I that doesnt exist is on hamster wheel, going round in cirlces, from thoughts to feelings and back, cant find an I or self, just more thoughts and feeeling ,had a temporary feeling of awareness - awareness that just is, thoughts just are, feelings just are, mind/body just is, but then awareness of everything just is , no label , no judgement and no sense of separation between anything(body/mind/self/room/hous/trees,sky,etc), then I got stuck and come back to thoughts/ideas/concept.

Seems frustrating, am now off to sleep on this more.

Cheers

B

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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Eloratea » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:25 am

Is there "I" to got stuck?
Try to see what really happens.
It is just another thought – I got stuck.
Something like one cloud telling the other – we lost sky again. :)

It is good to spend some time outside and watch how everything is happening effortlessly on its own.
The sunlight is happening, the seeing is happening, the hearing is happening, breathing is happening, movements of the hands and legs are happening.

These words are also happening.
Frustration is also happening, or not :)

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Bharat
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Re: Think i'm ready for the change

Postby Bharat » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:57 am

Sorry , been thinking alot around the thoughts and beliefs and self/I , so far going round in circles with the thoughts/belief bit.

Sometimes I feel some awareness - no separation , its brief and then it backs to the thoughts and trying to find something that doesnt exist - the self. Who is looking,seeing,hearing,touching,feeling,talking -words - it just happens without thought.

Thought about myself as a kid/baby, there was no or limited thought involved, no ideas of language, just a body/mind (but no real thoughts about this)- maybe no or limited beliefs, certainly no sense of an "i" or self at that age.

I will continue thinking/focusing on the daily interactions and keep you posted.


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