Seeing that frees

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Tue May 12, 2020 1:22 am

Do those sensations at the seeming center are the experiencer?
No, it can just be assumed that, when looking directly there an experiencer can't be found.
Does life happening to those sensations?
'
No, life is just happening, not to any specific sensations.
Do those sensations at the seeming center are looking and seeing the object?
No, but there is seeing happening.
Where does seeing happen FROM? Find the exact location.
Seeing is just happening. I can conceptualize it and say the eyes or body, but from direct experience seeing is happening, not from or to some place, just seeing happening.
Is seeing a doing or a happening?
Happening, there is no doing seeing, it's completely effortless.
Is there a seer, or there is only what is seen?
Only the seen, the body or "me" is just a concept.
What is hearing the sound exactly?
There is no thing hearing, just hearing arising.
The sensations labelled ‘head’ or the sensations labelled ‘ears’ hearing it?
No.
Can a sensation hear?
No
Is hearing a doing or a happening?
It's a happening, no effort involved, just like seeing.
Is there a hearer, or there is only the sound?
Just the sound.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Tue May 12, 2020 4:17 am

Hi Echoz,
It's a happening, no effort involved, just like seeing.
And what about thinking? Is a doing? Or a happening?

Is there effort in thinking? Or thoughts just appear totally effortlessly?

Can the Echoz character control what thought is going to appear next?
Does the me-character thinking thoughts?


Notice that thoughts are almost constantly labelling and commenting on what is happening. Attention goes to an object, and thought labels it ‘cup’. And then interpret it from the perspective of the me-character: “I shouldn’t drink that much coffee”. Then attention goes to something else, and the thought narration follows. Can you see this?

What is directing thoughts to narrate experience?
Where is the narrator?


Sit for at least 15 minutes and observe the labelling and narrating process.

Also, try to catch this labelling/narrating process in the midst of everyday life.
Please let me know what you find.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Thu May 14, 2020 1:36 am

And what about thinking? Is a doing? Or a happening?
It's a happening.
Is there effort in thinking? Or thoughts just appear totally effortlessly?
Thoughts just appear without effort.
Can the Echoz character control what thought is going to appear next?
No, thoughts just flow, no control over them.
Does the me-character thinking thoughts?
No, thoughts are just arising and passing away. No character thinking them.
Notice that thoughts are almost constantly labelling and commenting on what is happening. Attention goes to an object, and thought labels it ‘cup’. And then interpret it from the perspective of the me-character: “I shouldn’t drink that much coffee”. Then attention goes to something else, and the thought narration follows. Can you see this?
Yes, it's constant.
What is directing thoughts to narrate experience?
Thoughts just narrate, there is no director.
Where is the narrator?
I can't find it. I keep looking and it's not seen.
Also, try to catch this labelling/narrating process in the midst of everyday life.
Please let me know what you find.
It's just a constant process. There is almost always labeling or narrating occurring, sometimes the process is seen clearly other times it's not seen.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Thu May 14, 2020 4:01 am

Hi Echoz,

Thank you for your replies. You are giving the ‘right’ answers, but I’m not sure if your answers are coming from actually seeing or from intellectual understanding.

In order to be able to help you, I need information what is happening in your everyday life.

Please write to me a LONG paragraph where are you at the moment, if you still BELIEVE that there is a separate self, a person living its life, who make decisions, who thinks, who feels, who experiences.

Please write to me with as much detail as possible.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sat May 16, 2020 1:26 am

Hey Viven,

Will write this up tomorrow, didn't get to it yet.

Thanks!

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sat May 16, 2020 1:31 am

All right, have a nice day :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sun May 17, 2020 1:09 am

Viven,

Thoughts are still believed at times. When I consciously look at thoughts it's clear they are just empty of any solidity or self, but still some thoughts are just believed to be real. I keep looking again and again at how they function throughout my day, but the seeing doesn't stick.

I keep looking at sensations that arise during the day. Often these sensations are labeled as "body", but looking directly at the sensation reveals it as simply a sensation with no need for a body.

I look for the doer of life, the thing that is "in control" doing all actions. When looking directly at one thing it's never found, but when doing things like spending time with family there still seems to be a self doing it. I try to look at these times and at those times I can't find anything either, but then it's back to "normal" after the looking is finished.

Thanks for all the help so far!

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sun May 17, 2020 1:42 am

Hi Echoz,
I try to look at these times and at those times I can't find anything either, but then it's back to "normal" after the looking is finished.
Do you expect that seeing through the self means seeing it 24/7? No matter what happens, it should be always seen to be an illusion?
Thoughts are still believed at times.

Believed by what/who? What is doing the believing?

If there is no self, then what is it that is believing in thoughts?

Is it possible that the assumed is still there that there is some sort of entity outside of thoughts, whom thoughts are happening to, and can believe in them?

Is there really believing happening, or there are only thoughts ABOUT believing in thoughts?
I keep looking again and again at how they function throughout my day, but the seeing doesn't stick.
And where should the result of looking should stick to?
What would the glue made of?

Is there an entity who finally should realize that that there is no self, and this seeing should stick to it?
If not, does sticking or not sticking make any sense at all?


Please be very carefully not to reply by thinking these questions through, but really investigate what is actually happening in reality.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Mon May 18, 2020 4:06 am

Do you expect that seeing through the self means seeing it 24/7? No matter what happens, it should be always seen to be an illusion?
There was an expectation that the nature of self would be seen consistently, but looking at that expectation it's just another thought.

Believed by what/who? What is doing the believing?
I can't find anything doing the believing. Thoughts are just taken as real, but I can't find anything to take these thoughts are real. But really thoughts are just happening and don't need any more analysis on top of them.
If there is no self, then what is it that is believing in thoughts?
There's nothing there to believe in the thoughts.
Is it possible that the assumed is still there that there is some sort of entity outside of thoughts, whom thoughts are happening to, and can believe in them?
I can't find some sort of entity outside of thought.
Is there really believing happening, or there are only thoughts ABOUT believing in thoughts?
I can't really find a difference between belief and thoughts, it just seems like beliefs are a thought in the first place.
And where should the result of looking should stick to?
There's nothing there for it to stick to.
What would the glue made of?
There's no glue to be had.
Is there an entity who finally should realize that that there is no self, and this seeing should stick to it?
I can't find some entity to realize no self or anything that could stick to it.
If not, does sticking or not sticking make any sense at all?
No, not at all. There's nothing there to hold onto this in the first place.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Mon May 18, 2020 4:30 am

Hi Echoz,

Let’s go a step further.
I can't find some entity to realize no self or anything that could stick to it.
What is it that is searching for an entity?
What is doing the looking?

And what is it that notices that there is nothing there?

Has it been really seen that there is no self anywhere in any shape or form?
Is there any doubt? Any at all?
V: Do you expect that seeing through the self means seeing it 24/7? No matter what happens, it should be always seen to be an illusion?
E: There was an expectation that the nature of self would be seen consistently, but looking at that expectation it's just another thought.
Once no-self is seen, it can't be unseen. And yet, the illusion persists. Expect that. The illusion not quite persistent, you see. And neither is the seeing through.

So the question is:

Who or what sees through the illusion?

I would actually like you to really look into this, once and for all.
Since you are giving the ‘right’ answers, but it seems that you don’t really believe or see your ‘right answers’.
So either you are not really seeing it, or you are not accepting what you are actually seeing.
Please, don’t just say that you cannot find anything, and there is nothing there.
But really dig deep to the roots.

Do you still BELIEVE that there is a self? – here I’m not asking what you see, but what you believe.

If you can say with 100% certainty that this belief has fallen away (not the illusion or seeing it as an illusion, but the belief in a self, regardless of seeing it persistently or not), then what is missing?

What else is there to see?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Fri May 22, 2020 11:37 pm

Hey Viven,

Sorry about not writing, been taking my time on this one.
What is doing the looking?
I can't find anything doing the looking, but the looking is happening in direct experience.
And what is it that notices that there is nothing there?
Noticing just happens. I can't say there is something DOING it.
Has it been really seen that there is no self anywhere in any shape or form?
When the questions are looked at I can't find anything, but there just doesn't seem to be some belief in what's being seen.
Is there any doubt? Any at all?
Yes there is some. I keep looking and looking and can't really see the self for what it is. There's just no depth. Then doubts come up like "maybe I should meditate" etc. I look at these thoughts and doubts when they arise, yet it isn't seen.
Who or what sees through the illusion?
There's nothing there to see through the illusion, just what's happening in direct experience.
Do you still BELIEVE that there is a self? – here I’m not asking what you see, but what you believe.
There is not some unshakable belief that there is no-self here, so I would say yes. Every time I look I can't find some entity doing it, yet it's just not seen as truth or believed.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sat May 23, 2020 1:30 am

Hi Echoz,
Yes there is some. I keep looking and looking and can't really see the self for what it is.
And how do you know that you can’t see the self for what it is? Can a non-existent self be seen?
How do you want to see something that doesn’t exist?


If I say to you that there is a living pink unicorn in your room, how do you know that it’s not true? How do you know that the pink unicorn in your room doesn’t exist?
There's just no depth.
No depth of what?

You are expecting to see something more than the simplicity of there being no self, so we have to examine your expectations.

Please examine your expectations very carefully. What is it exactly you are expecting to see?
How do you expect to see the self for what it is?

I look at these thoughts and doubts when they arise, yet it isn't seen.
Are you saying that it isn’t seen that no matter where and how much you look, there is no self anywhere?
There is not some unshakable belief that there is no-self here, so I would say yes.
OK. This is one of your expectations about this.

Do you expect to BELIEVE that there is no self, or is it enough to see clearly that it's nothing else than a concept, an idea?

Seeing no self is not a belief. Belief is something that is taken for truth without any evidence.
Truth doesn’t need to be believed. Truth is truth regardless it’s believed or not.
Every time I look I can't find some entity doing it, yet it's just not seen as truth or believed.
You say that ‘no self is not seen as truth’. – Then what is the truth?

Look for the truth, the facts of reality.

Is the existence of a separate self a fact of reality, the truth?
What other truth can be than either the existence of a self, or a non-existence of a separate self?


Let’s explore what actually is. What is actually happening without thoughts and imagination.

Please be careful not to rush through the questions, and just quickly agree or disagree with them, but actually investigate them deeply.

When a sensation is present, it’s here, it’s real, it’s happening, right?
When there is a sound, then it’s real and it’s happening, isn’t?
And what about tastes and smells? When they are happening, they are undeniably there? Would you agree?
And what about colors and shapes? They are happening too, right?


So experience IS. Experience is what actually IS. Experience is all that IS.

Is there anything else that you can be sure that it’s real and it’s happening other than experience here right now, in this very moment?

Is there anything else than experience?
Is the body the experiencer or the body IS experience?
Is there someone experiences the the body, or the body appears AS experience?
Is there someone inside the head expereincing the world 'out there', or is the inside of the head IS the experience of plain sensations?

What is it that you can be absolutely sure of? What is it that you can be sure that IS other than experience?
What are the FACTS of reality?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Wed May 27, 2020 3:56 am

And how do you know that you can’t see the self for what it is? Can a non-existent self be seen?
No, can't see something that isn't there.
How do you want to see something that doesn’t exist?
I can't see something that isn't.
If I say to you that there is a living pink unicorn in your room, how do you know that it’s not true? How do you know that the pink unicorn in your room doesn’t exist?
I just look in the room.
Please examine your expectations very carefully. What is it exactly you are expecting to see?
Seeing thoughts as less sticky or true, thoughts will still happen, but just won't be seen as so important.
How do you expect to see the self for what it is?
By looking and just recognizing there was no self in the first place.
Are you saying that it isn’t seen that no matter where and how much you look, there is no self anywhere?
I can never find the self when I look.
Do you expect to BELIEVE that there is no self, or is it enough to see clearly that it's nothing else than a concept, an idea?
I assumed once the self was seen, the belief in the self would drop away although the so called self would still do what it does.
You say that ‘no self is not seen as truth’. – Then what is the truth?
Just direct experience.
Is the existence of a separate self a fact of reality, the truth?
No, when looking at direct experience it's just not there.
What other truth can be than either the existence of a self, or a non-existence of a separate self?
Just what's happening.
When a sensation is present, it’s here, it’s real, it’s happening, right?
Yes, it's the direct experience happening right now.
When there is a sound, then it’s real and it’s happening, isn’t?
Yes.
And what about tastes and smells? When they are happening, they are undeniably there? Would you agree?
Yes.
And what about colors and shapes? They are happening too, right?
Yes.

Is there anything else that you can be sure that it’s real and it’s happening other than experience here right now, in this very moment?
No, the only thing that I can be sure of is right now. Everything else is imagined/thought up.
Is there anything else than experience?
No.
Is the body the experiencer or the body IS experience?
The body is the experience.
Is there someone experiences the the body, or the body appears AS experience?
There is no one to experience the body, experiences are just happening.
Is there someone inside the head expereincing the world 'out there', or is the inside of the head IS the experience of plain sensations?
There's no one inside the head. The head is just like the body it is experience happening.
What is it that you can be absolutely sure of? What is it that you can be sure that IS other than experience?
The only thing I can be sure of is what's happening this very moment, everything else is in thought and imagination. The direct experience is all that I can be sure of.
What are the FACTS of reality?
This is happening. Just direct experience, sensations in the hands, sitting, seeing the screen. It's the only thing I can be seen as reality, everything else is just imagined.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Wed May 27, 2020 5:05 am

Hi Echoz,

Let’s forget about the notion of direct experience for a while. We are going to investigate the self from a different angle.

When not looking and just living your everyday life, does it feel or seem like that you are Echoz?
Does it feel like that Echoz is the subject of experience?
Does it seem like that Echoz is thinking thoughts and making decision?

Unfortunately, it’s not enough to see that Echoz is just a concept, if in everyday life it’s still believed that there is Echoz living life.

So the following exercise is NOT something to do in sitting while doing nothing else. No. You are already good at that. Rather, use the following investigation in the MIDST of your EVERYDAY life, when it FEELS like that you are Echoz. All right?

What is the FELT sense of Echoz?

When it seems and feels like that “I am Echoz thinking, feeling and making decisions”, in that very moment, focus on that feeling.

How does it FEEL like to be me?
What kind of feeling is that?
What is the feeling of me?

What is the feeling of me thinking?
What is the feeling of me making decisions?
What is the feeling of me feeling sensations and emotions?


Focus on this feeling or sense of me, and get to know it as much as you can.

Observe, in what situations the ‘sense or feeling of me’ shows up?
And when it shows up, where does it show up, and how does it feel?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:30 am

Hey Viven,

Sorry for not responding lately, I'm ready to get this ball rolling consistently again.
When not looking and just living your everyday life, does it feel or seem like that you are Echoz?
Yes.
Does it feel like that Echoz is the subject of experience?
Yes, it feels like I am doing things and things are happening to me.
Does it seem like that Echoz is thinking thoughts and making decision?
Yes.
What is the FELT sense of Echoz?
It feels like a tense, constricted feeling in face/head area. A lot of attention and effort seems to into thoughts/imagining.
What kind of feeling is that?
A physical sensation and almost like an effort or trying.
What is the feeling of me?
It's just another sensation.
What is the feeling of me thinking?
It's like a focus of attention is on thinking and other sensations seem to go a little into the background.
What is the feeling of me making decisions?
This is the same a thought for me.
What is the feeling of me feeling sensations and emotions?
Sometimes sensations and emotions will come and go, other times when they occur it leads to attention and thoughts about these sensations and emotions.
Observe, in what situations the ‘sense or feeling of me’ shows up?
It shows up a lot when I am around other people.
And when it shows up, where does it show up, and how does it feel?
Shows up in my head and it just feels like I'm my own person centered in this body.


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest