Seeing that frees

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sat May 02, 2020 3:43 am

Hi Echoz,
I can't find anything actively doing the thinking, it's all just appearing in this.
You say: “it’s all just appearing in this” – appearing in WHAT?
Is there anything that things appear IN?
Nothing sees it, there is just an awareness always present. Always this sense of being aware/alive.
OK, maybe this is the missing link.

How does this ‘SENSE of being aware/alive’ appear?

How does this SENSE experienced?
Is it a sensation? Color? Taste? Smell? Sound? Thought? Imagination?
there is just an awareness always present
Is there an independent awareness/witnessing waiting in the background for things to appear in?

Is there an awareness which is something special, apart from the five senses?
Is awareness something independent of and prior to sense perception?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sun May 03, 2020 1:33 am

Sorry, I didn't get to this until late.

I'll write back tomorrow.

Thanks!

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sun May 03, 2020 3:39 am

All right, have a nice day :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Mon May 04, 2020 1:27 am

You say: “it’s all just appearing in this” – appearing in WHAT?
In this awareness or whatever it is that's aware.
Is there anything that things appear IN?
Things just seem to go in and out of awareness.
How does this ‘SENSE of being aware/alive’ appear?
It's not even that it appears or disappears, it always seem to be present, just sometimes it's not noticed or recognized.
How does this SENSE experienced?
It's hard to explain... almost like a relaxing, but not of the physical body, a relaxing of attention or focus maybe.
Is it a sensation? Color? Taste? Smell? Sound? Thought? Imagination?
It is none of those things.
Is there an independent awareness/witnessing waiting in the background for things to appear in?
It doesn't seem independent at all, really the opposite, it arising as and with everything else.
Is there an awareness which is something special, apart from the five senses?
No, it seems to arise with or as the five senses.
Is awareness something independent of and prior to sense perception?
No, it seems to be that raw, direct experience.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Mon May 04, 2020 5:36 am

Hi Echoz,

I’m going to give you lots of questions this time. Please be very thorough with your investigation. Pay particular attention not to think and analyse them, but actually investigate the raw, unadulterated experience.

Since I’ve given you lots of questions, you might need more than a day to investigate. That’s all right. Be through, rather than rushing through the questions. Look at each questions repeatedly before replying.

So at first, I would like to ask you to read your whole previous post.

At the beginning you say “In this awareness or whatever it is that's aware.”, but your last comment is “No, it seems to be that raw, direct experience.” – Can you see the contraction?

I know the concept of awareness is a very popular assumption/belief in spiritual circles, but it’s very important to put aside all learned knowledge and concepts, everything that others might have said, and only investigate your immediate experience.
V: You say: “it’s all just appearing in this” – appearing in WHAT?
E: In this awareness or whatever it is that's aware.
HOW do you know that ‘all just appearing awareness’?
HOW do you know that there is a subject, that is aware?

What is the experiential proof for this?

Where does this information coming from? Is it coming from looking at the raw, unadulterated experience? Or is it a learned concept?
V: Is there anything that things appear IN?
E: Things just seem to go in and out of awareness.
A SEEMING thing is not a real thig. When something ‘seems like’ – then it’s a call for investigation.

HOW do you know that things go in and out of awareness?
Is this something that actually can be observed, or is it just an uninvestigated assumption?
V: How does this ‘SENSE of being aware/alive’ appear?
E: It's not even that it appears or disappears, it always seem to be present, just sometimes it's not noticed or recognized.
You are not looking. This is an intellectual reasoning.
Do you see that this is just a justification for a learned idea of an ‘awareness’?
V: How does this SENSE experienced?
E: It's hard to explain... almost like a relaxing, but not of the physical body, a relaxing of attention or focus maybe.
Maybe? – is a guessing.
Guessing = thinking

Is it possible that you’ve adopted the idea of awareness (from others) and now you are trying to justify it with reasoning?
V: Is it a sensation? Color? Taste? Smell? Sound? Thought? Imagination?
E: It is none of those things.
Actually, it is two of those things.

When you look for an awareness and it SEEMS that things coming in out of awareness, is there a visual thought of showing some sort of space or blackness or wasteness and things appearing in that image of space/wasteness?

Can you find an actual, real, stand-alone awareness outside of verbal and visual thoughts

Does the word ‘awareness’ point to anything in reality?
Or awareness exist only as a concept, as a thought-content?


It’s very important that you put aside all learned knowledge, and closely investigate experience/what is.
It doesn't seem independent at all, really the opposite, it arising as and with everything else.
You are still talking as if there were two things there, just happening simultaneously, but is this so?

Close your eyes, and investigate:

Is there a thought + awareness?
Is there a dividing line between a thought and awareness?
Where does the thought end and the awareness starts?

If you say that there is no dividing line and no ends, then HOW do you know that 2 things arising together, a thought + an awareness?
Is this really the case?

If awareness cannot be perceived in any way, then HOW do you know that there are two things arising?
V: Is there an awareness which is something special, apart from the five senses?
E: No, it seems to arise with or as the five senses.
But HOW do you know this?

At the beginning of you post you said that things arise IN awareness, but now you say that awareness appears simultaneously with the 5 senses. Which one is true? The first, second, none?


Pay attention to a sensation of the hands.
The sensation is there.
Is the sensation INSIDE an awareness?
If yes, how does this awareness looks like? How big it is? What its shape? Color?
If you say there is none of those, then HOW do you know that this is the case?

How do you recognise awareness if you cannot see it, cannot touch it, cannot smell it, cannot taste it, cannot hear it?
You can only thing of it, and imagine of it, but not actually experience of it, can’t you?


And if you say that the sensation is arise WITH awareness, then my questions the same.
Do you see two things arising?
If yes, please describe the ‘awareness’ part of the arising.
How do you recognize the ‘awareness’ part if it cannot be seen, touched, felt, smelt, tasted, heard? How exactly?
V: Is awareness something independent of and prior to sense perception?
E: No, it seems to be that raw, direct experience.
Do you see that you are talking about a SEEMING thing? A seeming thing is not a real thing.

So now, you are talking about a third option.

First, you said that things arise IN awareness.
Second, that things arise WITH awareness.
And now the third version is that direct experience IS awareness.
Which one is true? First, second, third, or none?

Do you see that you are trying to justify the notion of awareness by thinking and speculating?

If you say that it’s the third option, that awareness IS the direct experience, then again, HOW do you know that?


Listen to the sounds.
HOW do you know that this sound IS awareness?
The sound is there, it’s happening, but WHERE is awareness?
Is there an ACTUAL awareness, or just the notion/assumption/thought of awareness?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Wed May 06, 2020 12:52 am

HOW do you know that ‘all just appearing awareness’?
It's a concept, "It's just appearing" would be more accurate.
HOW do you know that there is a subject, that is aware?
That was in thought, there is the the arising of sensation.
What is the experiential proof for this?
There is none, it's just a concept in thought.
Where does this information coming from? Is it coming from looking at the raw, unadulterated experience? Or is it a learned concept?
It's a concept.
HOW do you know that things go in and out of awareness?
This arise and pass away in direct experience, no concept of awareness is needed.
Is this something that actually can be observed, or is it just an uninvestigated assumption?
It's just an assumption.
Is it possible that you’ve adopted the idea of awareness (from others) and now you are trying to justify it with reasoning?
Absolutely.
When you look for an awareness and it SEEMS that things coming in out of awareness, is there a visual thought of showing some sort of space or blackness or wasteness and things appearing in that image of space/wasteness?
When looking for this awareness thoughts/imagining do occur, so yes.
Can you find an actual, real, stand-alone awareness outside of verbal and visual thoughts
No, every time I look a subtle thought or imagining shows ups. Can't find any awareness outside of it.
Does the word ‘awareness’ point to anything in reality?
Awareness is just a concept, I can't find it in direct experience.
Or awareness exist only as a concept, as a thought-content?
It's a concept.
Is there a thought + awareness?
Just the thought arising/passing away.
Is there a dividing line between a thought and awareness?
No I can't find this "awareness" it's just a thought coming and going.
Where does the thought end and the awareness starts?
A thought just happens until it doesn't, no need to add anything else on top of it.
If you say that there is no dividing line and no ends, then HOW do you know that 2 things arising together, a thought + an awareness?
Is this really the case?
No, this is not the case. There's just the direct experience, no need for more.

If awareness cannot be perceived in any way, then HOW do you know that there are two things arising?
It was just a learned concept/assumption.
But HOW do you know this?
I don't it was an assumption. There is just the arising and passing away, not something along with it. Just the direct experience.
At the beginning of you post you said that things arise IN awareness, but now you say that awareness appears simultaneously with the 5 senses. Which one is true? The first, second, none?
The "awareness" isn't needed in the equation.
Pay attention to a sensation of the hands.
The sensation is there.
Is the sensation INSIDE an awareness?
There is just a sensation, no inside anything. I closed my eyes and did this and sensations were the only real thing about the hand. An image popped up, but it's not the direct experience. Only this that was real was the sensation of my finger tips rubbing my table, don't even need the rest of the hand.
If you say there is none of those, then HOW do you know that this is the case?
By looking at direct experience.
How do you recognise awareness if you cannot see it, cannot touch it, cannot smell it, cannot taste it, cannot hear it?
You can't.
You can only thing of it, and imagine of it, but not actually experience of it, can’t you?
Yes.

And if you say that the sensation is arise WITH awareness, then my questions the same.
Do you see two things arising?
No, just the immediate experience.
How do you recognize the ‘awareness’ part if it cannot be seen, touched, felt, smelt, tasted, heard? How exactly?
I can't find it, it's just imagined.
Do you see that you are talking about a SEEMING thing? A seeming thing is not a real thing.
So now, you are talking about a third option.Which one is true? First, second, third, or none?
None, there' s nothing there except the direct experience, no need to make it more complicated with concepts.
Do you see that you are trying to justify the notion of awareness by thinking and speculating?
Yeah, it's pretty clear now.
Listen to the sounds.
HOW do you know that this sound IS awareness?
I don't it's just being heard.
The sound is there, it’s happening, but WHERE is awareness?
It's not found.
Is there an ACTUAL awareness, or just the notion/assumption/thought of awareness?
It's just an assumption.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Wed May 06, 2020 3:53 am

Hi Echoz,
V: Do you see that you are trying to justify the notion of awareness by thinking and speculating?
E: Yeah, it's pretty clear now.
Could you tell how much of this is an intellectual understanding, and how much is an experiential seeing? 50/50? Less? More?

Previously you wrote:
Nothing sees it, there is just an awareness always present. Always this sense of being aware/alive.
So if you look at what is happening right here, right now, what would you say?
Is there an awareness always present?
Always this sense of being aware/alive.
Is this ‘sense of being aware’ is still there?
If yes, how does it sensed/felt?

Which feeling/sensation is the ‘sense of being aware’?

And which feeling/sensation is the ‘sense of being alive’?

How ‘being alive’ is experienced?
Is it a color? Sound? Smell? Taste? Sensation? Thought? Or what exactly?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Thu May 07, 2020 1:11 am

Could you tell how much of this is an intellectual understanding, and how much is an experiential seeing? 50/50? Less? More?
It's pretty clear here that awareness is just a concept created by thought, it's just so common in literature about "this" that I felt like it needed to fit in somewhere. Kind of hard to gauge this on a scale, but I'll go with 70% experiential, 30% intellectual.
So if you look at what is happening right here, right now, what would you say?
There are things arising like sounds, thoughts, feelings etc.
Is there an awareness always present?
There is always something arising in direct experience.
Is this ‘sense of being aware’ is still there?
Yeah, it comes and goes.
If yes, how does it sensed/felt?
It's a sensation in my chest and stomach area usually, sometimes it feels like it's some interior boundary of the body.
Which feeling/sensation is the ‘sense of being aware’?

And which feeling/sensation is the ‘sense of being alive’?
I was just using these as synonyms, so no difference between the two, sorry for the confusion need to make sure to be accurate.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Thu May 07, 2020 1:55 am

Hi Echoz,
It's pretty clear here that awareness is just a concept created by thought, it's just so common in literature about "this" that I felt like it needed to fit in somewhere
Thank you for clarifying this. Yes, it’s a very common spiritual concept, but when it’s investigated, it cannot stand up scrutiny. It's very good that you can see this :)
I was just using these as synonyms, so no difference between the two, sorry for the confusion need to make sure to be accurate.
Yes. Accuracy matters. Why? Because if we pay attention to thought-content instead of the facts of reality, then it’s very easy to jump to the intellectual conclusion that what the thought is about is real. And the belief can emerge that ‘I am the body’, or ‘I am awareness’, or ‘I am the sense of aliveness’, etc. So instead of identifying with a separate entity, now there is an identification with the notion of awareness or aliveness.

And no matter what the identification is about, it’s always fictional.
V: Is this ‘sense of being aware’ is still there?
E: Yeah, it comes and goes.
V: If yes, how does it sensed/felt?
E: It's a sensation in my chest and stomach area usually, sometimes it feels like it's some interior boundary of the body.
OK, let’s look into this.

So what is ACTUALLY present, what is actually happening is a sensation.
But thoughts label this sensation of ‘sense of being aware’.

Do you see if you pay attention to the content of thoughts then that sensation magically becomes something more than what it actually is?

Investigate the sensation in the chest and the stomach area.
Does the raw sensation itself communicate in any way that ‘Hey, I am the sense of being aware’?
Is this sensation actually (literally) aware?
When you stay with those sensations, what is it that you can actually find there?

Do you find there a self?
Or a me? Or an I?
Is there an entity there?
Is there ANYONE inside the body?


Please search through all the possibilities listed above. Look very carefully. Don’t just think, but literally search for a self/I/me/etc.

Please stand up, and slowly start to walk. While walking, please scan through the whole body, and search for an entity, or a center, or somebody that is moving the body from inside, pulling stings and moving the legs and arm.
Let me know what you find.

Is there ANYONE inside the skin moving the body, thinking thoughts, making decisions, feeling the sensations?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Fri May 08, 2020 1:25 am

Do you see if you pay attention to the content of thoughts then that sensation magically becomes something more than what it actually is?
Yes.
Does the raw sensation itself communicate in any way that ‘Hey, I am the sense of being aware’?
No, not at all, it's just another sensation.
Is this sensation actually (literally) aware?
No.
When you stay with those sensations, what is it that you can actually find there?
That it's no different than any other sensation, thoughts are what gives it some special meaning.
Do you find there a self?
No.
Or a me? Or an I?
No.
Is there an entity there?
No.
Is there ANYONE inside the body?
No.
Is there ANYONE inside the skin moving the body, thinking thoughts, making decisions, feeling the sensations?
No, I can't find anyone making any of it happen. It's all just happening on it's own.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Fri May 08, 2020 1:33 am

Hi Echoz,
V: Is there ANYONE inside the skin moving the body, thinking thoughts, making decisions, feeling the sensations?
E: No, I can't find anyone making any of it happen. It's all just happening on it's own.
But does it feel like as if there were a you being somewhere inside the body?
Can you locate where the center of me seems to be?
What makes that area of the body/sensations into a center?
How do you know that spot/sensation is you?
What makes that spot/sensation you?


Please explore this in your everyday experience, not just when you sit down for looking.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sat May 09, 2020 12:30 am

I'm going to look for another day and write back tomorrow.

Thanks!

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sat May 09, 2020 12:46 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sat May 09, 2020 11:24 pm

But does it feel like as if there were a you being somewhere inside the body?
Yes.
Can you locate where the center of me seems to be?
The center of "me" seems to be in the head.
What makes that area of the body/sensations into a center?
When I look directly at it I can't find any special reason. Could just be because it's the center of seeing, thinking and hearing, but I'm just getting into thought with that lol
How do you know that spot/sensation is you?
I don't, there's just a sensation that arises.
What makes that spot/sensation you?
I can't find anything that makes that spot me, there's just an assumption it is, when I look at it I can't find anything that says it's me.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sun May 10, 2020 1:18 am

Hi Echoz,
The center of "me" seems to be in the head…..there's just a sensation that arises.
Do those sensations at the seeming center are the experiencer?
Does life happening to those sensations?


Put an object before you and look at it.

Do those sensations at the seeming center are looking and seeing the object?
Where does seeing happen FROM? Find the exact location.

Is seeing a doing or a happening?

Is there a seer, or there is only what is seen?


Now listen to whatever sounds are present.

What is hearing the sound exactly?
The sensations labelled ‘head’ or the sensations labelled ‘ears’ hearing it?
Can a sensation hear?

Where does hearing happening FROM? Find the exact location.

Is hearing a doing or a happening?

Is there a hearer, or there is only the sound?


Experiment with these several times before replying. Make sure you are 100% certain of your replies.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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