Seeing that frees

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:25 pm

Viven,

I have been having a hell of time trying to writing this lol.

Thoughts are just arising and passing away. Sometimes thoughts will be engaging other times just float by. There just isn't as much interest in thoughts as before. It's like nothing really changed, but thoughts are just not seen as important or true at the moment. I'm not sure what it's all about, there was no "aha" moment or anything, just a slightly different view appeared.

I'm not even sure what else to say really. I keep coming back to direct experience throughout the day, although it's not like I ever leave it. Life is just continuing to happen, thoughts of the past and potential future continue to come up, but that's fine. The self is still there selfing, but what else could it ever do?

I guess that's it for now.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:41 am

Hi Echoz,

Could you please try to give a description of how the self shows up in your everyday experience, with examples from your life?

Do you still believe that there is a self/I/me directing live, making decision, moving the body, thinking thoughts, feeling sensations and emotions?


As I said, I cannot help if you don’t tell me what is going on. I understand that it’s not easy, but please try.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:11 pm

Could you please try to give a description of how the self shows up in your everyday experience, with examples from your life?
There is an assumption/experience here that "I am the body". I have been looking at this experience throughout the day, trying to see if it is true. The senses are centered around the body, but that doesn't mean I am the body, or that there is something inside the body. I keep coming back to this "I am the body" question and looking for what the doer of the body is. And I can't find a damn thing, but that might be the issue, looking to find a "thing" at all.
Do you still believe that there is a self/I/me directing live, making decision, moving the body, thinking thoughts, feeling sensations and emotions?
I wouldn't say there is a belief in that here, but there also isn't a clear seeing with no doubt that it's a different way.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:10 am

Hi Echoz,
There is an assumption/experience here that "I am the body".
Let’s start to investigate the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating the seeming ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:53 am

Going to work on this more often tomorrow and will write back.

Thanks

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:00 am

All right, thank you for letting me know
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:46 am

Can it be known how tall the body is?
No, the sense of the body kinda falls away.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No, the body just disappears into different sensations.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No boundary, just experience.
Is there an inside or an outside?
At times it felt like there was an inside, but that concept fades away and it's just sensations arising and passing away.
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
Inside the "body", but this would dissipate and there would be no inside or outside.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
Just this sensing object.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Sensations arising and passing away.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:58 am

Hi Echoz,

You did a nice looking.
V: What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
E: Sensations arising and passing away.
Yes, exactly.

Close your eyes, and scan through the body. Look for every sensation that is present right now. You will find, that as you scan the body, a visual thought ‘shows’ the location of attention, so to speak.

If you look very carefully, you’ll find that there are some parts where the sensations are really strong, but there are other areas where there is hardly any sensation going on, or even nothing. So even the sensations what are labelled as ‘body’ cannot be experienced as a whole. I mean you cannot feel all ‘parts’ of the body at the same time. There is only a constructed visual thought and with the label ‘body’, and the belief that the body is a whole unit, always present, always available. But this cannot be further from the truth. Body as such exists only as a construct.
Can you see this?


Color and shape is NOT the AE (actual experience). of body, but the AE of color only.
The visual thought labelled ‘body’ is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of a thought only.
Sensations are NOT the AE of body, but the AE of sensations only.
The appearance of movement is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of colors and sensations only.

There is ZERO experience of body.
Body as such cannot be experienced.
Body is just a mental construct ( = thought), nothing else.
The body is just a conceptual overlay on the experience of colors and sensations. Can you see this?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:14 am

Sorry for not replying, I was having issues connecting to the website yesterday.
Body as such exists only as a construct.
Can you see this?
Yes, the body is just another concept.

The body is just a conceptual overlay on the experience of colors and sensations. Can you see this?
Yes. The concept of the body is just another thought assumed to be true. When looking at direct experience of the so called "body" it's actually just the sensations arising and passing away with no need for this "body" concept.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:28 am

Hi Echoz,
Sorry for not replying, I was having issues connecting to the website yesterday.
Sometimes there are issues with the website, but usually it’s transient, so if you try it later it might work.
Yes. The concept of the body is just another thought assumed to be true. When looking at direct experience of the so called "body" it's actually just the sensations arising and passing away with no need for this "body" concept.
Yes, nice looking.

Several days ago you wrote:
There is an assumption/experience here that "I am the body".
So look into this.

Can an ‘I’ be found other than the thought ‘I’?
And can a body be found other than a concept/thought?

Is there an actual, real, inherent ‘I’?
Is there an actual body beyond the concept of the body? Is there anything else to the body than being a thought label on sensations?

"I am the body" - is this statement true?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:58 am

Can an ‘I’ be found other than the thought ‘I’?
No.
And can a body be found other than a concept/thought?
No.
Is there an actual, real, inherent ‘I’?
No, when I look it's clear there is no "I". Yet, when not consciously looking at direct experience the clearness is gone. It's almost like I don't believe it, but really there's nothing there that could believe it.
Is there an actual body beyond the concept of the body? Is there anything else to the body than being a thought label on sensations?
I can't see the anything beyond the concept of the body, it's just sensations arising and the assumption that those sensations are of this constructed body.
"I am the body" - is this statement true?
No, when looking directly at the "body" it's seen as just this assumption.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:47 am

Hi Echoz,
No, when I look it's clear there is no "I". Yet, when not consciously looking at direct experience the clearness is gone. It's almost like I don't believe it, but really there's nothing there that could believe it.
So do you BELIEVE that there is a real self, an I, other than the thought/words of I/me/my/mine?

Please really look into this. Spend a whole day investigating repeatedly if you believe in the existence of a separate self/I.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Fri May 01, 2020 12:53 am

So do you BELIEVE that there is a real self, an I, other than the thought/words of I/me/my/mine?
No, I couldn't find a thing that believes it lol. Sometimes thoughts of doubt arise, but thoughts are always coming and going.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Fri May 01, 2020 4:10 am

Hi Echoz,
Sometimes thoughts of doubt arise,
And what is it exactly that is having doubts?
What do doubting thoughts belong to?
What is it that is thinking doubting thoughts?
but thoughts are always coming and going.
What is it exactly that sees thoughts coming and going?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sat May 02, 2020 1:23 am

And what is it exactly that is having doubts?
The doubts that arise just seem surface level and upon looking at them fall away.
What do doubting thoughts belong to?
When I look and try and find something this doubting belongs to.
What is it that is thinking doubting thoughts?
I can't find anything actively doing the thinking, it's all just appearing in this.
What is it exactly that sees thoughts coming and going?
Nothing sees it, there is just an awareness always present. Always this sense of being aware/alive.


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