Seeing that frees

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:49 am

Hi Echoz,

If any time the seeming ‘sense of self’ or 'aliveness/beingness' appears, inquire (even if for just 10-30 seconds) what is actually felt there.
Do this every time it comes up and let me know what you find.

Also, here are some other pointers for you.

Think of something that makes you happy.

Is there a Echoz creating that emotion?
Is there a thought creating that emotion?
Or an image creating it?
What is creating it?

Is there a Echoz feeling happy?

Did the experience of happiness last, or some other feeling came up after some time?
How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the happiness change to something else?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:06 am

Do this every time it comes up and let me know what you find.
When I look it just feels like the body or sensation in the body.
Is there a Echoz creating that emotion?
No, there's no me creating it.
Is there a thought creating that emotion?
No, the thought and emotion are independent.
Or an image creating it?
No.
What is creating it?
There's nothing creating it, it simply is there until it isn't then it only exist in thoughts of it. The direct experience isn't about beginning or end.
Is there a Echoz feeling happy?
Happiness arises, but not to a person.
Did the experience of happiness last, or some other feeling came up after some time?
Another feeling came up soon enough.
How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the happiness change to something else?
Thoughts and feeling just seem to arise spontaneously.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:39 am

Hi Echoz,

Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a car.

How does the visual thought of a car arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a car to appear?
How do you make that happen?

Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of cars are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?

If not, how does that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?

Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the car to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?

And what about its size and brand? Is the size and the brand your doing?

Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a car?


Please repeat this exercise with different objects before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:22 am

Viven,

Going to give this another day and report back.

Thanks!

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:33 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:38 am

How does the visual thought of a car arrive? Is it your doing?
I sit, close my eyes, the question is remember and the car just appears. Thought comes up with an image of the car and then thoughts about the image come up.
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a car to appear?
Close my eyes, remember the question or there is just an intent present, the car appears, the car is usually my own but sometimes it's different.
How do you make that happen?
I can't find something making it happen. It seems like thought are doing it, but they just come and go on their own.
Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of cars are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?
No.
If not, how does that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?
Yes, usually my car or one of my family members cars. Thought or intent comes up to think of a car and the image appears and goes away. Then different cars come and thoughts keep coming up about them. Thoughts about doing this right come up.
Are you the chooser of the color?
No the color's appear as they are, once it appears they can change or a thought about changing the color comes up.
What do you do EXACTLY to the car to be a certain color?
A thought or intent comes up and the color changes.
And what about its size and brand? Is the size and the brand your doing?
Just seems to be what appears in thought. Usually cars that are known in memory.

Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a car?
I can see thought's or images arising and passing away. There seems to be some intent arising when completing the exercise. I can find some permanent thing, it's all changing.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:25 am

Hi Echoz,

With several of my questions, you didn’t reply directly to the questions. So I would like to ask you to read my questions carefully, look for what is being pointed at. Every question is a pointer for you where to look.

So please do the exercise again for a few times, and look carefully with each question.
V: How does the visual thought of a car arrive? Is it your doing?
E: I sit, close my eyes, the question is remember and the car just appears. Thought comes up with an image of the car and then thoughts about the image come up.
You didn’t reply to the second question, whether it’s your doing or not. So?
V: What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a car to appear?
E: Close my eyes, remember the question or there is just an intent present, the car appears, the car is usually my own but sometimes it's different.
You described what happens, but you didn’t tell what you personally do in order for the image to appear? How do you make it to happen?

You sit, OK, then there is an intent there, but what DO YOU MAKE the car to appear?

I can't find something making it happen. It seems like thought are doing it, but they just come and go on their own.
HOW do you know that thoughts are making the car to appear?
Can you observe (literally) as thoughts making the car to appear?

Are thoughts some kind of agencies with powers of making other thoughts to come and go?

What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?

V: If not, how does that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?
E: Yes, usually my car or one of my family members cars. Thought or intent comes up to think of a car and the image appears and goes away. Then different cars come and thoughts keep coming up about them. Thoughts about doing this right come up.
You didn’t really reply to the questions. Please read them more carefully in the future.
V: What do you do EXACTLY to the car to be a certain color?
E: A thought or intent comes up and the color changes.
But the question isn't about thoughts and intentions, but rather what YOU PERSONALLY DO in order a car be a certain color?
V: Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a car?
E: I can see thought's or images arising and passing away. There seems to be some intent arising when completing the exercise. I can find some permanent thing, it's all changing.
You didn’t answer the question at all. I intentionally ask certain things to look at to help you to see through the illusion.

Can you observe MIND CREATING the image of a car?
Can you observe an I CREATING the image of a car?
Dan you observe a SELF CREATING the image of a car?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:49 pm

You didn’t reply to the second question, whether it’s your doing or not. So?
No, can't find any me doing it.
You described what happens, but you didn’t tell what you personally do in order for the image to appear? How do you make it to happen?
I don't do anything to make it happen, it's just appearing.
You sit, OK, then there is an intent there, but what DO YOU MAKE the car to appear?
There's nothing there to make the car appear, it's just arising and passing away.
HOW do you know that thoughts are making the car to appear?
It's just an assumption that arose in thought lol. The car is appearing, don't need to keep making it more complicated.
Can you observe (literally) as thoughts making the car to appear?
No, it's something that is only seen in hindsight. That story in time of thoughts causing other thoughts.
Are thoughts some kind of agencies with powers of making other thoughts to come and go?
Thoughts just occur, no power, no agency.
What can a thought do?
A thought can't do anything, it just is.
Does a thought have volition?
No, it's just an appearance.
But the question isn't about thoughts and intentions, but rather what YOU PERSONALLY DO in order a car be a certain color?
There's no one doing anything for the car to change. It is seemly happening.
Can you observe MIND CREATING the image of a car?
No.
Can you observe an I CREATING the image of a car?
No.
Can you observe a SELF CREATING the image of a car?
No, can't see it in direct experience.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:51 am

Hi Echoz,

You did a nice looking.
V: HOW do you know that thoughts are making the car to appear?
E: It's just an assumption that arose in thought lol. The car is appearing, don't need to keep making it more complicated.
Exactly.

Is there anything regarding thoughts that you are not completely clear about? Or something that you would like to look at?
Are thoughts still sticky?

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience?
That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate raw experience?

And can you see that the me-thought is not different for any other ideas/concepts? That the me-thought is also just an added extra (by thoughts) overlaying (on top of) the immediate experience?

That the ‘me’ is just a thought narration? Nothing more?
Is there any doubt that it might be otherwise?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:20 am

Is there anything regarding thoughts that you are not completely clear about? Or something that you would like to look at?
Thoughts just come and go, any concerns about them are just in thought.
Are thoughts still sticky?
Some stay longer than others.
Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience?
Yes.
That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate raw experience?
Yeah, just an added layer on top commentating about the experience.

And can you see that the me-thought is not different for any other ideas/concepts? That the me-thought is also just an added extra (by thoughts) overlaying (on top of) the immediate experience?
Yeah, the whole timeline and story is just like any other thought or idea.
That the ‘me’ is just a thought narration? Nothing more?
Yeah, just the commentary over the direct experience.
Is there any doubt that it might be otherwise?
Not at the moment.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:03 am

Hi Echoz,

Are you saying that there has been a SHIFT FROM INTELLECTUAL understanding of the self being only an illusion to an EXPERIENTIAL one?

Are you 100% certain without any doubt that it’s seen EXPERIENTIALLY that the self is just imagined to be there?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:14 am

Are you saying that there has been a SHIFT FROM INTELLECTUAL understanding of the self being only an illusion to an EXPERIENTIAL one?
There's an experience of just not grasping onto thoughts so much, just the thoughts coming and going, but I wouldn't say the latter.
Are you 100% certain without any doubt that it’s seen EXPERIENTIALLY that the self is just imagined to be there?
Doubts is still here, but it just comes up in thoughts and can be looked at. The whole story/timeline is still feeling real right now, I keep trying to just look at what can be experienced right now.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:21 am

Hi Echoz,

I find your comments very short. I can help only, if you give me more information what is going on for you. There are only your written words I can work with.

So please write me several paragraphs about where you are at the moment, how the self shows up in your everyday life, be very detailed, so I can point based on your comments. Otherwise I’m just shooting blind, which won’t be too much worth for you.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
Posts: 110
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:54 am

Sorry for not writing back, I'll give you a write up tomorrow.

Just want to try and make it clear.

Thanks for all the help thus far!

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Vivien
Posts: 7049
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:02 am

All right, I'm looking forward to your reply.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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