Seeing that frees

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:50 am

Hi Echoz,
Yes, it feels like I am doing things and things are happening to me.
OK. This is what you have to focus on. It doesn’t matter how often you can see no self when looking, if it still feels that I am the doer and things are happening to me.

So you have to shift your investigation into your daily life. Look especially when it FEELS that I am the doer, I am the thinker, I am feeling this or that, and things are happening to me.

All right? Will you shift your inquiry into your daily life?

For today, let’s focus on the feeling of I am doing this or that. That I am the doer. There is a doer, and it’s me.

When you walk, pay close attention to what is making the body move.
Is there something or someone inside the body, like a central controller, which makes the body move?
Which decides by which leg take the first step?
And what lifts the leg?
Is there something orchestrating how to walk?


When having your dinner, observe how the hands move, how the next piece of food in chosen to eat.
What is lifting the arm?
Is there a central controller orchestrating how to eat?
And what is choosing the next piece of food to eat?


When washing your hands, how is it decided how to move the hands, in which order to move them, how long to wash them, whether to use soap or not?

When you turn you head left or right, what makes that movement happen?
And what decides to move the head at all?

Investigate even the smallest things that are happening, and notice if there is any doing at all, or everything is just happening on its own. Let me know what you find.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:07 am

Hey Viven,

Going to give this one more day of looking.

Thanks

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:12 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:23 am

Is there something or someone inside the body, like a central controller, which makes the body move?
No, it just happens automatically, no controller is needed.
Which decides by which leg take the first step?
There is no deciding to take a first step, a first step is just taken without the need to decide.
And what lifts the leg?
Same as with the first step, the leg lifts, no need for anything to lift it.
Is there something orchestrating how to walk?
No, it's happening automatically.

When having your dinner, observe how the hands move, how the next piece of food in chosen to eat.
What is lifting the arm?
The arm just lifts, it's an automatic process.
Is there a central controller orchestrating how to eat?
No.
And what is choosing the next piece of food to eat?
Nothing is choosing the nest piece, it's just chosen.
When washing your hands, how is it decided how to move the hands, in which order to move them, how long to wash them, whether to use soap or not?
The washing happens automatically, sometimes thoughts come up like "should wash my hands longer" and it becomes a longer wash, other times nothing.
When you turn you head left or right, what makes that movement happen?
It's like the movement is always a reaction to some other thing. I read "When you turn your head left or right..." then turn my head, I see something in the corner of my eye and turn my head, I hear a sound and turn my head. But really that goes with all the above questions too, it's all this reaction, or maybe "action" would be a more fit word, it's this action occurring.
And what decides to move the head at all?
Nothing decides, but the head moves.

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Vivien
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:24 am

Hi Echoz,

Does it still feel in your everyday life (when not looking) that I am moving my body, I am thinking, I am deciding?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:52 am

Does it still feel in your everyday life (when not looking) that I am moving my body, I am thinking, I am deciding?
It still does feel like there is the controller of action when not consciously looking for it.

It's like I will look and not find anything, then attention will move into thoughts and start identifying with them.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:38 am

Hi Echoz,
It still does feel like there is the controller of action when not consciously looking for it.
You have to look in the midst of your everyday life. Make it into a habit. Look every single time when it feels that there is a controller.

Let me know what happens when you make looking into a habit.
It's like I will look and not find anything, then attention will move into thoughts and start identifying with them.
So is there an agency, called attention?

Attention is something separate from thought?

How else could it move into thoughts, without being a separate thing on its own?


And attention is doing the identifying? So attention is not just separate but an agency too, who performs the act of identifying?

Be very careful not to think through the replies, but actually look at this ‘thing’ you call attention.

How does attention itself is experienced?

Is this seeming attention the self, is it the I?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:23 am

Hey Viven,

Going to give this another day.

Thanks.

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Vivien
Posts: 7049
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:43 am

All right, thank you for letting me know :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:48 am

Let me know what happens when you make looking into a habit.
Work in progress.
So is there an agency, called attention?
No, after looking there doesn't seem to be. It's more like "whats happening" is just assumed to be this "attention", so really attention is not some different thing other than what is.
Attention is something separate from thought?
There really doesn't seem to be this "attention".
How else could it move into thoughts, without being a separate thing on its own?
There's nothing moving into thoughts. Sometimes thoughts are just appearing and that was made into this "attention goes into thought" concept.
And attention is doing the identifying? So attention is not just separate but an agency too, who performs the act of identifying?
There is not attention to identify with a thought, just thoughts arising and passing until something else shows up.

How does attention itself is experienced?
Attention is experienced as what is happening. I guess it was seen as a sort of filter before, but really it's not necessary.
Is this seeming attention the self, is it the I?
The "seeming attention" does seem like the self. Really there is this effortless happening and attention seems to be layered over that in a way, but once the attention is notice it falls away.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:51 am

Hi Echoz,
The "seeming attention" does seem like the self. Really there is this effortless happening and attention seems to be layered over that in a way, but once the attention is notice it falls away.
So is there an attention after all, who/what notices?

What is doing the noticing?
Is noticing a doing or a happening?


Look in your everyday life. This investigation has no much value if it's seen only when looking.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Echoz
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:01 am

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:35 am

So is there an attention after all, who/what notices?
No, there is no attention when looked at, there can "seem" like there's an attention, but really looking it's seen as not real. There no thing to notice it, but noticing does occur.
What is doing the noticing?
There's nothing doing noticing, it just happens.
Is noticing a doing or a happening?
A happening, there's nothing there to do it.

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Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:14 am

Hi Echoz,

Several posts earlier you wrote:
Yes, it feels like I am doing things and things are happening to me.
Is this still how it seems to be in daily life? That things are happening to me?

Is life happening to Echoz?

How does it show up? How does ‘life happening to me’ shows up?

What is the difference between ‘me’ and ‘Echoz’?

Is there a me + life?
Is there Echoz + life?

Where is this me that life is happening to? Where?


Please don’t just write what is seen when looking. We both know that things are pretty clear when you look. What we are investigating now is what happens when there is no looking. When just living normal everyday life.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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